[Numpy-discussion] Tidelift

Andy Ray Terrel andy.terrel at gmail.com
Tue Sep 18 23:29:47 EDT 2018


On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
> <stefanv at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
> >> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks
> want
> >> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
> >> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
> >> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or
> for
> >> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
> >> "Numpy developers are eligible".
> >
> > On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> > the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> > whole).
> >
> > This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> > project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> > expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> > will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> > to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> > increase the amount of time donated to the project?
> >
> > There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> > not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> > issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
> >
> > One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> > able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> > second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]
>
> Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
> doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
> approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
> account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
> distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
> If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
> currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
> more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
> work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.
>
> -n
>
> --
> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org




The contract [0] mentions:

 "Tidelift wants to pay you to provide certain software maintenance,
support, analysis, or other services to Tidelift and Tidelift’s Subscribers
(the “Service,” as further defined below), and you want to provide such
services."

Depending on the context of these services, money to a 501c3 might not be
the best approach. There is some nuance to whether a company is paying for
a public good or a non-profit is providing a private service. At a minimum
if it is really "only doing the work maintainers do anyways" then we need
to write a better contract that says that. On the other hand if it is $5K
for a small set of independent consultants, it might be nice money for
folks but is a far cry from "paying the maintainers" model that they are
marketing, more like "paying consultants" which is a lucrative business for
many already. I would love to see it grow to paying a living wage to all
maintainers so I think it is in our interest to try and help Tidelift
overcome some of these challenges.

-- Andy

[0] https://tidelift.com/docs/lifting/agreement

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nathaniel Smith <njs at pobox.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:04 PM, Stefan van der Walt
> <stefanv at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 16:54:16 -0500, Andy Ray Terrel wrote:
> >> FYI, Donald Fischer will be at the NumFOCUS forum next week if folks
> want
> >> to talk to him about it. It looks like individuals sign up with Tidelift
> >> and perform services to be paid this money. Looking at the contract it
> >> doesn't seem like something that works with anything but individuals or
> for
> >> profit companies. Thus I don't know that "Numpy is eligible" more that
> >> "Numpy developers are eligible".
> >
> > On the website, they ask that all the maintainers discuss together how
> > the funds will be applied (the total given is for the project as a
> > whole).
> >
> > This seems tricky: all the maintainers are spending their time on the
> > project.  Which ones will get paid?  Will the ones getting paid be
> > expected to put in extra hours on top of what they are already doing, or
> > will they carry a more "formal" responsibility?  Perhaps it makes sense
> > to fund specific activities, such as being release manager, that
> > increase the amount of time donated to the project?
> >
> > There are other subtleties: some developers work for companies that do
> > not allow them to get paid for external consulting, others have visa
> > issues that prevent them from working for compensation.
> >
> > One useful gain could be to incentivize those who would otherwise not be
> > able to contribute.  Parents taking care of children, those who take
> > second jobs to survive, students, etc. [0]
>
> Assuming the details work out, and that it really is "free money" for
> doing the things we're already doing, then I guess the obvious
> approach would be to accept, put the money into the NumFOCUS project
> account (alongside the money we get from donations etc.), and then
> distribute it using the existing mechanisms for managing that money.
> If it's really only $5k/year, then that's comparable to what we
> currently get and we can use it to fund meetings or whatever; if it's
> more, then we can consider using some to contract with individuals to
> work on numpy, or whatever makes sense.
>
> -n
>
> --
> Nathaniel J. Smith -- https://vorpus.org
> _______________________________________________
> NumPy-Discussion mailing list
> NumPy-Discussion at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
>
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