From guido@digicool.com Wed May 2 17:18:52 2001 From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:18:52 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Retired SIGS, SIG ownership In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2001 09:25:56 +0200." <20010430092556.A31571@xs4all.nl> References: <20010427133115.R1374@lyra.org> <20010430092556.A31571@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <200105021618.LAA00910@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> I've retired the 4 sigs targeted for retirement -- nobody argued. (They are c++, compiler, plot, and thread). I hear the complaints about the maintenance state of the website. We've had an internal discussion about this at PythonLabs, and we're going ahead with a Zope-based site. It will take a while, but I expect that eventually it will be much easier to create SIG-like places, with mailing lists, a SIG home page, SIG Wikis, SIG distributions, and so on. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rsalz@zolera.com Wed May 2 18:16:51 2001 From: rsalz@zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:16:51 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Proposing a web services SIG Message-ID: <3AF04103.A7FA3F01@zolera.com> I'd like to propose a new SIG, Web Services. Web services uses XML and related standards (schema, wsdl, soap, uddi) to provide a distributed computing infrastructure. There is a great deal of Python activity starting up here -- several SOAP implementation, interop work, WSDL parsing, etc. Much of the information exchange has been late-night point-to-point email, and it's time to provide a visible focal point for this activity. Our feeling (a few of us have chatted about this) is that the web services community generally takes Sax, DOM, etc., "for granted" and that it makes more sense to create a new SIG rather than be part of XML-SIG. XML Schema is a likely area of overlap, and we'll work together to handle that. In terms of code, web pages, etc., we'd follow the (high) standards of the XML Sig. Comments, next steps? /r$ From Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr Wed May 2 18:36:06 2001 From: Nicolas.Chauvat@logilab.fr (Nicolas Chauvat) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:36:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: <3AF04103.A7FA3F01@zolera.com> Message-ID: > Comments, next steps? +1 for web-services-sig (and RDF tools in PyXML ;-) --=20 Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o=F9 est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (F= rance) From Mike.Olson@fourthought.com Wed May 2 19:22:12 2001 From: Mike.Olson@fourthought.com (Mike Olson) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:22:12 -0600 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG References: Message-ID: <3AF05054.E803903D@FourThought.com> Nicolas Chauvat wrote: >=20 > > Comments, next steps? >=20 > +1 for web-services-sig (and RDF tools in PyXML ;-) +1 for me as well Mike >=20 > -- > Nicolas Chauvat >=20 > http://www.logilab.com - "Mais o=F9 est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Pari= s (France) >=20 > _______________________________________________ > XML-SIG maillist - XML-SIG@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/xml-sig --=20 Mike Olson Principal Consultant mike.olson@fourthought.com (303)583-9900 x 102 Fourthought, Inc. http://Fourthought.com=20 Software-engineering, knowledge-management, XML, CORBA, Linux, Python From guido@digicool.com Wed May 2 20:41:48 2001 From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 14:41:48 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 May 2001 13:16:51 -0400." <3AF04103.A7FA3F01@zolera.com> References: <3AF04103.A7FA3F01@zolera.com> Message-ID: <200105021941.OAA03587@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > I'd like to propose a new SIG, Web Services. Web services uses XML and > related standards (schema, wsdl, soap, uddi) to provide a distributed > computing infrastructure. > > There is a great deal of Python activity starting up here -- several > SOAP implementation, interop work, WSDL parsing, etc. Much of the > information exchange has been late-night point-to-point email, and it's > time to provide a visible focal point for this activity. > > Our feeling (a few of us have chatted about this) is that the web > services community generally takes Sax, DOM, etc., "for granted" and > that it makes more sense to create a new SIG rather than be part of > XML-SIG. XML Schema is a likely area of overlap, and we'll work > together to handle that. > > In terms of code, web pages, etc., we'd follow the (high) standards of > the XML Sig. > > Comments, next steps? Read http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html (all of it!). Basically, you need to appoint a volunteer, write a mission statement, and circulate the draft mission statement on the meta-sig. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rsalz@zolera.com Wed May 2 20:23:15 2001 From: rsalz@zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:23:15 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Proposing a web services SIG References: <3AF04103.A7FA3F01@zolera.com> <200105021941.OAA03587@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <3AF05EA3.71F8B4F1@zolera.com> > Read http://www.python.org/sigs/guidelines.html (all of it!). I did. The instructions at the end were fairly casual, and I thought my note was good enough, sorry. Let me try again... > Basically, you need to appoint a volunteer, write a mission statement, > and circulate the draft mission statement on the meta-sig. I'm volunteering to coordinate webservices-sig. Short blurb: make it easy for python programmers to provide and use web services. Longer blurb: Web services uses SOAP, WSDL, UDDI, other standards to provide a distributed component infrastructure. The webservices-sig is focused on providing implementations of these standards so that Python programmers can easily write and use web services (i.e., both clients and servers -- the latter includes HTTPServer, but also other servers such as Apache, Zope, etc.) The initial goal of the SIG will be to develop freely-usable implementations of SOAP, WSDL, and probably UDDI. Some coordination with XML Sig will be necessary, for example, because WSDL uses XML Schema. We will develop a framework for supporting multiple implementations. Thanks. /r$ From martin@loewis.home.cs.tu-berlin.de Wed May 2 23:53:07 2001 From: martin@loewis.home.cs.tu-berlin.de (Martin v. Loewis) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 00:53:07 +0200 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> (message from Uche Ogbuji on Wed, 02 May 2001 12:40:06 -0600) References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> Message-ID: <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > Well, all very well, and I can go either way on new SIG vs. just use > XML-SIG, but does anyone know how to expeditiously go about creating > a Python SIG? I suppose it involves some magic incantations on the > meta-SIG, but I don't know the current state-of-the-SIGS. I just asked to close three of them, so it is probably time to fill the empty space :-) In any case, I think Rich's proposal is missing an expiration/review date for the SIG, yet. Traditionally, SIGs used to expire after one (?) year (after which they could be extended), but with the little review they get after that time, reviewing them every two years is probably as fine. In any case, this is all meta-sig business. Regards, Martin P.S. There is also the issue of the SIG web pages. I'm still looking for comments on whether they ought to live in the Python CVS, or in a separate SF project (which check-in-permissions for all SIG coordinators). From guido@digicool.com Thu May 3 14:46:46 2001 From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 08:46:46 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 May 2001 00:53:07 +0200." <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > P.S. There is also the issue of the SIG web pages. I'm still looking > for comments on whether they ought to live in the Python CVS, or in a > separate SF project (which check-in-permissions for all SIG > coordinators). We're going to redo python.org using Zope, and then SIG owners can maintain their own pages without my help. If you can't wait for that, feel free to set up a SF project for your SIG. Just don't imitate the python.org look and feel. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rsalz@zolera.com Thu May 3 15:11:41 2001 From: rsalz@zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:11:41 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <3AF1671D.1953938B@zolera.com> > In any case, I think Rich's proposal is missing an expiration/review > date for the SIG, yet. Traditionally, SIGs used to expire after one > (?) year (after which they could be extended), but with the little > review they get after that time, reviewing them every two years is > probably as fine. Oops, another mistake. It was confusing that sigs/guidelines.html doesn't repeat the "expiration" item under the "Creation Guidelines" section at the end of the page. Annual "review" of the SIG every May Day, or whenever Guido or his delegates feel appropriate. Success and viability of the SIG should be measured by its ability to provide implementations of the standards defining a web services infrastructure, and perhaps particular applications. From martin@loewis.home.cs.tu-berlin.de Thu May 3 22:12:51 2001 From: martin@loewis.home.cs.tu-berlin.de (Martin v. Loewis) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:12:51 +0200 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> (message from Guido van Rossum on Thu, 03 May 2001 08:46:46 -0500) References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <200105032112.f43LCpD01096@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> > We're going to redo python.org using Zope, and then SIG owners can > maintain their own pages without my help. If you can't wait for that, > feel