From janssen at parc.com Tue Oct 14 21:46:45 2003 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Tue Oct 14 21:47:52 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 11 Sep 2003 13:53:48 PDT." <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. Here are the two required blurbs: (short one) The Python Web SIG is dedicated to improving Python's support for interacting with World Wide Web services and clients. (long one) The first task should be to create a plan (in the form of a PEP) for bringing the Web support in the standard Python library up to modern standards. This would address capabilities such as (but not limited to) CSS parsing, XHTML parsing and generation support, client-side and server-side SSL support, simple server frameworks, multi-part/form-data POST support, and CGI support. I suggest that we set a time limit of six months for coming up with a plan. Bill From amk at amk.ca Thu Oct 16 10:39:07 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (amk@amk.ca) Date: Thu Oct 16 10:39:33 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> References: <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <20031016143907.GA4406@rogue.amk.ca> On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:46:45PM -0700, Bill Janssen wrote: > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. Looks very good! --amk From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Oct 16 11:43:00 2003 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu Oct 16 11:43:05 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <6BCCDE8F-FFEF-11D7-9282-000393C2D67E@colorstudy.com> On Tuesday, October 14, 2003, at 08:46 PM, Bill Janssen wrote: > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. Looks good, +1. From sdrees at sdrees.de Thu Oct 16 13:17:05 2003 From: sdrees at sdrees.de (Stefan Drees) Date: Thu Oct 16 13:17:09 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> References: <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <20031016171705.GA10425@knoten.biz> On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:46:45PM -0700 - a wonderful day - Bill Janssen wrote: > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. +1 for me, since this looks like a concise plan and a compact time frame. All the best, Stefan Drees. -- Stefan Drees, sdrees@python.net, www.sdrees.org Fingerprint = 516C C4EF 712A B26F 15C9 C7B7 5651 6964 D508 1B56 From barry at python.org Thu Oct 16 14:03:03 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Thu Oct 16 14:03:16 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <20031016143907.GA4406@rogue.amk.ca> References: <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <20031016143907.GA4406@rogue.amk.ca> Message-ID: <1066327383.18702.42.camel@anthem> On Thu, 2003-10-16 at 10:39, amk@amk.ca wrote: > On Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:46:45PM -0700, Bill Janssen wrote: > > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. > > Looks very good! Indeed. If one of the pydotorg'ers can setup/update the web-sig area on www.python.org, I can create the mailing list. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 307 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/meta-sig/attachments/20031016/2afb9aef/attachment.bin From cs1spw at bath.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 14:20:12 2003 From: cs1spw at bath.ac.uk (Simon Willison) Date: Thu Oct 16 14:18:15 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> References: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <3F8EE15C.2030802@bath.ac.uk> Bill Janssen wrote: > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. Looks great to me. There follows some musings about a possible extension to the group's declared purpose: An acknowledged problem with Python for web programming at the moment is the sheer abundance of web development frameworks currently available - newcomers to Python web programming literally have their work cut out just evaluating the options available to them. mod_python (the framework with which I have had the most experience) provides an emulattion of the cgi module's FormFields interface as part of the mod_python package. Other frameworks may do this as well. I think this provides an interesting example of how the multiple framework problem could be partially resolved. If the Python standard library included a well defined interface for common web programming tasks (such as accessing data from forms and cookies, sending cookies and HTTP headers) existing web frameworks could be encouraged to either support this interface natively or provide some kind of wrapper from that interface to the internals of their framework. This would make selecting a web framework a far less dauntinfg process, as code written for one framework would be much easier to port to another. An interesting example of this kind of process (albeit on a much larger scale) is Java's Servlet API specification. This defines the interfaces a Java servlet container must implement, but leaves the implementation details up to the team implementing the spec. This means commercial and open source vendors can create competing servlet engines, and developers have great flexibility in selecting a servlet container and switching to a different one should they run in to problems. I'd like to see the Web SIG define a strong standard interface for common web tasks, which could then be supported by Python web framework authors. Is this a target that would be worth adding to the charter? Best regards, Simon Willison http://simon.incutio.com/ From hpk at trillke.net Thu Oct 16 14:38:09 2003 From: hpk at trillke.net (holger krekel) Date: Thu Oct 16 14:38:22 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com>; from janssen@parc.com on Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:46:45PM -0700 References: <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <20031016203808.C20543@prim.han.de> [Bill Janssen Tue, Oct 14, 2003 at 06:46:45PM -0700] > I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at > http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. > > Here are the two required blurbs: > > (short one) The Python Web SIG is dedicated to improving Python's > support for interacting with World Wide Web services and clients. > > (long one) The first task should be to create a plan (in the form of a > PEP) for bringing the Web support in the standard Python library up to > modern standards. This would address capabilities such as (but not > limited to) CSS parsing, XHTML parsing and generation support, > client-side and server-side SSL support, simple server