From kens@sightreader.com Thu Nov 2 09:25:54 2000 From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:25:54 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] Starting a Sound sig. References: <39C684D9.5274EF17@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005f01c044ae$e7a71920$adf1fea9@his> Count me in on the Sound-SIG. I would be willing to contribute code if I happen to write anything relevant. Most of my current work involves a neural network / visual connectionist modelling product destined for open source. I can contribute to applying neural networks to sound processing if there is a market in that area that can be tapped. Such a project would certainly make use of a general purpose audio processing library and standard formats such as WAV and MP3, and other subject matter that would be covered by a Sound-SIG Ken Seehof kens@sightreader.com http://starship.python.net/crew/seehof/NeuralIntegrator.html www.sightreader.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Berg" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 1:10 PM Subject: [meta-sig] Starting a Sound sig. > Hello everyone. My name is Aaron Berg. I work with speech > recognition/synthesis at Minnesota State University, Mankato. For the > last year I have struggled to find good sound utilities and sound > handling code for python. I myself may not have the knowledge to create > these needed modules. I would like to start a SIG that deals exclusivly > with sound issues in python. I try to read as many posts to the python > newsgroup as possible. I see people from time to time asking how to play > sound in python, easy for some platforms but impossible for others. I > don't really know how much of an interest there is in this subject. My > personal interests are playing and recording sound under a linux > platform. Although I have tried many approaches to doing this I have yet > to find code that is easy to use and reliable. > > So with that I will ask. Do you have an interest in working with or > learning more about Sound and python? If so reply back. I would love to > get a SIG going. > > Thank you for you time, > Aaron C. Berg > > > _______________________________________________ > Meta-sig maillist - Meta-sig@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig > From Moshe Zadka Thu Nov 2 16:09:08 2000 From: Moshe Zadka (Moshe Zadka) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:09:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.1 tasks In-Reply-To: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Thomas Wouters wrote: > Is anyone working on something like this, or even thinking about it ? I'm > not deep enough into distutils to join that SIG, but I definately would join > a CPyAN SIG ;) Cries for this sig have been already made in c.l.py. I'm moving this discussion to meta-sig. Please discuss it there. I'm willing to champion it, but I'll defer if Andrew or Greg want to do it. -- Moshe Zadka -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez From thomas@xs4all.net Thu Nov 2 16:38:47 2000 From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: ; from moshez@math.huji.ac.il on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:09:08PM +0200 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:09:08PM +0200, Moshe Zadka wrote: > I'm moving this discussion to meta-sig. Please discuss it there. Ack! Freeze, don't move, while I subscribe to that list! ;) Do we need a justification for that SIG ? A central-but-distributed repository for Python modules (both C and .py), as well as an easy way to search, download and install them, has been a big (and growing) wish of everyone from newbie to experienced developer. With the 1.0 release of Distutils, we have the easy way to install them, and _a_ way to download them (by hand;), but the central repository, with search capabilities, and with easy access is still missing. There is the Vaults of Parnassus, which is definately cool, but it isn't distributed and it isn't accessible (as far as I know) by anything other than a webbrowser. WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management over HTTP. As Greg so enthousiastically (and effectively) has been preaching, this means it can make use of all existing HTTP infrastructure (proxies, SOCKS servers, SSL(!), firewall allowances, etc) and that the basis of connection/retrieval is already present, in the Python standard library. WebDAV also allows arbitrary properties to be set, on files, and allows searching on those properties. That could be used to index types of modules, functionality, dependancies, conflicts, etcetera. The mod_dav Apache module is currently an add-on module for Apache 1.3.x, but a standard module in 2.0, and there is good WebDAV client support for both Python and C. (And a few WebDAV servers written in Python as well, I believe.) There are applications and extentions for Windows, Macintosh and GNOME that (near-)seamlessly merge a local filesystem and a WebDAV 'filesystem', meaning you could browse through the module list and search the modules without any specific Python tool installed. Lacking those, you could still browse the list, since it's a simple HTTP website as well, and optionally use server-side search scripts. That said, WebDAV is relatively new, and not all webservers support it yet. Not do all potential clients, for that matter. I think that's not a problem for a distributed module archive for Python, since the servers will have to run 'custom' code whichever way we go; either to allow searching, or to index the modules at every update. WebDAV is the way of least resistance, in my eyes. As for client support, Greg Stein wrote the client support for WebDAV, and I doubt it will be orphaned anytime soon. The same goes for Neon, the C library written by Joe Orton, should we ever need to use it. Sorry, never asked for a SIG before, so I don't know what's required ;) I think it should be a separate SIG, though, rather than do it under the distutils SIG, since it's definately a different subject, and they can be cleanly separated. Brainwashed-ly y'rs, -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! From thomas@xs4all.net Thu Nov 2 16:41:44 2000 From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:41:44 +0100 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote: > WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management > over HTTP. Oh, for more information on WebDAV: www.webdav.org. Meant to add that, but overranted it ;P -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! From paul@digicool.com Thu Nov 2 16:50:11 2000 From: paul@digicool.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 11:50:11 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of sigs, called the "Locator SIG". It's charter was to provide a searchable archive for Python resources. It ultimately went the same way most of these initiatives go: nobody actually went out and did anything. However, I think the circumstances have changed a LOT since then: Python is a lot bigger, which both makes the resource location problem much worse and provides more people to perhaps work on it. As an alternative, there are other projects to piggyback on, such as Trove, rather than recreating the wheel. But ultimately somebody's just going to have to sit down and _own_ the work of writing up the requirements. I failed previously in this regard and would hate to see a new effort go down in defeat for the same reasons. Either way, let's PLEASE not get the project started here on meta-sig, which isn't really a forum for plunging into the implementation details, like which protocol to use. Just my $0.02. