From gstein@lyra.org  Thu Feb  3 19:49:29 2000
From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] fyi: new sigs
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031143180.2543-100000@nebula.lyra.org>

It hasn't been mentioned here, so people may not have noticed (especially
if you weren't at IPC8) ...

Four new SIGs have been created and are awaiting people to subscribe :-).
I think most are still gearing up, although import-sig has already started
a thread.

compiler-sig
edu-sig
i18n-sig
import-sig

Their purpose should be relatively self-evident from their names.

Cheers,
-g

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/



From dascher@mindspring.com  Thu Feb  3 20:29:01 2000
From: dascher@mindspring.com (David Ascher)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:29:01 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
Message-ID: <003501bf6e85$4e6dfd00$c355cfc0@ski.org>

Hi folks.

As you might have read on python-list, I'm changing jobs.  While it's going
to involve a lot more Python, it's going to be a lot more demanding of my
time.  I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
"mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.

I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?

FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
list.	We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.

--david

I'm CC'ing the meta-sig because I suppose it's a meta-sig issue.



From ivanlan@callware.com  Thu Feb  3 20:57:29 2000
From: ivanlan@callware.com (Ivan Van Laningham)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:57:29 -0700
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
References: <003501bf6e85$4e6dfd00$c355cfc0@ski.org>
Message-ID: <3899EBB9.45563575@callware.com>

Hi David et al.--

David Ascher wrote:
> 
> Hi folks.
> 
> As you might have read on python-list, I'm changing jobs.  While it's going
> to involve a lot more Python, it's going to be a lot more demanding of my
> time.  I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> 
> I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?
> 
> FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
> have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
> evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
> list.   We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
> to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
> 'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.
> 
> --david
> 
> I'm CC'ing the meta-sig because I suppose it's a meta-sig issue.

I'd be willing to do it, assuming that it can be done remotely, but with
the understanding that I would make no changes right awa, and would not
be able to be very much involved for a couple of months.  After April,
my workload might shift enough that I could take care of some of the
five dozen projects I want to get going; mailing-list stuff being near
the top.

However, if one of you other three would like it and have the time, then
by all means take it.

<unterritorial>-ly y'rs,
Ivan
----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
Callware Technologies, Inc.
ivanlan@callware.com
ivanlan@home.com
http://www.pauahtun.org
See also: 
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings.html
Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
----------------------------------------------


From deirdre@deirdre.net  Thu Feb  3 21:19:48 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:19:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <3899EBB9.45563575@callware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031318050.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:

> David Ascher wrote:

> > I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> > "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> > those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> > traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> > 
> > I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> > of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?

I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
wouldn't be a *bad* idea.

> > FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
> > have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
> > evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
> > list.   We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
> > to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
> > 'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.

> I'd be willing to do it, assuming that it can be done remotely, but with
> the understanding that I would make no changes right awa, and would not
> be able to be very much involved for a couple of months.  After April,
> my workload might shift enough that I could take care of some of the
> five dozen projects I want to get going; mailing-list stuff being near
> the top.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



From ivanlan@callware.com  Thu Feb  3 21:26:26 2000
From: ivanlan@callware.com (Ivan Van Laningham)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:26:26 -0700
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031318050.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>
Message-ID: <3899F282.ECD6DE0F@callware.com>

Hi All--

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> 
> > David Ascher wrote:
> 
> > > I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> > > "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> > > those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> > > traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> > >
> > > I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> > > of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?
> 
> I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
> responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
> though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
> wouldn't be a *bad* idea.
> 

Couldn't we adopt/adapt the standard Python FAQ for this?  It seems like
a lot of work has already been done that could be reused, if not stolen
wholesale.

<stealing-is-better-than-borrowing>-ly y'rs,
Ivan
----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
Callware Technologies, Inc.
ivanlan@callware.com
ivanlan@home.com
http://www.pauahtun.org
See also: 
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings.html
Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
----------------------------------------------


From deirdre@deirdre.net  Thu Feb  3 21:31:37 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <3899F282.ECD6DE0F@callware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:

> > I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
> > responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
> > though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
> > wouldn't be a *bad* idea.
> 
> Couldn't we adopt/adapt the standard Python FAQ for this?  It seems like
> a lot of work has already been done that could be reused, if not stolen
> wholesale.

I meant for the types of questions that are frequently asked on the Tutor
list that may not be general Python questions. Otherwise, they should be
incorporated into the main FAQ and referenced from any Tutor FAQ.

One of the questions that's commonly asked, for example, is if Python can
be used for "hacking" (usually by script-kiddies).

The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
it.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



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To: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Cc: Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan@callware.com>,
	David Ascher <dascher@mindspring.com>, skip@mojam.com,
	alan.gauld@bt.com, meta-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <200002032134.QAA00211@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> > The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
> > people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
> > it.
> 
> Aren't those answers in the autoresponder message?  I think they are
> for help@python.org.

Ah, quite possibly so.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



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To: Deirdre Saoirse <deirdre@deirdre.net>
Cc: Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan@callware.com>,
	David Ascher <dascher@mindspring.com>, skip@mojam.com,
	alan.gauld@bt.com, meta-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:31:37 PST."
             <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org> 
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:34:37 -0500
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> I meant for the types of questions that are frequently asked on the Tutor
> list that may not be general Python questions. Otherwise, they should be
> incorporated into the main FAQ and referenced from any Tutor FAQ.
> 
> One of the questions that's commonly asked, for example, is if Python can
> be used for "hacking" (usually by script-kiddies).
> 
> The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
> people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
> it.