frameworks, > multi-part/form-data POST support, and CGI support. I suggest that we > set a time limit of six months for coming up with a plan. do you want to come up with API definitions without actually implementing the stuff? Or what exactly do you mean with "a plan"? Maybe I am too careful here but i don't know what happens if we discuss "a plan" for six month :-) holger From ianb at colorstudy.com Thu Oct 16 15:10:33 2003 From: ianb at colorstudy.com (Ian Bicking) Date: Thu Oct 16 15:12:34 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <3F8EE15C.2030802@bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6AA00976-000C-11D8-9282-000393C2D67E@colorstudy.com> On Thursday, October 16, 2003, at 01:20 PM, Simon Willison wrote: > Bill Janssen wrote: >> I've put up a draft charter for a Python Web SIG at >> http://www.parc.com/janssen/transient/websig.html. > > Looks great to me. There follows some musings about a possible > extension to the group's declared purpose: These are good ideas -- I think there's basically a consensus from a before to make a web-sig, and these ideas should be brought up again on that mailing list. The charter is really just a starting point for discussion. -- Ian Bicking | ianb@colorstudy.com | http://blog.ianbicking.org From cs1spw at bath.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 15:17:15 2003 From: cs1spw at bath.ac.uk (Simon Willison) Date: Thu Oct 16 15:15:30 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <6AA00976-000C-11D8-9282-000393C2D67E@colorstudy.com> References: <6AA00976-000C-11D8-9282-000393C2D67E@colorstudy.com> Message-ID: <3F8EEEBB.4060205@bath.ac.uk> Ian Bicking wrote: > These are good ideas -- I think there's basically a consensus from a > before to make a web-sig, and these ideas should be brought up again on > that mailing list. The charter is really just a starting point for > discussion. I'll re-post that to the mailing list once it has been created then. The topics covered seem to be more or less in line with the charter so I can't see any reason for the charter to be modified. Best regards, Simon From amk at amk.ca Thu Oct 16 18:05:18 2003 From: amk at amk.ca (amk@amk.ca) Date: Thu Oct 16 18:05:46 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: <1066327383.18702.42.camel@anthem> References: <03Sep11.135350pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <03Oct14.184646pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> <20031016143907.GA4406@rogue.amk.ca> <1066327383.18702.42.camel@anthem> Message-ID: <20031016220518.GA5971@rogue.amk.ca> On Thu, Oct 16, 2003 at 02:03:03PM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Indeed. If one of the pydotorg'ers can setup/update the web-sig area on > www.python.org, I can create the mailing list. Done: http://www.python.org/sigs/web-sig/ . (Bill, feel free to grab /sigs/web-sig/index.ht, edit it, and send me or the pydotorg list any corrections.) --amk From janssen at parc.com Thu Oct 16 18:47:42 2003 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Thu Oct 16 18:48:06 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:20:12 PDT." <3F8EE15C.2030802@bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <03Oct16.154746pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Simon Willison writes: > I'd like to see the Web SIG define a strong standard interface for > common web tasks, which could then be supported by Python web framework > authors. Is this a target that would be worth adding to the charter? I think this fits well in the server-side work. Defining a standard API for versions of the same task is usually a win. Bill From cs1spw at bath.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 18:53:06 2003 From: cs1spw at bath.ac.uk (Simon Willison) Date: Thu Oct 16 18:51:29 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] [Fwd: Re: confirm ] Message-ID: <3F8F2152.3040007@bath.ac.uk> I just tried to subscribe to the web-sig mailing list and received this message. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Re: confirm 6805196ccb3eb6a716bb48c640ed86bf977d8214 Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:50:18 -0400 From: python.org To: Simon Willison The web-sig mailing list has been retired; the mailing list is inactive, and your administrative request will not be processed. You can, however still view the SIG web page and see the old SIG archive via the web. See http://www.python.org/sigs/retired.html for more information. If you have questions about this, feel free to reply to this message. It will be forwarded to a real person! Thanks! From janssen at parc.com Thu Oct 16 18:51:56 2003 From: janssen at parc.com (Bill Janssen) Date: Thu Oct 16 18:53:05 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] Re: Another try at a Python Web SIG? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:38:09 PDT." <20031016203808.C20543@prim.han.de> Message-ID: <03Oct16.155201pdt."58611"@synergy1.parc.xerox.com> Holger Krekel writes: > do you want to come up with API definitions without actually > implementing the stuff? Or what exactly do you mean with "a plan"? > Maybe I am too careful here but i don't know what happens if we > discuss "a plan" for six month :-) I'd like to come up with a work plan, with names and timelines/milestones assigned to it. If we could do that, we could then extend the charter to get the work done. My feeling is that if we can't come to some agreement on what work to do, there's no point in having a SIG -- individual contributors might as well mail patches and modules to python-dev. On the other hand, I'd expect most of the contributors would be either already sitting on most of the code they would need, to accomplish what they had signed up for, or have a very clear idea of what they were going to do to achieve it. Arguments about "let's do this" are much more convincing (to me) if they also contain "See, here's how I did it, isn't it pretty?" :-). Bill From barry at python.org Fri Oct 17 09:17:02 2003 From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw) Date: Fri Oct 17 09:17:07 2003 Subject: [meta-sig] [Fwd: Re: confirm ] In-Reply-To: <3F8F2152.3040007@bath.ac.uk> References: <3F8F2152.3040007@bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1066396622.18702.73.camel@anthem> On Thu, 2003-10-16 at 18:53, Simon Willison wrote: > I just tried to subscribe to the web-sig mailing list and received this > message. Ah, there was one more file I needed to twiddle to unretire the sig. Done, so please try again. -Barry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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