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ ----------------------------------------- Thomas Wouters wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management > > over HTTP. > > Oh, for more information on WebDAV: www.webdav.org. Meant to add that, but > overranted it ;P > > -- > Thomas Wouters > > Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! > > _______________________________________________ > Meta-sig maillist - Meta-sig@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 17:39:17 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:39:17 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com>; from paul@digicool.com on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> Message-ID: <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Paul Everitt wrote: >Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of >sigs, called the "Locator SIG". Its charter was to provide a >searchable archive for Python resources. I think we should revive the Locator SIG for this purpose. While the problem interacts with Distutils a bit (mostly in the metadata available in setup.py files), much of it will be concerned with requirements and data formats and protocols that are unrelated to the Distutils. I'm willing to own it, and here's a proposed description: The Python Locator SIG aims at producing a master index of Python software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the requirements are, converging on a design, and producing an implementation. --amk From mclay@nist.gov Thu Nov 2 18:04:46 2000 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:04:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Andrew Kuchling writes: > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Paul Everitt wrote: > >Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of > >sigs, called the "Locator SIG". Its charter was to provide a > >searchable archive for Python resources. > > I think we should revive the Locator SIG for this purpose. While the > problem interacts with Distutils a bit (mostly in the metadata > available in setup.py files), much of it will be concerned with > requirements and data formats and protocols that are unrelated to the > Distutils. I'm willing to own it, and here's a proposed description: > > The Python Locator SIG aims at producing a master index of Python > software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the > requirements are, converging on a design, and producing an implementation. I second the motion. Please restart the sig and move the discussion to that list. From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 06:12:15 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 01:12:15 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100." <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200011020612.BAA09090@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Do we need a justification for that SIG ? Yes. We don't need a justification for wanting the feature, but we do need to justify the creation of a SIG. Not saying that I'm against creating a SIG, just explaining the procedure... --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 18:15:14 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:15:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <14849.44850.702691.859667@bitdiddle.concentric.net> +1 from me From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 06:17:03 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 01:17:03 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100." <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> [Thomas pleas for using WEBDAV in CPyAN.] This is really a discussion for the CPyAN SIG, not for the meta-sig! Regardless of the merits of CPyAN, I'm wary of using WEBDAV here -- if the goal is to improve the Python experience for downloading 3rd party modules, we should be using lowest-common-denominator tools. That means we can require nothing more than a web browser and an ftp client. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From gstein@lyra.org Thu Nov 2 18:30:57 2000 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:30:57 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>; from guido@python.org on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:17:03AM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:17:03AM -0500, Guido van Rossum wrote: > [Thomas pleas for using WEBDAV in CPyAN.] > > This is really a discussion for the CPyAN SIG, not for the meta-sig! > > Regardless of the merits of CPyAN, I'm wary of using WEBDAV here -- if > the goal is to improve the Python experience for downloading 3rd party > modules, we should be using lowest-common-denominator tools. That > means we can require nothing more than a web browser and an ftp > client. WebDAV doesn't not interfere with fetching modules. It can be used to publish modules, to annotate them, and to find them. Alternative mechanisms can certainly be available, but DAV will *definitely* not be a barrier to *usage* of the CPyAN. Trust me on that one... it is an aid for maintenance rather than a usage requirement. Let's reframe the question about creating the SIG. Assent and silent assent is easy for creating it. Are there any *opposing* viewpoints for creating a new CPyAN SIG? Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From gward@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 18:36:35 2000 From: gward@mems-exchange.org (Greg Ward) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org>; from gstein@lyra.org on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:30:57AM -0800 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> Message-ID: <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> On 02 November 2000, Greg Stein said: > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the rename: "locator" could mean anything. Greg From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 18:53:20 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:53:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net> I don't like the name CPyAN. I don't like locator as the final name either. I say leave the name as locator for now. The SIG can come up with a good name for the service. Jeremy From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 19:00:44 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:00:44 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net>; from jeremy@alum.mit.edu on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001102140044.B20502@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0500, Jeremy Hylton wrote: >I don't like the name CPyAN. I don't like locator as the final name >either. I say leave the name as locator for now. The SIG can come up >with a good name for the service. My thoughts exactly; locator will do just fine. --amk From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 08:03:18 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:03:18 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 10:30:57 PST." <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> Message-ID: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the SIG. -1 on the name locator-SIG. -1 on the name CPyAN-SIG -- it's a bad, unpronounceable pun. Anyone got a good name for it? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 20:00:56 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> If we have to play the name game to avoid your veto, I'll try: catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) trove-sig (coopting the name Ken came up with last time that was coincidently cooped by ESR) Jeremy From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Nov 2 20:03:59 2000 From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:03:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. > > +1 on the SIG. -1 on the name locator-SIG. -1 on the name > CPyAN-SIG -- it's a bad, unpronounceable pun. > > Anyone got a good name for it? PySPAN. -- _Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net "You had thesaurus flakes for breakfast again, didn't you?" -- Eric Williams From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 20:08:17 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew M. Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:08:17 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net>; from jeremy@alum.mit.edu on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:00:56PM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001102150817.A3690@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:00:56PM -0500, Jeremy Hylton wrote: >catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) +1 on catalog-sig. --amk From Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com Thu Nov 2 20:12:38 2000 From: Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com (Friedrich, Robin K) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:12:38 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <730BE64C7169D211B07100805FEA51B70216060C@usahoum2.unitedspacealliance.com> +1 on catalog-sig as well. -Robin From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Nov 2 20:14:10 2000 From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:14:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the SIG -1 on the names locator and/or catalog. I'm not as unfond of CPyAN, but it's not as pronounceable. I'm rather fond of the idea of it being SPAM-SIG (Super(?) Python Accessory (?) Modules), but spam carries other negative connotations. On the other hand, it is Monty Python related and a word play. -- _Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net "You had thesaurus flakes for breakfast again, didn't you?" -- Eric Williams From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 08:27:58 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:27:58 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:00:56 EST." <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <200011020827.DAA17083@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > If we have to play the name game to avoid your veto, I'll try: > > catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) > trove-sig (coopting the name Ken came up with last time that was > coincidently cooped by ESR) OK, let's go with catalog-sig. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com Thu Nov 2 20:55:52 2000 From: Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com (Friedrich, Robin K) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:55:52 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <730BE64C7169D211B07100805FEA51B70216060E@usahoum2.unitedspacealliance.com> Now that that is settled the marketing guys can take their time working up a kewl acronym. Not surprisingly there are tools for this.... see: http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/paracomp/anym/ -----Original Message----- From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:guido@python.org] OK, let's go with catalog-sig. From peter@engcorp.com Thu Nov 2 20:59:56 2000 From: peter@engcorp.com (Peter Hansen) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:59:56 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <3A01D5CC.F0E44DE9@engcorp.com> Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. > > +1 on the SIG -1 on the names locator and/or catalog. I'm not as unfond of > CPyAN, but it's not as pronounceable. > > I'm rather fond of the idea of it being SPAM-SIG (Super(?) Python > Accessory (?) Modules), but spam carries other negative connotations. On > the other hand, it is Monty Python related and a word play. LOL! +1 on SPAM ("Search, Python, All Modules"? or variations thereof, for those who need an acronym to which to anchor their references). Definitely -1 on CPyAN. Not everyone (thankfully) had to graduate from or even know much about the Perl world to get to Python. I haven't a clue what CPAN stands for, nor do I like the (lack of) aesthetics with CPyAN, nor its unpronouncability or ugly mixed-caps (keep "Py" at the front where it belongs! :-). If it weren't for this thread I wouldn't know it was a catalog of anything. If I had to guess at what CPAN stood for, and I like to guess at acronyms, I'd say it was Catalog Perl Across the Network... don't bother telling me how close I am: I can search google. Regardless, that inspires the following somewhat self-defining suggestion: SPAN As in "Search Python Across the Net", not to mention the obvious meaning of the word itself. Any takers? I'll stick with +1 to SPAM until somebody seconds this idea. (Hmm. maybe that should be "Spread Python Across the Net" ?) -- -------------------------------------------------------- Peter Hansen, P.Eng. From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Thu Nov 2 23:10:00 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:10:00 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <3A01F448.C7F25732@correionet.com.br> Yet another crazy suggestion (just for laughs...if any:o) SPyME - Search Python Modules & Extensions -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 16:27:51 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:27:51 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? Message-ID: Consensus on a Catalog SIG seemed to be generally positive... Is it going to be created? What's missing? --amk From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 16:53:05 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:53:05 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:27:51 EST." References: Message-ID: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Consensus on a Catalog SIG seemed to be generally positive... Is it > going to be created? What's missing? What's the charter? Who's the owner? Once that's settled, Barry will create the mailing lists and I will create the initial SIG directory and home page. (We looked at this as our first Zope exercise, but decided we have more important stuff to work on first. :-) --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 16:57:13 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:57:13 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>; from guido@python.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:53:05AM -0500 References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:53:05AM -0500, Guido van Rossum wrote: >What's the charter? Who's the owner? Once that's settled, Barry will I posted a proposed charter, and said I'm willing to own the SIG: The Python Catalog SIG aims at producing a master index of Python software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the requirements are, converging on a design for the data schema, and producing an implementation. ("Implementation" will almost certainly include mean a set of CGI scripts for browsing the catalog, and may also contain a standard library module for automatically fetching & installing modules, if the SIG decides that's a worthwhile feature.) --amk From barry@wooz.org Wed Nov 8 17:33:49 2000 From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a confirmation message in your inbox momentarily. Guido, I'll leave the rest of the sig creation up to you. -Barry From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 18:02:07 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:02:07 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net>; from barry@wooz.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500 References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made >akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a Thanks! How will I go about writing & maintaining the SIG pages? Should I log in directly to parrot.python.org, trusting that they'll be copied over whenever python.org moves? --amk From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 18:36:47 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:36:47 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:02:07 EST." <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <200011081836.NAA23828@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made > >akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a > > Thanks! How will I go about writing & maintaining the SIG pages? > Should I log in directly to parrot.python.org, trusting that they'll > be copied over whenever python.org moves? For now, please maintain the files directly on parrot, but keep a backup elsewhere. We haven't moved the site yet (and may not do this right away either). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 18:39:25 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:39:25 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 12:33:49 EST." <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <200011081839.NAA23872@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made > akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a > confirmation message in your inbox momentarily. > > Guido, I'll leave the rest of the sig creation up to you. I've added it to the sigs index page. Andrew will create his own sigs/catalog-sig subdirectory. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ilya@glas.net Mon Nov 13 18:44:27 2000 From: ilya@glas.net (Ilya Etingof) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:44:27 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management Message-ID: Proposal: Network Management SIG Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language options of Network Managers to Perl or Java. So, the initial objectives of this SIG would be to develop SMI v1 & v2 MIB parser/compiler to bundle with Python applications dedicated to network management and to develop a Python module that supports SNMP v2. Initial Duration: Six months Coordinator: I could try to administer it if nobody else wants to. Tasks: 1. Discuss and consider the best way of implementing MIB compiler in Python. Foreseen solutions include a SWIG over libsmi or a written from the scratch, pure-Python MIB compiler. 2. Discuss and consider the best way of implementing SNMP v2 (and possibly higher versions of SNMP) engine to use with Python applications. Options include a) extending PySNMP functionality up to higher versions of SNMP b) a SWIG over UCD SNMP. 3. Discuss and define the API's and general design of MIB compiler and SNMP v2 engine. 4. Implement MIB compiler and SNMPv2 engine. 