Aren't those answers in the autoresponder message?  I think they are
for help@python.org.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)




From dscherer@cmu.edu  Sun Feb  6 15:24:00 2000
From: dscherer@cmu.edu (David Scherer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:24:00 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] Split the edu-SIG?
In-Reply-To: <200002061358.IAA17309@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
Message-ID: <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>

I think there's a deep issue raised by Terry Gabriel's complaint.  There are
two large issues which need to be discussed regarding "Python in education":

1.  Lesson planning, evangelism, course content creation.

2.  Tool improvements, such as IDE enhancements, specialized libraries,
frameworks for problem domains, and, less significantly, future changes to
the language itself.

Clearly these topics are related.  However, there are some obvious problems
with having both of these topics discussed in the same forum:

1.  People who want to start teaching python NOW couldn't care less about
tool development because it will happen too slowly.  They will look on
discussions of (2) as distractions at best.

2.  Similarly, those of us who believe that some tool development is
absolutely a prerequisite to using Python in our environments or for CP4E
find discussion of (1) a little too premature to be helpful.

3.  Discussion of (2) is likely to become excessively technical for some of
the people in this forum.

4.  At least right now, the traffic on the list is much too high for anyone
without procmail and a threaded mail reader.

I am therefore convinced that this forum is inappropriate for discussing
(2).  I therefore put the following question to the SIG:

1.  Is anyone else interested in seriously discussing new or enhanced Python
libraries and tools to make Python more usable in educational settings, or
in a specific curriculum?

2.  If so, is there a better forum to discuss these issues?

3.  If not, should one be created?

If the answer to (1) is no, then let's make that explicit in the SIG
charter, and restrict discussion of tool development to private
communication channels.  Otherwise, let's find another forum.

I'm deeply sorry that anyone felt it necessary to leave the SIG because of
excessive discussion of language issues.  However, I am also aware that
there are several different groups, including Guido at CNRI and our group at
Carnegie Mellon, actively engaged in the development of Python-based
environments for education, and I think there should be *some* forum for us
to communicate with each other and with people interested in applying our
work.

Dave Scherer



From smorris@nexen.com  Sun Feb  6 16:27:05 2000
From: smorris@nexen.com (Steve Morris)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:27:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [meta-sig] [Edu-sig] Split the edu-SIG?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>
References: <200002061358.IAA17309@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
 <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <200002061627.LAA07081@brocade.nexen.com>

Dave,

You are making valid points but I think you are rushing a little. I
expect that the current flood of traffic will settle down a lot in a
week or so as people finish stating their initial interests and
objectives. It may be that when the traffic settles we can handle both
threads. There are not completely exclusive. Tool development needs to
be guided by the practical experience of those on the ground trying to
teach. Those on the ground need to understand the possibilities of
what tool people can deliver in the future.

By the way I am clearly on the tool development side but would hate to
move forward without significant feedback from the intended users. 

I also don't think the dichotomy is as clear as you state it. I
suspect that most people are more in the middle. Where do you put
such things as creation of examples. How about packaging examples with
the interpreter, ide and documentation in an easy to deploy package.

I would define your dichotomy as more of a continuous spectrum with
at least these tentative breakdowns:

1) People wanting to use existing software unchanged and looking for
ways to do that.

2) People looking for simple short term enhancements that improve
their ability to deploy in the short term.

3) Longer term ideas of varying scales.

Plese don't try to define this in polarizing us and them terms.

Steve

David Scherer writes:
 > I think there's a deep issue raised by Terry Gabriel's complaint.  There are
 > two large issues which need to be discussed regarding "Python in education":
 > 
 > 1.  Lesson planning, evangelism, course content creation.
 > 
 > 2.  Tool improvements, such as IDE enhancements, specialized libraries,
 > frameworks for problem domains, and, less significantly, future changes to
 > the language itself.
 > 
 > Clearly these topics are related.  However, there are some obvious problems
 > with having both of these topics discussed in the same forum:
 > 
 > 1.  People who want to start teaching python NOW couldn't care less about
 > tool development because it will happen too slowly.  They will look on
 > discussions of (2) as distractions at best.
 > 
 > 2.  Similarly, those of us who believe that some tool development is
 > absolutely a prerequisite to using Python in our environments or for CP4E
 > find discussion of (1) a little too premature to be helpful.
 > 
 > 3.  Discussion of (2) is likely to become excessively technical for some of
 > the people in this forum.
 > 
 > 4.  At least right now, the traffic on the list is much too high for anyone
 > without procmail and a threaded mail reader.
 > 
 > I am therefore convinced that this forum is inappropriate for discussing
 > (2).  I therefore put the following question to the SIG:
 > 
 > 1.  Is anyone else interested in seriously discussing new or enhanced Python
 > libraries and tools to make Python more usable in educational settings, or
 > in a specific curriculum?
 > 
 > 2.  If so, is there a better forum to discuss these issues?
 > 
 > 3.  If not, should one be created?
 > 
 > If the answer to (1) is no, then let's make that explicit in the SIG
 > charter, and restrict discussion of tool development to private
 > communication channels.  Otherwise, let's find another forum.
 > 
 > I'm deeply sorry that anyone felt it necessary to leave the SIG because of
 > excessive discussion of language issues.  However, I am also aware that
 > there are several different groups, including Guido at CNRI and our group at
 > Carnegie Mellon, actively engaged in the development of Python-based
 > environments for education, and I think there should be *some* forum for us
 > to communicate with each other and with people interested in applying our
 > work.
 > 
 > Dave Scherer
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Edu-sig mailing list
 > Edu-sig@python.org
 > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig


From kens@sightreader.com  Fri Feb 18 07:02:16 2000
From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:02:16 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
Message-ID: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>

We need an IDE sig.

There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
(my project).

Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
primary objectives of the IDE sig.

