[PYTHON META-SIG] Re: pattern-sig -- mission statement
Geoffrey Furnish
furnish@laura.llnl.gov
Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:46:07 -0800
lemburg@uni-duesseldorf.de writes:
> Ok, I'll give it another try. I inserted one more sentence in the
> mission statement that Dinu originally posted. Hope that fixes the
> 'fluffy clouds' critique put forward by Barry.
>
> Comments anyone ?
Okay, I will pipe up. I was generally unimpressed with last weeks
dialog which put Barry on the defensive owing to the attitudes of the
Pattern SIG proponents. Finally, this note has pushed me over the
edge. Here is my view of what is proposed.
I find this mission statement to be drivvel-ridden, excessively
loquacious, and generally poor. The SIG charter is not a place for
advocacty or one-upsmanship.
To "help" out, here is my blow by blow critique of the mission
statement.
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pattern-SIG Mission Statement
>
> PATTERN-SIG, a Special Interest Group for using Python with
> emphasis on idioms, patterns and frameworks.
Excellent start.
> This list has been created to provide a forum for discussing
> issues related to using design techniques and practices
> together with Python.
Good.
> The people who initiated this forum
> simply believe that for various reasons Python is a wonderful
> language that makes implementing and thinking about
> higher-level design concepts very easy.
I do not need to read Python advocacy. Chop this sentence.
> These concepts range
> from the small-scale programming idioms and 'tricks' to
> medium-scale design patterns, usually comprising entities of
> several classes, to large-scale designs based on frameworks,
> often combining several patterns themselves.
I generally approve of the point, but it should be stated with half as
many words.
> Some of the
> reasons for believing in Python's appropriateness for this
> programming-in-the-large area are the following ones. Python
Advocacy. Chop this.
> is fully dynamically typed, which reduces the need to declare
> variables to zero.
Total nonsense.
> Python code can therefore be typed much
> faster allowing for playing with the design, something rather
> impossible to do with statically typed languages.
Complete garbage. This is wrong, and offensive.
> Being based
> on indentation, Python's syntax is minimalistic and clean,
> making it easy to read (and write) code and recognize
> structures even when produced by others.
True, but totally irrelevant to the issue of programming with
patterns. Chop it.
> Python is fully
> object-oriented and lends itself much more to designing real
> systems that do scale far better than any other bastardized
> version of (so-called) object-oriented scripted languages.
Worthless posturing, offensive, evidence of prejudicial
pig-headedness, etc. Chop it.
> Python can be regarded as a pretty ideal candidate for a
> first language, making it easy to bundle design concepts like
> those incorporated by patterns and frameworks right from the
> start into developers and projects.
Unnecessary advocacy. Chop it.
> On this list we want to discuss along the lines of "Python
> applied to higher-level design of programs", emphasizing
> questions and issues,
Good start, ...
> not to be learned from the study of a
> programming language alone, but only from the interaction
> with its users' experience and projects.
but rotten end. Preachy, chop it.
> We do believe that
> there is valuable design experience to be communicated on
> several levels (idioms, patterns, frameworks) and we want to
> see that happen here.
Redundant, but otherwise non offensive. (But chop "we do believe
believe").
> Mastering a given language is just one
> part of the equation. Accessing a body of established design
> knowledge is the other one.
People do not read charter statements for professional nannyisms.
Chop this stuff.
> To get things going people contributing here should revisit
> their projects, either mentally or even in code, perhaps, and
> ask themselves what it is they learned in a specific case,
> how they solved a situation, what trick they used and, of
> course, how this could be reproduced by them or others in a
> useful way.
People do not need you to tell them how to manage their time in order
to participate constructively in a discussion forum. Instead say
something like:
Participants are invited to share design lessons learned in the course
of Python projects, canonical design patterns (especially if expressed
in Python source code), and the like.
> More to the point, we are interested in what
> patterns have emerged within the Python community, we are
Redundant but otherwise non offensive.
> curious to see if these are similar to those developed by
Unnecessary.
> others and we'd like you be aware that you probably are
You need to drop the patronizing tone, people hate it.
> already using patterns, but that it makes much sense to be
> aware about them for your own benefit and for that of others.
Is this a guilt trip or altruism? It is very hard to tell which.
Chop it.
> If you've been using design patterns consciously, even
> better. We want to know about your experience and talk about
> patterns from various sources like those of the Gang-of-Four
> (GOF). Please share your experience with us!
Again, redundant but otherwise non offensive.
> [...]
The rest continues with the run on verbage, but did not seem otherwise
offensive.
Bottom line: I like the idea of the Pattern Sig, I absolutely loathe
the billing it would get with this charter. Chop it way way down, cut
all the 'tudinal tone, and stick to professional sounding, positively
motivated, fact-oriented statements. The whole first part (the part I
quoted and commented on) should be able to fit succinctly into two
paragraphs of non offensive technical prose, without attempting to
preach Python, bash alternatives, or schoolmaster the ignorant.
If you can put together a charter statement that doesn't make me wanna
scream when I read it, then I will be a suporter of the formation of
the SIG.
--
Geoffrey Furnish email: furnish@llnl.gov
LLNL X/ICF phone: 510-424-4227 fax: 510-423-0925
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