5. Produce some end user documentation on API's of these two products. Thanks, ilya From guido@python.org Mon Nov 13 19:06:55 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:06:55 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:44:27 +0300." References: Message-ID: <200011131906.OAA24602@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Ilya, I agree that this is an important topic. As BDFL (Benevolent Dictator and Fearless Leader -- how pompous can a title get :-), I have a few questions that I cannot answer myself (since I'm not a Network Manager): - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a SIG? - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed successfully? These are important questions to answer before this proposal can go through (see the SIG creation guidelines: http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Mon Nov 13 19:46:46 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:46:46 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management Message-ID: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> Ilya Etingof wrote: >Proposal: Network Management SIG >Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities >in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language >options of Network Managers to Guido van Rossum (The BDFL) wrote: >- Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > SIG? I vote (don't know if this means anything these days ;o) YEP, feeling bold enough to mention the sad times that I had to go back using Tcl just because it had scotty and Python did not :o( regards Rod -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From ilya@glas.net Mon Nov 13 19:56:48 2000 From: ilya@glas.net (Ilya Etingof) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:56:48 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: <200011131906.OAA24602@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: Guido, Thanks for your reply. > - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > SIG? Well, I can't really judge on this as I have no idea on how to evaluate the interest and match it against SIG creation criterias... ;-) To my own experience, there are quite a lot of Perl, Tcl and Java based network management products and tools. Besides other factors, it's probably also because of well established support for basic network management tasks (primarily SNMP engine and MIB parser presense) in these programming environments. AFAIK, Python does not currently have comparably well developed facilities so my intention is to create them as I need them. > - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed > successfully? I have not found any relevant SIG in the index http://www.python.org/sigs/ . I'm not yet aware of other places dedicated for specific tech talks besides SIGs. -ilya From guido@python.org Mon Nov 13 20:07:25 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:07:25 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:46:46 -0200." <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> Message-ID: <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Ilya Etingof wrote: > > >Proposal: Network Management SIG > >Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities > >in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language > >options of Network Managers to > > Guido van Rossum (The BDFL) wrote: > >- Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > > SIG? Rodrigo Senra: > I vote (don't know if this means anything these days ;o) YEP, > feeling bold enough to mention the sad times that I had to go back > using Tcl just because it had scotty and Python did not :o( > regards Ilya Etingof: > > - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > > SIG? > > Well, I can't really judge on this as I have no idea on how to evaluate > the interest and match it against SIG creation criterias... ;-) > > To my own experience, there are quite a lot of Perl, Tcl and Java based > network management products and tools. Besides other factors, it's > probably also because of well established support for basic network > management tasks (primarily SNMP engine and MIB parser presense) in these > programming environments. > > AFAIK, Python does not currently have comparably well developed facilities > so my intention is to create them as I need them. > > > - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed > > successfully? > > I have not found any relevant SIG in the index http://www.python.org/sigs/ . > I'm not yet aware of other places dedicated for specific tech talks besides > SIGs. I understand that there is a need for a tool. But the real question is, are there enough people who want to *work* on *creating* the tool to warrant the need for a SIG? The main cause for SIG failure is not lack of posters so much as lack of contributions towards the goal of the SIG. Take for example Rodrigo's reply (just because he's the first person to reply :-). He votes "yes" (I have counted and recounted his vote three times manually and it's still a single "yes" vote :-) but he doesn't commit to do any of the work. Without real contributions there's no SIG. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Mon Nov 13 22:15:42 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:15:42 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I understand that there is a need for a tool. But the real question > is, are there enough people who want to *work* on *creating* the tool > to warrant the need for a SIG? The main cause for SIG failure is not > lack of posters so much as lack of contributions towards the goal of > the SIG. Take for example Rodrigo's reply (just because he's the > first person to reply :-). He votes "yes" (I have counted and > recounted his vote three times manually and it's still a single "yes" > vote :-) but he doesn't commit to do any of the work. Amazing, could you smell my reticence ? :o) I voted yes, because I'd like to see people working on it. Certainly interested in using it, not-so-interested in working on it now (sorry, got a master thesis to finish). You got me Guido, touché. > Without real contributions there's no SIG. I propose to Ilya to start the development at some place (if not already!) and ask for contributors at the forums. After a while the answer to the questions raised here will be answered naturally. -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Tue Nov 14 02:25:21 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:25:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> Message-ID: <14864.41617.789439.492473@bitdiddle.concentric.net> It sounds like SourceForge is the best place to house this project. Jeremy From jas@corpus-callosum.com Tue Nov 14 07:42:10 2000 From: jas@corpus-callosum.com (Jeff Sickel) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:42:10 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: objc-sig, a new breath of life Message-ID: <200011140742.eAE7gLn00925@corpus-callosum.com> With the upcoming release of Apple's Mac OS X and its Darwin = counterpart, there has been a renewed interest in the old Objective-C = module for Python. In addition to the original core of people = interested the ObjC module, there have been quite a few more people = participating in discussions and updates to the older 1.5.2 module that = has been in use for quite some time (though mostly in the private, dark = corners of the scripting world). I propose restarting the objc-sig in order to provide a clean archive of = the history and efforts of those using Python and the Objective-C = runtime. And to help facilitate a new project on Source Forge for the = updates of the current PyObjC module to Python 2.0, including a possible = re-write of the module to better encapsulate and leverage the = Objective-C runtime on Mac OS X, GNUStep, and the POC. Jeff Sickel From kens@sightreader.com Thu Nov 2 09:25:54 2000 From: kens@sightreader.com (Ken Seehof) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 01:25:54 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] Starting a Sound sig. References: <39C684D9.5274EF17@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005f01c044ae$e7a71920$adf1fea9@his> Count me in on the Sound-SIG. I would be willing to contribute code if I happen to write anything relevant. Most of my current work involves a neural network / visual connectionist modelling product destined for open source. I can contribute to applying neural networks to sound processing if there is a market in that area that can be tapped. Such a project would certainly make use of a general purpose audio processing library and standard formats such as WAV and MP3, and other subject matter that would be covered by a Sound-SIG Ken Seehof kens@sightreader.com http://starship.python.net/crew/seehof/NeuralIntegrator.html www.sightreader.