Subtopics:
- source code editors
- code generation (wizards)
- integrated debuggers
- integrated source code control
- integrated c extension module build tools

Ken Seehof




From gstein@lyra.org  Fri Feb 18 06:36:13 2000
From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:36:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002172231480.6698-100000@nebula.lyra.org>

This sounds more like a discussion forum than a "normal" SIG. Normally, we
try to define specific deliverables from a SIG. Otherwise, it just kind of
devolves into a quiet, lingering mailing list. Is there a sufficient
volume such that this needs move from (say) c.l.py to a new SIG? Can you
define some deliverables?

Cheers,
-g

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ken Seehof wrote:
> We need an IDE sig.
> 
> There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
> many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
> scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
> such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
> (my project).
> 
> Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> primary objectives of the IDE sig.
> 
> Subtopics:
> - source code editors
> - code generation (wizards)
> - integrated debuggers
> - integrated source code control
> - integrated c extension module build tools
> 
> Ken Seehof
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Meta-sig maillist  -  Meta-sig@python.org
> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig
> 

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/



From tim_one@email.msn.com  Fri Feb 18 07:21:01 2000
From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 02:21:01 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
Message-ID: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>

[Ken Seehof]
> We need an IDE sig.
> ...
> Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> primary objectives of the IDE sig.

This *may* be an idea whose time has come.  I'm wondering whether enough
developers would participate to justify it.  Mark Hammond & I worked hard to
share code between IDLE and PythonWin within the last half year, and nobody
else expressed any interest at that time.  OTOH, Just van Rossum remembered
that yesterday, so we very recently experienced a 50% boost in the level of
potential interest <wink>.

if-it's-just-us-4-a-sig-is-overkill-ly y'rs  - tim




From kens@sightreader.com  Fri Feb 18 08:16:56 2000
From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:16:56 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002172231480.6698-100000@nebula.lyra.org>
Message-ID: <38ACFFF8.501FA12B@sightreader.com>

Deliverables:

- Common library to be shared by various IDE projects
      - source code wizards
      - build tools
      - etc.
- Standards for integrating source code control systems
- Forum for ideas feature requests

I'm not sure if there is sufficient volume though.  I have noticed that
relevant discussions pop up in several other places (wxPython, edu-sig,
compiler-sig) that belong in an IDE sig.  I'd like to alleviate the danger
of duplication of effort.

The biggest problem is that IDLE is tcl-tk and some of the other stuff
going on is wxPython (my favorite), and then there's PythonWin.  On
the one hand this means it may be difficult to make a useful library that
serves everyone; on the other hand these various groups need to be
pushed to talk to each other more, and a sig might have that effect.
Who knows, maybe everyone will move over to wxPython like they
should :-)

You may be right though, there might not be enough people doing
IDE work right now to support a sig.  I do think there would be at
least three regular members that I know of.

Greg Stein wrote:

> This sounds more like a discussion forum than a "normal" SIG. Normally, we
> try to define specific deliverables from a SIG. Otherwise, it just kind of
> devolves into a quiet, lingering mailing list. Is there a sufficient
> volume such that this needs move from (say) c.l.py to a new SIG? Can you
> define some deliverables?
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ken Seehof wrote:
> > We need an IDE sig.
> >
> > There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
> > many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
> > scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
> > such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
> > (my project).
> >
> > Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> > primary objectives of the IDE sig.
> >
> > Subtopics:
> > - source code editors
> > - code generation (wizards)
> > - integrated debuggers
> > - integrated source code control
> > - integrated c extension module build tools
> >
> > Ken Seehof
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Meta-sig maillist  -  Meta-sig@python.org
> > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig
> >
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/





From mclay@nist.gov  Fri Feb 18 16:58:30 2000
From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:58:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
References: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
 <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
Message-ID: <14509.31286.92247.438666@fermi.eeel.nist.gov>

Tim Peters writes:
 > [Ken Seehof]
 > > We need an IDE sig.
 > > ...
 > > Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
 > > primary objectives of the IDE sig.
 > 
 > This *may* be an idea whose time has come.  I'm wondering whether enough
 > developers would participate to justify it.  Mark Hammond & I worked hard to
 > share code between IDLE and PythonWin within the last half year, and nobody
 > else expressed any interest at that time.  OTOH, Just van Rossum remembered
 > that yesterday, so we very recently experienced a 50% boost in the level of
 > potential interest <wink>.

I assume the various project already have individual lists.  What is
the traffic level on those lists?  Should the developers of the
various IDEs be encouraged to merge their mailing lists with the
general discussion list?  If the traffic isn't too high this might
help with the spreading of ideas.

At the developer's day meeting I suggested a GUI sharing approach that
would use XML to define the GUI layout.  This idea was inspired by the
Mozilla project and libglade.  Mozilla uses XML as a declaration
format for cross-platform layout of the chrome of their browsers.  The
Glade project started out using XML as the persistent storage for
their IDE.  Somebody then got the idea to create an embeddable library
called libglade that would use the XML definition to build the GUI on
the fly.  I think their is also a KDE project with a similar scheme
for defining the GUI.  (The libglade Python interface has become very
popular with Linux application developers.  Redhat is participating in
the development.  They use it in some of their sysadmin tools.)

Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.

Would the IDEs be willing to try sharing the layout definitions using
XML? Can the various IDEs agree on a common set of XML tags for this
task?  Th XMI specification for sharing information between the UML
modeling tools would be a good source of ideas on how this might work.


From orla_redbird@crosswinds.net  Sat Feb 19 02:01:22 2000
From: orla_redbird@crosswinds.net (Gordon Worley)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:01:22 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <14509.31286.92247.438666@fermi.eeel.nist.gov>
References: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
 <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>	<001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
Message-ID: <l03130301b4d395ff5b44@[205.164.80.5]>

At 11:58 AM -0500 2/18/2000, Michael McLay wrote:
>I assume the various project already have individual lists.  What is
>the traffic level on those lists?  Should the developers of the
>various IDEs be encouraged to merge their mailing lists with the
>general discussion list?  If the traffic isn't too high this might
>help with the spreading of ideas.