free to set up a SF project for your SIG. Just don't imitate the > python.org look and feel. Thanks for the information; it is not that urgent. Still I'm curious: What is the expected timeframe for that? Regards, Martin From guido@digicool.com Thu May 3 22:34:57 2001 From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:34:57 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: [XML-SIG] Proposing a web services SIG In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 May 2001 23:12:51 +0200." <200105032112.f43LCpD01096@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> <200105032112.f43LCpD01096@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <200105032134.f43LYvv16628@odiug.digicool.com> > Thanks for the information; it is not that urgent. Still I'm curious: > What is the expected timeframe for that? 4-8 weeks? --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From gstein@lyra.org Fri May 4 09:18:54 2001 From: gstein@lyra.org (Greg Stein) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:18:54 -0700 Subject: [meta-sig] python.org using Zope? (was: Proposing a web services SIG) In-Reply-To: <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com>; from guido@digicool.com on Thu, May 03, 2001 at 08:46:46AM -0500 References: <200105021840.f42Ie6D21877@localhost.local> <200105022253.f42Mr7B01762@mira.informatik.hu-berlin.de> <200105031346.IAA07042@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <20010504011853.W1374@lyra.org> On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 08:46:46AM -0500, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > P.S. There is also the issue of the SIG web pages. I'm still looking > > for comments on whether they ought to live in the Python CVS, or in a > > separate SF project (which check-in-permissions for all SIG > > coordinators). > > We're going to redo python.org using Zope, and then SIG owners can > maintain their own pages without my help. If you can't wait for that, > feel free to set up a SF project for your SIG. Just don't imitate the > python.org look and feel. Euh... can I use FTP or DAV with that? Please don't say that web pages need to be edited in little tiny HTML input boxes... Cheers, -g -- Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/ From rsalz@zolera.com Wed May 9 16:44:56 2001 From: rsalz@zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:44:56 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Web services -- good to go? Message-ID: <200105091544.LAA10781@os390.zolera.com> Can we create the web services SIG now? (By "we" I mean "please could someone with authority", of course.) /r$ From guido@digicool.com Sun May 13 15:51:52 2001 From: guido@digicool.com (Guido van Rossum) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:51:52 -0500 Subject: [meta-sig] Web services -- good to go? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 May 2001 11:44:56 -0400." <200105091544.LAA10781@os390.zolera.com> References: <200105091544.LAA10781@os390.zolera.com> Message-ID: <200105131451.JAA16429@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> > Can we create the web services SIG now? > > (By "we" I mean "please could someone with authority", of course.) > /r$ Rich, I'm sympathetic to the web services SIG idea, but I'm reluctant to create new SIGs based on past experiences -- many sigs get started with enthusiasm, only to fade away within months. I'm not saying that this *will* happen with the web-services-sig, but I'm worried that it's *likely* to happen. I haven't seen a lot of responses to your post. So please help me out. What exactly would a SIG buy you that a sourceforge project wouldn't? Note: we're going to reinvent python.org as a Zope site. This will take a few months (lacking resources to work on it full time), but it *will* happen. Once we have a Zope-based site, I may drop some of my resistance against creating new SIGs: currently every new SIG means maintenance work for me and the other webmasters, but on a Zope site that won't be the case. --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) From rsalz@zolera.com Mon May 14 01:18:42 2001 From: rsalz@zolera.com (Rich Salz) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:18:42 -0400 Subject: [meta-sig] Web services -- good to go? References: <200105091544.LAA10781@os390.zolera.com> <200105131451.JAA16429@cj20424-a.reston1.va.home.com> Message-ID: <3AFF2462.D40D9AC1@zolera.com> > So please help me out. What exactly would a SIG buy you that a > sourceforge project wouldn't? Perhaps nothing other than greater awareness within the Python community. I'm not totally sure, since I don't follow any groups that aren't part of both. One probable reason for the little comment is that I'm probably the only advocate who is on the meta-sig. I don't do Usenet, so I haven't been following comp.lang.python, nor engendered any discussion there. Both of those factors probably made a difference. At any rate, I have no desire to increase your workload, so we'll stick with the SF project. Thanks. /r$