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Berg" To: Sent: Monday, September 18, 2000 1:10 PM Subject: [meta-sig] Starting a Sound sig. > Hello everyone. My name is Aaron Berg. I work with speech > recognition/synthesis at Minnesota State University, Mankato. For the > last year I have struggled to find good sound utilities and sound > handling code for python. I myself may not have the knowledge to create > these needed modules. I would like to start a SIG that deals exclusivly > with sound issues in python. I try to read as many posts to the python > newsgroup as possible. I see people from time to time asking how to play > sound in python, easy for some platforms but impossible for others. I > don't really know how much of an interest there is in this subject. My > personal interests are playing and recording sound under a linux > platform. Although I have tried many approaches to doing this I have yet > to find code that is easy to use and reliable. > > So with that I will ask. Do you have an interest in working with or > learning more about Sound and python? If so reply back. I would love to > get a SIG going. > > Thank you for you time, > Aaron C. Berg > > > _______________________________________________ > Meta-sig maillist - Meta-sig@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig > From Moshe Zadka Thu Nov 2 16:09:08 2000 From: Moshe Zadka (Moshe Zadka) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:09:08 +0200 (IST) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] Python 2.1 tasks In-Reply-To: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Thomas Wouters wrote: > Is anyone working on something like this, or even thinking about it ? I'm > not deep enough into distutils to join that SIG, but I definately would join > a CPyAN SIG ;) Cries for this sig have been already made in c.l.py. I'm moving this discussion to meta-sig. Please discuss it there. I'm willing to champion it, but I'll defer if Andrew or Greg want to do it. -- Moshe Zadka -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez From thomas@xs4all.net Thu Nov 2 16:38:47 2000 From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: ; from moshez@math.huji.ac.il on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:09:08PM +0200 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 06:09:08PM +0200, Moshe Zadka wrote: > I'm moving this discussion to meta-sig. Please discuss it there. Ack! Freeze, don't move, while I subscribe to that list! ;) Do we need a justification for that SIG ? A central-but-distributed repository for Python modules (both C and .py), as well as an easy way to search, download and install them, has been a big (and growing) wish of everyone from newbie to experienced developer. With the 1.0 release of Distutils, we have the easy way to install them, and _a_ way to download them (by hand;), but the central repository, with search capabilities, and with easy access is still missing. There is the Vaults of Parnassus, which is definately cool, but it isn't distributed and it isn't accessible (as far as I know) by anything other than a webbrowser. WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management over HTTP. As Greg so enthousiastically (and effectively) has been preaching, this means it can make use of all existing HTTP infrastructure (proxies, SOCKS servers, SSL(!), firewall allowances, etc) and that the basis of connection/retrieval is already present, in the Python standard library. WebDAV also allows arbitrary properties to be set, on files, and allows searching on those properties. That could be used to index types of modules, functionality, dependancies, conflicts, etcetera. The mod_dav Apache module is currently an add-on module for Apache 1.3.x, but a standard module in 2.0, and there is good WebDAV client support for both Python and C. (And a few WebDAV servers written in Python as well, I believe.) There are applications and extentions for Windows, Macintosh and GNOME that (near-)seamlessly merge a local filesystem and a WebDAV 'filesystem', meaning you could browse through the module list and search the modules without any specific Python tool installed. Lacking those, you could still browse the list, since it's a simple HTTP website as well, and optionally use server-side search scripts. That said, WebDAV is relatively new, and not all webservers support it yet. Not do all potential clients, for that matter. I think that's not a problem for a distributed module archive for Python, since the servers will have to run 'custom' code whichever way we go; either to allow searching, or to index the modules at every update. WebDAV is the way of least resistance, in my eyes. As for client support, Greg Stein wrote the client support for WebDAV, and I doubt it will be orphaned anytime soon. The same goes for Neon, the C library written by Joe Orton, should we ever need to use it. Sorry, never asked for a SIG before, so I don't know what's required ;) I think it should be a separate SIG, though, rather than do it under the distutils SIG, since it's definately a different subject, and they can be cleanly separated. Brainwashed-ly y'rs, -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! From thomas@xs4all.net Thu Nov 2 16:41:44 2000 From: thomas@xs4all.net (Thomas Wouters) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 17:41:44 +0100 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl>; from thomas@xs4all.net on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote: > WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management > over HTTP. Oh, for more information on WebDAV: www.webdav.org. Meant to add that, but overranted it ;P -- Thomas Wouters Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! From paul@digicool.com Thu Nov 2 16:50:11 2000 From: paul@digicool.com (Paul Everitt) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 11:50:11 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of sigs, called the "Locator SIG". It's charter was to provide a searchable archive for Python resources. It ultimately went the same way most of these initiatives go: nobody actually went out and did anything. However, I think the circumstances have changed a LOT since then: Python is a lot bigger, which both makes the resource location problem much worse and provides more people to perhaps work on it. As an alternative, there are other projects to piggyback on, such as Trove, rather than recreating the wheel. But ultimately somebody's just going to have to sit down and _own_ the work of writing up the requirements. I failed previously in this regard and would hate to see a new effort go down in defeat for the same reasons. Either way, let's PLEASE not get the project started here on meta-sig, which isn't really a forum for plunging into the implementation details, like which protocol to use. Just my $0.02. --Paul Paul Everitt Digital Creations paul@digicool.com 540.371.6909 ----------------------------------------- The Open Source Zope application server http://www.zope.org/ ----------------------------------------- Thomas Wouters wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 05:38:47PM +0100, Thomas Wouters wrote: > > > WebDAV is a standardized way to do both uploading, and property-management > > over HTTP. > > Oh, for more information on WebDAV: www.webdav.org. Meant to add that, but > overranted it ;P > > -- > Thomas Wouters > > Hi! I'm a .signature virus! copy me into your .signature file to help me spread! > > _______________________________________________ > Meta-sig maillist - Meta-sig@python.org > http://www.python.org/mailman/listinfo/meta-sig From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 17:39:17 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:39:17 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com>; from paul@digicool.com on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> Message-ID: <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Paul Everitt wrote: >Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of >sigs, called the "Locator SIG". Its charter was to provide a >searchable archive for Python resources. I think we should revive the Locator SIG for this purpose. While the problem interacts with Distutils a bit (mostly in the metadata available in setup.py files), much of it will be concerned with requirements and data formats and protocols that are unrelated to the Distutils. I'm willing to own it, and here's a proposed description: The Python Locator SIG aims at producing a master index of Python software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the requirements are, converging on a design, and producing an implementation. --amk From mclay@nist.gov Thu Nov 2 18:04:46 2000 From: mclay@nist.gov (Michael McLay) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:04:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Andrew Kuchling writes: > On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 11:50:11AM -0500, Paul Everitt wrote: > >Back in the 1995 or 1996 time frame I created one of the first couple of > >sigs, called the "Locator SIG". Its charter was to provide a > >searchable archive for Python resources. > > I think we should revive the Locator SIG for this purpose. While the > problem interacts with Distutils a bit (mostly in the metadata > available in setup.py files), much of it will be concerned with > requirements and data formats and protocols that are