There is modest traffic on the MacPython SIG, because we like having a nice
IDE, too.  I can't, however, think of any recent discusion concerning it,
but I'm sure some other MacPy user on here will jump in a prove me wrong.
;-)

>At the developer's day meeting I suggested a GUI sharing approach that
>would use XML to define the GUI layout.  This idea was inspired by the
>Mozilla project and libglade.  Mozilla uses XML as a declaration
>format for cross-platform layout of the chrome of their browsers.  The
>Glade project started out using XML as the persistent storage for
>their IDE.  Somebody then got the idea to create an embeddable library
>called libglade that would use the XML definition to build the GUI on
>the fly.  I think their is also a KDE project with a similar scheme
>for defining the GUI.  (The libglade Python interface has become very
>popular with Linux application developers.  Redhat is participating in
>the development.  They use it in some of their sysadmin tools.)
>
>Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
>of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
>used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
>for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.
>
>Would the IDEs be willing to try sharing the layout definitions using
>XML? Can the various IDEs agree on a common set of XML tags for this
>task?  Th XMI specification for sharing information between the UML
>modeling tools would be a good source of ideas on how this might work.

Well, I can't speak for Just, because I'm not him.  However, moving the
interfaces to XML (especially for IDLE) would be nice for us Mac users
because Tk is so poorly implimented on the Mac.  Mozilla's interface works
well, so I would imagine that an XML interface for any program would be
nice to Mac users, since we would have a change of getting faithful (and
easy) ports of programs.

Oh, and back to the meta issue at hand, an IDE SIG might be nice, but maybe
it should be aimed at developing a single IDE for use on all platforms and
then tie in the development of other IDEs so that options will still exist.
Most importantly, I think a SIG might help to get something done, rather
than a bunch of us posting to the meta sig and hoping that our desires are
magically met.

- Gordon Worley
http://www.crosswinds.net/~orla_redbird/
mailto:orla_redbird@crosswinds.net




From riaan@e.co.za  Sun Feb 20 20:03:30 2000
From: riaan@e.co.za (Riaan Booysen)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:03:30 +0200
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE Sig
Message-ID: <38B04892.49BA8AD8@e.co.za>

Hello all,

I would like to add my yes vote for an IDE sig.
I'm sure more interest in this will be generated just by starting such a SIG.

If this is not going to happen (yet), where would be the place for
discussing such issues? On edu-sig because of IDLE?

Riaan (Boa Constructor)


From tim_one@email.msn.com  Tue Feb 22 07:47:43 2000
From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:47:43 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE Sig
In-Reply-To: <38B04892.49BA8AD8@e.co.za>
Message-ID: <000d01bf7d09$1a488080$e82d153f@tim>

[Riaan Booysen]
> I would like to add my yes vote for an IDE sig.
> I'm sure more interest in this will be generated just by starting
> such a SIG.
>
> If this is not going to happen (yet), where would be the place for
> discussing such issues? On edu-sig because of IDLE?

Definitely not the Edu-SIG -- except in that a high-level discussion
specifically relates to Python IDEs in education.  The majority of postings
on that SIG "should be" from teachers (however loosely defined).

comp.lang.python is the only natural existing home for it.  Such discussions
have taken place there before, but attracted little participation.  Stick
[IDE] in the subject line and see whether that's changed <wink>.

would-personally-give-an-ide-sig-a-shot-ly y'rs  - tim




From deirdre@deirdre.net  Tue Feb 22 20:15:29 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:15:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b4d395ff5b44@[205.164.80.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002221212210.29243-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Gordon Worley wrote:

> >Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
> >of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
> >used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
> >for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.
> 
> Well, I can't speak for Just, because I'm not him.  However, moving the
> interfaces to XML (especially for IDLE) would be nice for us Mac users
> because Tk is so poorly implimented on the Mac.

One of my crack-addled projects is to port Gtk (and eventually
Glade/Libglade) for the MacOS. It's starting off slowly alas.

> Oh, and back to the meta issue at hand, an IDE SIG might be nice, but maybe
> it should be aimed at developing a single IDE for use on all platforms and
> then tie in the development of other IDEs so that options will still exist.

As there's a Gtk+ port for Windows and Unix, I think this is probably the
best overall GUI toolkit?

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"That doesn't make sense in any meaning of 'sense' with which I'm
familiar"
                                     -- Aaron Malone <aaron@semo.net>



From gstein@lyra.org  Thu Feb  3 19:49:29 2000
From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] fyi: new sigs
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031143180.2543-100000@nebula.lyra.org>

It hasn't been mentioned here, so people may not have noticed (especially
if you weren't at IPC8) ...

Four new SIGs have been created and are awaiting people to subscribe :-).
I think most are still gearing up, although import-sig has already started
a thread.

compiler-sig
edu-sig
i18n-sig
import-sig

Their purpose should be relatively self-evident from their names.

Cheers,
-g

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/



From dascher@mindspring.com  Thu Feb  3 20:29:01 2000
From: dascher@mindspring.com (David Ascher)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:29:01 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
Message-ID: <003501bf6e85$4e6dfd00$c355cfc0@ski.org>

Hi folks.

As you might have read on python-list, I'm changing jobs.  While it's going
to involve a lot more Python, it's going to be a lot more demanding of my
time.  I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
"mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.

I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?

FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
list.	We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.

--david

I'm CC'ing the meta-sig because I suppose it's a meta-sig issue.