unrelated to the > Distutils. I'm willing to own it, and here's a proposed description: > > The Python Locator SIG aims at producing a master index of Python > software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the > requirements are, converging on a design, and producing an implementation. I second the motion. Please restart the sig and move the discussion to that list. From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 06:12:15 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 01:12:15 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [Python-Dev] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100." <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200011020612.BAA09090@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Do we need a justification for that SIG ? Yes. We don't need a justification for wanting the feature, but we do need to justify the creation of a SIG. Not saying that I'm against creating a SIG, just explaining the procedure... --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 18:15:14 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:15:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <20001102174144.J12776@xs4all.nl> <3A019B43.6A74E3E5@digicool.com> <20001102123917.D5027@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14849.44222.140150.100786@fermi.eeel.nist.gov> Message-ID: <14849.44850.702691.859667@bitdiddle.concentric.net> +1 from me From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 06:17:03 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 01:17:03 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 17:38:47 +0100." <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> [Thomas pleas for using WEBDAV in CPyAN.] This is really a discussion for the CPyAN SIG, not for the meta-sig! Regardless of the merits of CPyAN, I'm wary of using WEBDAV here -- if the goal is to improve the Python experience for downloading 3rd party modules, we should be using lowest-common-denominator tools. That means we can require nothing more than a web browser and an ftp client. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From gstein@lyra.org Thu Nov 2 18:30:57 2000 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:30:57 -0800 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>; from guido@python.org on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:17:03AM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:17:03AM -0500, Guido van Rossum wrote: > [Thomas pleas for using WEBDAV in CPyAN.] > > This is really a discussion for the CPyAN SIG, not for the meta-sig! > > Regardless of the merits of CPyAN, I'm wary of using WEBDAV here -- if > the goal is to improve the Python experience for downloading 3rd party > modules, we should be using lowest-common-denominator tools. That > means we can require nothing more than a web browser and an ftp > client. WebDAV doesn't not interfere with fetching modules. It can be used to publish modules, to annotate them, and to find them. Alternative mechanisms can certainly be available, but DAV will *definitely* not be a barrier to *usage* of the CPyAN. Trust me on that one... it is an aid for maintenance rather than a usage requirement. Let's reframe the question about creating the SIG. Assent and silent assent is easy for creating it. Are there any *opposing* viewpoints for creating a new CPyAN SIG? Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From gward@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 18:36:35 2000 From: gward@mems-exchange.org (Greg Ward) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org>; from gstein@lyra.org on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 10:30:57AM -0800 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> Message-ID: <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> On 02 November 2000, Greg Stein said: > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the rename: "locator" could mean anything. Greg From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 18:53:20 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:53:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net> I don't like the name CPyAN. I don't like locator as the final name either. I say leave the name as locator for now. The SIG can come up with a good name for the service. Jeremy From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 19:00:44 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:00:44 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net>; from jeremy@alum.mit.edu on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <20001102133634.J32746@ludwig.cnri.reston.va.us> <14849.47136.576553.163714@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001102140044.B20502@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 01:53:20PM -0500, Jeremy Hylton wrote: >I don't like the name CPyAN. I don't like locator as the final name >either. I say leave the name as locator for now. The SIG can come up >with a good name for the service. My thoughts exactly; locator will do just fine. --amk From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 08:03:18 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:03:18 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 10:30:57 PST." <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> Message-ID: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the SIG. -1 on the name locator-SIG. -1 on the name CPyAN-SIG -- it's a bad, unpronounceable pun. Anyone got a good name for it? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Thu Nov 2 20:00:56 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:00:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> If we have to play the name game to avoid your veto, I'll try: catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) trove-sig (coopting the name Ken came up with last time that was coincidently cooped by ESR) Jeremy From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Nov 2 20:03:59 2000 From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:03:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. > > +1 on the SIG. -1 on the name locator-SIG. -1 on the name > CPyAN-SIG -- it's a bad, unpronounceable pun. > > Anyone got a good name for it? PySPAN. -- _Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net "You had thesaurus flakes for breakfast again, didn't you?" -- Eric Williams From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Thu Nov 2 20:08:17 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew M. Kuchling) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:08:17 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net>; from jeremy@alum.mit.edu on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:00:56PM -0500 References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001102150817.A3690@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 03:00:56PM -0500, Jeremy Hylton wrote: >catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) +1 on catalog-sig. --amk From Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com Thu Nov 2 20:12:38 2000 From: Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com (Friedrich, Robin K) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:12:38 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <730BE64C7169D211B07100805FEA51B70216060C@usahoum2.unitedspacealliance.com> +1 on catalog-sig as well. -Robin From deirdre@deirdre.net Thu Nov 2 20:14:10 2000 From: deirdre@deirdre.net (Deirdre Saoirse) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:14:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. +1 on the SIG -1 on the names locator and/or catalog. I'm not as unfond of CPyAN, but it's not as pronounceable. I'm rather fond of the idea of it being SPAM-SIG (Super(?) Python Accessory (?) Modules), but spam carries other negative connotations. On the other hand, it is Monty Python related and a word play. -- _Deirdre * http://www.sfknit.org * http://www.deirdre.net "You had thesaurus flakes for breakfast again, didn't you?" -- Eric Williams From guido@python.org Thu Nov 2 08:27:58 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 03:27:58 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:00:56 EST." <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> References: <20001102164239.R12812@xs4all.nl> <20001102173847.I12776@xs4all.nl> <200011020617.BAA09116@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001102103057.C2037@lyra.org> <200011020803.DAA12641@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <14849.51192.71317.33619@bitdiddle.concentric.net> Message-ID: <200011020827.DAA17083@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > If we have to play the name game to avoid your veto, I'll try: > > catalog-sig / psc-sig / psoc-sig (Python Software Catalog) > trove-sig (coopting the name Ken came up with last time that was > coincidently cooped by ESR) OK, let's go with catalog-sig. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com Thu Nov 2 20:55:52 2000 From: Robin.K.Friedrich@USAHQ.UnitedSpaceAlliance.com (Friedrich, Robin K) Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 14:55:52 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <730BE64C7169D211B07100805FEA51B70216060E@usahoum2.unitedspacealliance.com> Now that that is settled the marketing guys can take their time working up a kewl acronym. Not surprisingly there are tools for this.... see: http://www.cs.uoregon.edu/research/paracomp/anym/ -----Original Message----- From: Guido van Rossum [mailto:guido@python.org] OK, let's go with catalog-sig. From peter@engcorp.com Thu Nov 2 20:59:56 2000 From: peter@engcorp.com (Peter Hansen) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 15:59:56 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <3A01D5CC.F0E44DE9@engcorp.com> Deirdre Saoirse wrote: > > +1 on recreating the Locator SIG. However, I'd call it the CPyAN SIG because > > people will immediately understand what it is about. And let's not get > > caught up in "needing it to be more generic." We're talking about a CPyAN > > here, and that is a huge problem all by itself. > > +1 on the SIG -1 on the names locator and/or catalog. I'm not as unfond of > CPyAN, but it's not as pronounceable. > > I'm rather fond of the idea of it being SPAM-SIG (Super(?) Python > Accessory (?) Modules), but spam carries other negative connotations. On > the other hand, it is Monty Python related and a word play. LOL! +1 on SPAM ("Search, Python, All Modules"? or variations thereof, for those who need an acronym to which to anchor their references). Definitely -1 on CPyAN. Not everyone (thankfully) had to graduate from or even know much about the Perl world to get to Python. I haven't a clue what CPAN stands for, nor do I like the (lack of) aesthetics with CPyAN, nor its unpronouncability or ugly mixed-caps (keep "Py" at the front where it belongs! :-). If it weren't for this thread I wouldn't know it was a catalog of anything. If I had to guess at what CPAN stood for, and I like to guess at acronyms, I'd say it was Catalog Perl Across the Network... don't bother telling me how close I am: I can search google. Regardless, that inspires the following somewhat self-defining suggestion: SPAN As in "Search Python Across the Net", not to mention the obvious meaning of the word itself. Any takers? I'll stick with +1 to SPAM until somebody seconds this idea. (Hmm. maybe that should be "Spread Python Across the Net" ?) -- -------------------------------------------------------- Peter Hansen, P.Eng. From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Thu Nov 2 23:10:00 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2000 21:10:00 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] CPAN-for-Python Message-ID: <3A01F448.C7F25732@correionet.com.br> Yet another crazy suggestion (just for laughs...if any:o) SPyME - Search Python Modules & Extensions -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 16:27:51 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:27:51 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? Message-ID: Consensus on a Catalog SIG seemed to be generally positive... Is it going to be created? What's missing? --amk From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 16:53:05 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:53:05 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 11:27:51 EST." References: Message-ID: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Consensus on a Catalog SIG seemed to be generally positive... Is it > going to be created? What's missing? What's the charter? Who's the owner? Once that's settled, Barry will create the mailing lists and I will create the initial SIG directory and home page. (We looked at this as our first Zope exercise, but decided we have more important stuff to work on first. :-) --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 16:57:13 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:57:13 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>; from guido@python.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:53:05AM -0500 References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 11:53:05AM -0500, Guido van Rossum wrote: >What's the charter? Who's the owner? Once that's settled, Barry will I posted a proposed charter, and said I'm willing to own the SIG: The Python Catalog SIG aims at producing a master index of Python software and other resources. It will begin by figuring out what the requirements are, converging on a design for the data schema, and producing an implementation. ("Implementation" will almost certainly include mean a set of CGI scripts for browsing the catalog, and may also contain a standard library module for automatically fetching & installing modules, if the SIG decides that's a worthwhile feature.) --amk From barry@wooz.org Wed Nov 8 17:33:49 2000 From: barry@wooz.org (Barry A. Warsaw) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a confirmation message in your inbox momentarily. Guido, I'll leave the rest of the sig creation up to you. -Barry From akuchlin@mems-exchange.org Wed Nov 8 18:02:07 2000 From: akuchlin@mems-exchange.org (Andrew Kuchling) Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:02:07 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net>; from barry@wooz.org on Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500 References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: >Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made >akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a Thanks! How will I go about writing & maintaining the SIG pages? Should I log in directly to parrot.python.org, trusting that they'll be copied over whenever python.org moves? --amk From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 18:36:47 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:36:47 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:02:07 EST." <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> <20001108130207.D14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> Message-ID: <200011081836.NAA23828@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > On Wed, Nov 08, 2000 at 12:33:49PM -0500, Barry A. Warsaw wrote: > >Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made > >akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a > > Thanks! How will I go about writing & maintaining the SIG pages? > Should I log in directly to parrot.python.org, trusting that they'll > be copied over whenever python.org moves? For now, please maintain the files directly on parrot, but keep a backup elsewhere. We haven't moved the site yet (and may not do this right away either). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From guido@python.org Wed Nov 8 18:39:25 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2000 13:39:25 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Catalog SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Nov 2000 12:33:49 EST." <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> References: <200011081653.LAA23133@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <20001108115713.C14410@kronos.cnri.reston.va.us> <14857.36477.307077.732736@anthem.concentric.net> Message-ID: <200011081839.NAA23872@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Okay, I've created the catalog-sig mailing list and made > akuchlin@mems-exchange.org the list admin. Andrew, you should see a > confirmation message in your inbox momentarily. > > Guido, I'll leave the rest of the sig creation up to you. I've added it to the sigs index page. Andrew will create his own sigs/catalog-sig subdirectory. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From ilya@glas.net Mon Nov 13 18:44:27 2000 From: ilya@glas.net (Ilya Etingof) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:44:27 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management Message-ID: Proposal: Network Management SIG Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language options of Network Managers to Perl or Java. So, the initial objectives of this SIG would be to develop SMI v1 & v2 MIB parser/compiler to bundle with Python applications dedicated to network management and to develop a Python module that supports SNMP v2. Initial Duration: Six months Coordinator: I could try to administer it if nobody else wants to. Tasks: 1. Discuss and consider the best way of implementing MIB compiler in Python. Foreseen solutions include a SWIG over libsmi or a written from the scratch, pure-Python MIB compiler. 