From ivanlan@callware.com  Thu Feb  3 20:57:29 2000
From: ivanlan@callware.com (Ivan Van Laningham)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:57:29 -0700
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
References: <003501bf6e85$4e6dfd00$c355cfc0@ski.org>
Message-ID: <3899EBB9.45563575@callware.com>

Hi David et al.--

David Ascher wrote:
> 
> Hi folks.
> 
> As you might have read on python-list, I'm changing jobs.  While it's going
> to involve a lot more Python, it's going to be a lot more demanding of my
> time.  I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> 
> I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?
> 
> FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
> have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
> evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
> list.   We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
> to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
> 'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.
> 
> --david
> 
> I'm CC'ing the meta-sig because I suppose it's a meta-sig issue.

I'd be willing to do it, assuming that it can be done remotely, but with
the understanding that I would make no changes right awa, and would not
be able to be very much involved for a couple of months.  After April,
my workload might shift enough that I could take care of some of the
five dozen projects I want to get going; mailing-list stuff being near
the top.

However, if one of you other three would like it and have the time, then
by all means take it.

<unterritorial>-ly y'rs,
Ivan
----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
Callware Technologies, Inc.
ivanlan@callware.com
ivanlan@home.com
http://www.pauahtun.org
See also: 
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings.html
Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
----------------------------------------------


From deirdre@deirdre.net  Thu Feb  3 21:19:48 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:19:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <3899EBB9.45563575@callware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031318050.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:

> David Ascher wrote:

> > I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> > "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> > those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> > traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> > 
> > I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> > of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?

I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
wouldn't be a *bad* idea.

> > FWIW, I think the tutor list is doing OK, but could be doing better - we
> > have  about 400 subscriptions, but the traffic is light, and I see no
> > evidence of the tutor/tutee pairings which I envisioned when I proposed this
> > list.   We do have a fairly low noise level, which is pretty good.  I'm open
> > to suggestions for how to take this list forward, be it just change the
> > 'list owner', kill the list, change the format, etc.

> I'd be willing to do it, assuming that it can be done remotely, but with
> the understanding that I would make no changes right awa, and would not
> be able to be very much involved for a couple of months.  After April,
> my workload might shift enough that I could take care of some of the
> five dozen projects I want to get going; mailing-list stuff being near
> the top.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



From ivanlan@callware.com  Thu Feb  3 21:26:26 2000
From: ivanlan@callware.com (Ivan Van Laningham)
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 14:26:26 -0700
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031318050.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>
Message-ID: <3899F282.ECD6DE0F@callware.com>

Hi All--

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
> 
> > David Ascher wrote:
> 
> > > I'm trying to offload some of my responsibilities which aren't
> > > "mission-critical" to me. Being the 'list-owner' of the tutor list is one of
> > > those.  I want to be able to keep only a very distant eye on the tutor list
> > > traffic, and I don't think I can do that as list-owner.
> > >
> > > I've picked the four of you because your names show up on the 'answer' side
> > > of questions in the last month or two.  Are any of you interested?
> 
> I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
> responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
> though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
> wouldn't be a *bad* idea.
> 

Couldn't we adopt/adapt the standard Python FAQ for this?  It seems like
a lot of work has already been done that could be reused, if not stolen
wholesale.

<stealing-is-better-than-borrowing>-ly y'rs,
Ivan
----------------------------------------------
Ivan Van Laningham
Callware Technologies, Inc.
ivanlan@callware.com
ivanlan@home.com
http://www.pauahtun.org
See also: 
http://www.foretec.com/python/workshops/1998-11/proceedings.html
Army Signal Corps:  Cu Chi, Class of '70
Author:  Teach Yourself Python in 24 Hours
----------------------------------------------


From deirdre@deirdre.net  Thu Feb  3 21:31:37 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <3899F282.ECD6DE0F@callware.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Ivan Van Laningham wrote:

> > I have answered David privately that I'm willing to take on the
> > responsibility. Like Ivan, I don't see any real need to change the format,
> > though perhaps there could be more encouragement. Also, a tutor list FAQ
> > wouldn't be a *bad* idea.
> 
> Couldn't we adopt/adapt the standard Python FAQ for this?  It seems like
> a lot of work has already been done that could be reused, if not stolen
> wholesale.

I meant for the types of questions that are frequently asked on the Tutor
list that may not be general Python questions. Otherwise, they should be
incorporated into the main FAQ and referenced from any Tutor FAQ.

One of the questions that's commonly asked, for example, is if Python can
be used for "hacking" (usually by script-kiddies).

The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
it.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



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To: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Cc: Ivan Van Laningham <ivanlan@callware.com>,
	David Ascher <dascher@mindspring.com>, skip@mojam.com,
	alan.gauld@bt.com, meta-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-Reply-To: <200002032134.QAA00211@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
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On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Guido van Rossum wrote:

> > The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
> > people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
> > it.
> 
> Aren't those answers in the autoresponder message?  I think they are
> for help@python.org.

Ah, quite possibly so.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"Mars has been a tough target" -- Peter G. Neumann, Risks Digest Moderator
"That's because the Martians keep shooting things down." -- Harlan Rosenthal
<Harlan.Rosenthal@Dialogic.com>, retorting in Risks Digest 20.60



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To: Deirdre Saoirse <deirdre@deirdre.net>
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Subject: Re: [meta-sig] Re: Tutor list: looking for someone to take over
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:31:37 PST."
             <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002031328070.7352-100000@adelie.deirdre.org> 
From: Guido van Rossum <guido@python.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:34:37 -0500
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> I meant for the types of questions that are frequently asked on the Tutor
> list that may not be general Python questions. Otherwise, they should be
> incorporated into the main FAQ and referenced from any Tutor FAQ.
> 
> One of the questions that's commonly asked, for example, is if Python can
> be used for "hacking" (usually by script-kiddies).
> 
> The second most frequently asked question (from memory here) concerns
> people who installed Python on Windows and don't understand how to invoke
> it.

Aren't those answers in the autoresponder message?  I think they are
for help@python.org.

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)




From dscherer@cmu.edu  Sun Feb  6 15:24:00 2000
From: dscherer@cmu.edu (David Scherer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 10:24:00 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] Split the edu-SIG?
In-Reply-To: <200002061358.IAA17309@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
Message-ID: <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>

I think there's a deep issue raised by Terry Gabriel's complaint.  There are
two large issues which need to be discussed regarding "Python in education":

1.  Lesson planning, evangelism, course content creation.

2.  Tool improvements, such as IDE enhancements, specialized libraries,
frameworks for problem domains, and, less significantly, future changes to
the language itself.

Clearly these topics are related.  However, there are some obvious problems
with having both of these topics discussed in the same forum:

1.  People who want to start teaching python NOW couldn't care less about
tool development because it will happen too slowly.  They will look on
discussions of (2) as distractions at best.

2.  Similarly, those of us who believe that some tool development is
absolutely a prerequisite to using Python in our environments or for CP4E
find discussion of (1) a little too premature to be helpful.

3.  Discussion of (2) is likely to become excessively technical for some of
the people in this forum.

4.  At least right now, the traffic on the list is much too high for anyone
without procmail and a threaded mail reader.

I am therefore convinced that this forum is inappropriate for discussing
(2).  I therefore put the following question to the SIG:

1.  Is anyone else interested in seriously discussing new or enhanced Python
libraries and tools to make Python more usable in educational settings, or
in a specific curriculum?

2.  If so, is there a better forum to discuss these issues?

3.  If not, should one be created?

If the answer to (1) is no, then let's make that explicit in the SIG
charter, and restrict discussion of tool development to private
communication channels.  Otherwise, let's find another forum.

I'm deeply sorry that anyone felt it necessary to leave the SIG because of
excessive discussion of language issues.  However, I am also aware that
there are several different groups, including Guido at CNRI and our group at
Carnegie Mellon, actively engaged in the development of Python-based
environments for education, and I think there should be *some* forum for us
to communicate with each other and with people interested in applying our
work.

Dave Scherer



From smorris@nexen.com  Sun Feb  6 16:27:05 2000
From: smorris@nexen.com (Steve Morris)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 11:27:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [meta-sig] [Edu-sig] Split the edu-SIG?
In-Reply-To: <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>
References: <200002061358.IAA17309@eric.cnri.reston.va.us>
 <NDBBJMMNCLAJIPDNOJNEEEKHCAAA.dscherer@cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <200002061627.LAA07081@brocade.nexen.com>

Dave,

You are making valid points but I think you are rushing a little. I
expect that the current flood of traffic will settle down a lot in a
week or so as people finish stating their initial interests and
objectives. It may be that when the traffic settles we can handle both
threads. There are not completely exclusive. Tool development needs to
be guided by the practical experience of those on the ground trying to
teach. Those on the ground need to understand the possibilities of
what tool people can deliver in the future.

By the way I am clearly on the tool development side but would hate to
move forward without significant feedback from the intended users. 

I also don't think the dichotomy is as clear as you state it. I
suspect that most people are more in the middle. Where do you put
such things as creation of examples. How about packaging examples with
the interpreter, ide and documentation in an easy to deploy package.

I would define your dichotomy as more of a continuous spectrum with
at least these tentative breakdowns:

1) People wanting to use existing software unchanged and looking for
ways to do that.

2) People looking for simple short term enhancements that improve
their ability to deploy in the short term.

3) Longer term ideas of varying scales.

Plese don't try to define this in polarizing us and them terms.

Steve

David Scherer writes:
 > I think there's a deep issue raised by Terry Gabriel's complaint.  There are
 > two large issues which need to be discussed regarding "Python in education":
 > 
 > 1.  Lesson planning, evangelism, course content creation.
 > 
 > 2.  Tool improvements, such as IDE enhancements, specialized libraries,
 > frameworks for problem domains, and, less significantly, future changes to
 > the language itself.
 > 
 > Clearly these topics are related.  However, there are some obvious problems
 > with having both of these topics discussed in the same forum:
 > 
 > 1.  People who want to start teaching python NOW couldn't care less about
 > tool development because it will happen too slowly.  They will look on
 > discussions of (2) as distractions at best.
 > 
 > 2.  Similarly, those of us who believe that some tool development is
 > absolutely a prerequisite to using Python in our environments or for CP4E
 > find discussion of (1) a little too premature to be helpful.
 > 
 > 3.  Discussion of (2) is likely to become excessively technical for some of
 > the people in this forum.
 > 
 > 4.  At least right now, the traffic on the list is much too high for anyone
 > without procmail and a threaded mail reader.
 > 
 > I am therefore convinced that this forum is inappropriate for discussing
 > (2).  I therefore put the following question to the SIG:
 > 
 > 1.  Is anyone else interested in seriously discussing new or enhanced Python
 > libraries and tools to make Python more usable in educational settings, or
 > in a specific curriculum?
 > 
 > 2.  If so, is there a better forum to discuss these issues?
 > 
 > 3.  If not, should one be created?
 > 
 > If the answer to (1) is no, then let's make that explicit in the SIG
 > charter, and restrict discussion of tool development to private
 > communication channels.  Otherwise, let's find another forum.
 > 
 > I'm deeply sorry that anyone felt it necessary to leave the SIG because of
 > excessive discussion of language issues.  However, I am also aware that
 > there are several different groups, including Guido at CNRI and our group at
 > Carnegie Mellon, actively engaged in the development of Python-based
 > environments for education, and I think there should be *some* forum for us
 > to communicate with each other and with people interested in applying our
 > work.
 > 
 > Dave Scherer
 > 
 > 
 > _______________________________________________
 > Edu-sig mailing list
 > Edu-sig@python.org
 > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig


From kens@sightreader.com  Fri Feb 18 07:02:16 2000
From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 23:02:16 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
Message-ID: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>

We need an IDE sig.