2. Discuss and consider the best way of implementing SNMP v2 (and possibly higher versions of SNMP) engine to use with Python applications. Options include a) extending PySNMP functionality up to higher versions of SNMP b) a SWIG over UCD SNMP. 3. Discuss and define the API's and general design of MIB compiler and SNMP v2 engine. 4. Implement MIB compiler and SNMPv2 engine. 5. Produce some end user documentation on API's of these two products. Thanks, ilya From guido@python.org Mon Nov 13 19:06:55 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:06:55 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:44:27 +0300." References: Message-ID: <200011131906.OAA24602@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Ilya, I agree that this is an important topic. As BDFL (Benevolent Dictator and Fearless Leader -- how pompous can a title get :-), I have a few questions that I cannot answer myself (since I'm not a Network Manager): - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a SIG? - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed successfully? These are important questions to answer before this proposal can go through (see the SIG creation guidelines: http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html). --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Mon Nov 13 19:46:46 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:46:46 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management Message-ID: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> Ilya Etingof wrote: >Proposal: Network Management SIG >Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities >in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language >options of Network Managers to Guido van Rossum (The BDFL) wrote: >- Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > SIG? I vote (don't know if this means anything these days ;o) YEP, feeling bold enough to mention the sad times that I had to go back using Tcl just because it had scotty and Python did not :o( regards Rod -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From ilya@glas.net Mon Nov 13 19:56:48 2000 From: ilya@glas.net (Ilya Etingof) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:56:48 +0300 (MSK) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: <200011131906.OAA24602@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: Guido, Thanks for your reply. > - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > SIG? Well, I can't really judge on this as I have no idea on how to evaluate the interest and match it against SIG creation criterias... ;-) To my own experience, there are quite a lot of Perl, Tcl and Java based network management products and tools. Besides other factors, it's probably also because of well established support for basic network management tasks (primarily SNMP engine and MIB parser presense) in these programming environments. AFAIK, Python does not currently have comparably well developed facilities so my intention is to create them as I need them. > - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed > successfully? I have not found any relevant SIG in the index http://www.python.org/sigs/ . I'm not yet aware of other places dedicated for specific tech talks besides SIGs. -ilya From guido@python.org Mon Nov 13 20:07:25 2000 From: guido@python.org (Guido van Rossum) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:07:25 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:46:46 -0200." <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> Message-ID: <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Ilya Etingof wrote: > > >Proposal: Network Management SIG > >Objectives: It looks like there's a lack of network management facilities > >in Python at the time being what narrows down the scripting language > >options of Network Managers to > > Guido van Rossum (The BDFL) wrote: > >- Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > > SIG? Rodrigo Senra: > I vote (don't know if this means anything these days ;o) YEP, > feeling bold enough to mention the sad times that I had to go back > using Tcl just because it had scotty and Python did not :o( > regards Ilya Etingof: > > - Is there enough interest in this topic to warrant the creation of a > > SIG? > > Well, I can't really judge on this as I have no idea on how to evaluate > the interest and match it against SIG creation criterias... ;-) > > To my own experience, there are quite a lot of Perl, Tcl and Java based > network management products and tools. Besides other factors, it's > probably also because of well established support for basic network > management tasks (primarily SNMP engine and MIB parser presense) in these > programming environments. > > AFAIK, Python does not currently have comparably well developed facilities > so my intention is to create them as I need them. > > > - Are there no other places where this topic can be discussed > > successfully? > > I have not found any relevant SIG in the index http://www.python.org/sigs/ . > I'm not yet aware of other places dedicated for specific tech talks besides > SIGs. I understand that there is a need for a tool. But the real question is, are there enough people who want to *work* on *creating* the tool to warrant the need for a SIG? The main cause for SIG failure is not lack of posters so much as lack of contributions towards the goal of the SIG. Take for example Rodrigo's reply (just because he's the first person to reply :-). He votes "yes" (I have counted and recounted his vote three times manually and it's still a single "yes" vote :-) but he doesn't commit to do any of the work. Without real contributions there's no SIG. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rodsenra@correionet.com.br Mon Nov 13 22:15:42 2000 From: rodsenra@correionet.com.br (Rodrigo Senra) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:15:42 -0200 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I understand that there is a need for a tool. But the real question > is, are there enough people who want to *work* on *creating* the tool > to warrant the need for a SIG? The main cause for SIG failure is not > lack of posters so much as lack of contributions towards the goal of > the SIG. Take for example Rodrigo's reply (just because he's the > first person to reply :-). He votes "yes" (I have counted and > recounted his vote three times manually and it's still a single "yes" > vote :-) but he doesn't commit to do any of the work. Amazing, could you smell my reticence ? :o) I voted yes, because I'd like to see people working on it. Certainly interested in using it, not-so-interested in working on it now (sorry, got a master thesis to finish). You got me Guido, touché. > Without real contributions there's no SIG. I propose to Ilya to start the development at some place (if not already!) and ask for contributors at the forums. After a while the answer to the questions raised here will be answered naturally. -- Rodrigo Senra Computer Engineer (GPr Sistemas Ltda) rodsenra@correionet.com.br MSc Student of Reflection (IC- UNICAMP) Rodrigo.Senra@ic.unicamp.br http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~921234 (see also http://www.gpr.com.br) From jeremy@alum.mit.edu Tue Nov 14 02:25:21 2000 From: jeremy@alum.mit.edu (Jeremy Hylton) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:25:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: Network Management In-Reply-To: <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> References: <3A104526.B6B7AFE0@correionet.com.br> <200011132007.PAA24955@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <3A10680E.BD963016@correionet.com.br> Message-ID: <14864.41617.789439.492473@bitdiddle.concentric.net> It sounds like SourceForge is the best place to house this project. Jeremy From jas@corpus-callosum.com Tue Nov 14 07:42:10 2000 From: jas@corpus-callosum.com (Jeff Sickel) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 01:42:10 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] SIG Proposal: objc-sig, a new breath of life Message-ID: <200011140742.eAE7gLn00925@corpus-callosum.com> With the upcoming release of Apple's Mac OS X and its Darwin = counterpart, there has been a renewed interest in the old Objective-C = module for Python. In addition to the original core of people = interested the ObjC module, there have been quite a few more people = participating in discussions and updates to the older 1.5.2 module that = has been in use for quite some time (though mostly in the private, dark = corners of the scripting world). I propose restarting the objc-sig in order to provide a clean archive of = the history and efforts of those using Python and the Objective-C = runtime. And to help facilitate a new project on Source Forge for the = updates of the current PyObjC module to Python 2.0, including a possible = re-write of the module to better encapsulate and leverage the = Objective-C runtime on Mac OS X, GNUStep, and the POC. Jeff Sickel