There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
(my project).

Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
primary objectives of the IDE sig.

Subtopics:
- source code editors
- code generation (wizards)
- integrated debuggers
- integrated source code control
- integrated c extension module build tools

Ken Seehof




From gstein@lyra.org  Fri Feb 18 06:36:13 2000
From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 22:36:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002172231480.6698-100000@nebula.lyra.org>

This sounds more like a discussion forum than a "normal" SIG. Normally, we
try to define specific deliverables from a SIG. Otherwise, it just kind of
devolves into a quiet, lingering mailing list. Is there a sufficient
volume such that this needs move from (say) c.l.py to a new SIG? Can you
define some deliverables?

Cheers,
-g

On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ken Seehof wrote:
> We need an IDE sig.
> 
> There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
> many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
> scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
> such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
> (my project).
> 
> Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> primary objectives of the IDE sig.
> 
> Subtopics:
> - source code editors
> - code generation (wizards)
> - integrated debuggers
> - integrated source code control
> - integrated c extension module build tools
> 
> Ken Seehof
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Meta-sig maillist  -  Meta-sig@python.org
> http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig
> 

-- 
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/



From tim_one@email.msn.com  Fri Feb 18 07:21:01 2000
From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 02:21:01 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
Message-ID: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>

[Ken Seehof]
> We need an IDE sig.
> ...
> Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> primary objectives of the IDE sig.

This *may* be an idea whose time has come.  I'm wondering whether enough
developers would participate to justify it.  Mark Hammond & I worked hard to
share code between IDLE and PythonWin within the last half year, and nobody
else expressed any interest at that time.  OTOH, Just van Rossum remembered
that yesterday, so we very recently experienced a 50% boost in the level of
potential interest <wink>.

if-it's-just-us-4-a-sig-is-overkill-ly y'rs  - tim




From kens@sightreader.com  Fri Feb 18 08:16:56 2000
From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:16:56 -0800
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002172231480.6698-100000@nebula.lyra.org>
Message-ID: <38ACFFF8.501FA12B@sightreader.com>

Deliverables:

- Common library to be shared by various IDE projects
      - source code wizards
      - build tools
      - etc.
- Standards for integrating source code control systems
- Forum for ideas feature requests

I'm not sure if there is sufficient volume though.  I have noticed that
relevant discussions pop up in several other places (wxPython, edu-sig,
compiler-sig) that belong in an IDE sig.  I'd like to alleviate the danger
of duplication of effort.

The biggest problem is that IDLE is tcl-tk and some of the other stuff
going on is wxPython (my favorite), and then there's PythonWin.  On
the one hand this means it may be difficult to make a useful library that
serves everyone; on the other hand these various groups need to be
pushed to talk to each other more, and a sig might have that effect.
Who knows, maybe everyone will move over to wxPython like they
should :-)

You may be right though, there might not be enough people doing
IDE work right now to support a sig.  I do think there would be at
least three regular members that I know of.

Greg Stein wrote:

> This sounds more like a discussion forum than a "normal" SIG. Normally, we
> try to define specific deliverables from a SIG. Otherwise, it just kind of
> devolves into a quiet, lingering mailing list. Is there a sufficient
> volume such that this needs move from (say) c.l.py to a new SIG? Can you
> define some deliverables?
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Ken Seehof wrote:
> > We need an IDE sig.
> >
> > There are a number of new IDE development projects in the works.  Also,
> > many IDE features would be quite useful in any embeded scripting
> > scenario, so the scope of this sig would go beyond the obvious projects
> > such as PythonWin, Boa Constructor, wxPython IDE, and Neural Integrator
> > (my project).
> >
> > Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
> > primary objectives of the IDE sig.
> >
> > Subtopics:
> > - source code editors
> > - code generation (wizards)
> > - integrated debuggers
> > - integrated source code control
> > - integrated c extension module build tools
> >
> > Ken Seehof
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Meta-sig maillist  -  Meta-sig@python.org
> > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig
> >
>
> --
> Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/





From mclay@nist.gov  Fri Feb 18 16:58:30 2000
From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:58:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
References: <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>
 <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
Message-ID: <14509.31286.92247.438666@fermi.eeel.nist.gov>

Tim Peters writes:
 > [Ken Seehof]
 > > We need an IDE sig.
 > > ...
 > > Shared code and interoperability between IDE systems would be the
 > > primary objectives of the IDE sig.
 > 
 > This *may* be an idea whose time has come.  I'm wondering whether enough
 > developers would participate to justify it.  Mark Hammond & I worked hard to
 > share code between IDLE and PythonWin within the last half year, and nobody
 > else expressed any interest at that time.  OTOH, Just van Rossum remembered
 > that yesterday, so we very recently experienced a 50% boost in the level of
 > potential interest <wink>.

I assume the various project already have individual lists.  What is
the traffic level on those lists?  Should the developers of the
various IDEs be encouraged to merge their mailing lists with the
general discussion list?  If the traffic isn't too high this might
help with the spreading of ideas.

At the developer's day meeting I suggested a GUI sharing approach that
would use XML to define the GUI layout.  This idea was inspired by the
Mozilla project and libglade.  Mozilla uses XML as a declaration
format for cross-platform layout of the chrome of their browsers.  The
Glade project started out using XML as the persistent storage for
their IDE.  Somebody then got the idea to create an embeddable library
called libglade that would use the XML definition to build the GUI on
the fly.  I think their is also a KDE project with a similar scheme
for defining the GUI.  (The libglade Python interface has become very
popular with Linux application developers.  Redhat is participating in
the development.  They use it in some of their sysadmin tools.)

Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.

Would the IDEs be willing to try sharing the layout definitions using
XML? Can the various IDEs agree on a common set of XML tags for this
task?  Th XMI specification for sharing information between the UML
modeling tools would be a good source of ideas on how this might work.


From orla_redbird@crosswinds.net  Sat Feb 19 02:01:22 2000
From: orla_redbird@crosswinds.net (Gordon Worley)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:01:22 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <14509.31286.92247.438666@fermi.eeel.nist.gov>
References: <001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
 <38ACEE78.6034B86A@sightreader.com>	<001501bf79e0$b5b16400$e62d153f@tim>
Message-ID: <l03130301b4d395ff5b44@[205.164.80.5]>

At 11:58 AM -0500 2/18/2000, Michael McLay wrote:
>I assume the various project already have individual lists.  What is
>the traffic level on those lists?  Should the developers of the
>various IDEs be encouraged to merge their mailing lists with the
>general discussion list?  If the traffic isn't too high this might
>help with the spreading of ideas.

There is modest traffic on the MacPython SIG, because we like having a nice
IDE, too.  I can't, however, think of any recent discusion concerning it,
but I'm sure some other MacPy user on here will jump in a prove me wrong.
;-)

>At the developer's day meeting I suggested a GUI sharing approach that
>would use XML to define the GUI layout.  This idea was inspired by the
>Mozilla project and libglade.  Mozilla uses XML as a declaration
>format for cross-platform layout of the chrome of their browsers.  The
>Glade project started out using XML as the persistent storage for
>their IDE.  Somebody then got the idea to create an embeddable library
>called libglade that would use the XML definition to build the GUI on
>the fly.  I think their is also a KDE project with a similar scheme
>for defining the GUI.  (The libglade Python interface has become very
>popular with Linux application developers.  Redhat is participating in
>the development.  They use it in some of their sysadmin tools.)
>
>Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
>of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
>used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
>for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.
>
>Would the IDEs be willing to try sharing the layout definitions using
>XML? Can the various IDEs agree on a common set of XML tags for this
>task?  Th XMI specification for sharing information between the UML
>modeling tools would be a good source of ideas on how this might work.

Well, I can't speak for Just, because I'm not him.  However, moving the
interfaces to XML (especially for IDLE) would be nice for us Mac users
because Tk is so poorly implimented on the Mac.  Mozilla's interface works
well, so I would imagine that an XML interface for any program would be
nice to Mac users, since we would have a change of getting faithful (and
easy) ports of programs.

Oh, and back to the meta issue at hand, an IDE SIG might be nice, but maybe
it should be aimed at developing a single IDE for use on all platforms and
then tie in the development of other IDEs so that options will still exist.
Most importantly, I think a SIG might help to get something done, rather
than a bunch of us posting to the meta sig and hoping that our desires are
magically met.

- Gordon Worley
http://www.crosswinds.net/~orla_redbird/
mailto:orla_redbird@crosswinds.net




From riaan@e.co.za  Sun Feb 20 20:03:30 2000
From: riaan@e.co.za (Riaan Booysen)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:03:30 +0200
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE Sig
Message-ID: <38B04892.49BA8AD8@e.co.za>

Hello all,

I would like to add my yes vote for an IDE sig.
I'm sure more interest in this will be generated just by starting such a SIG.

If this is not going to happen (yet), where would be the place for
discussing such issues? On edu-sig because of IDLE?

Riaan (Boa Constructor)


From tim_one@email.msn.com  Tue Feb 22 07:47:43 2000
From: tim_one@email.msn.com (Tim Peters)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 02:47:43 -0500
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE Sig
In-Reply-To: <38B04892.49BA8AD8@e.co.za>
Message-ID: <000d01bf7d09$1a488080$e82d153f@tim>

[Riaan Booysen]
> I would like to add my yes vote for an IDE sig.
> I'm sure more interest in this will be generated just by starting
> such a SIG.
>
> If this is not going to happen (yet), where would be the place for
> discussing such issues? On edu-sig because of IDLE?

Definitely not the Edu-SIG -- except in that a high-level discussion
specifically relates to Python IDEs in education.  The majority of postings
on that SIG "should be" from teachers (however loosely defined).

comp.lang.python is the only natural existing home for it.  Such discussions
have taken place there before, but attracted little participation.  Stick
[IDE] in the subject line and see whether that's changed <wink>.

would-personally-give-an-ide-sig-a-shot-ly y'rs  - tim




From deirdre@deirdre.net  Tue Feb 22 20:15:29 2000
From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:15:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [meta-sig] IDE sig
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b4d395ff5b44@[205.164.80.5]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002221212210.29243-100000@adelie.deirdre.org>

On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, Gordon Worley wrote:

> >Moving the GUI definition to XML could potentially solve the problem
> >of the plethora of GUI libraries.  Both Mozilla and libglade can be
> >used for inspiration in building a similar XML based layout capability
> >for Tcl/Tk, PythonWin, and wxPython.
> 
> Well, I can't speak for Just, because I'm not him.  However, moving the
> interfaces to XML (especially for IDLE) would be nice for us Mac users
> because Tk is so poorly implimented on the Mac.

One of my crack-addled projects is to port Gtk (and eventually
Glade/Libglade) for the MacOS. It's starting off slowly alas.

> Oh, and back to the meta issue at hand, an IDE SIG might be nice, but maybe
> it should be aimed at developing a single IDE for use on all platforms and
> then tie in the development of other IDEs so that options will still exist.

As there's a Gtk+ port for Windows and Unix, I think this is probably the
best overall GUI toolkit?

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
"That doesn't make sense in any meaning of 'sense' with which I'm
familiar"
                                     -- Aaron Malone <aaron@semo.net>