[Numpy-discussion] Officially drop Python 3.6 from NumPy 1.20 (was: NumPy 1.20.x branch in two weeks)

Tue Dec 1 18:53:14 EST 2020

Hi all,

It looks like Python 3.6 support has not been dropped.  For example,
- https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/setup.py#L30
- https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/master/setup.py#L43
- https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/maintenance/1.20.x/setup.py#L29
- https://github.com/numpy/numpy/blob/maintenance/1.20.x/setup.py#L43

Other files (e.g., tox.ini) also make it appear that 3.6 has not been dropped.

Did you decide to not drop Python 3.6?  (Sorry if I missed the discussion.)

Best regards,
Jarrod

PS.  I am trying to decide whether NetworkX should drop 3.6 and prefer
to follow NumPy's lead rather than NEP 29.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 7:28 AM Sebastian Berg
<sebastian at sipsolutions.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> just to note: We discussed this yesterday briefly and decided to drop
> official support for 3.6 in the 1.20 release.  We never had ambition to
> support 1.20 and there seems advantage in dropping it, if mainly for
> clarity and consistency with many other projects.
>
> If you disagree with this decision, please just bring it up so we can
> reconsider.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sebastian
>
>
> PS: We may keep testing on 3.6 for the moment, at least for PyPy for
> technical reasons.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2020-11-03 at 11:58 -0800, Brigitta Sipocz wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > For what it's worth, python 3.6 is also dropped for astropy 4.2 (RC1
> > to be
> > released in the next few days). We haven't yet formally adopted
> > NEP29, but
> > are very close to it peding some word smithing, and no one from the
> > dev
> > team was fighting for keeping support for 3.6. or numpy 1.16.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >  Brigitta
> >
> > On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 10:53, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I am in favor of dropping py36 for np1.20, I think it would be good
> > > to
> > > lead by example.
> > >
> > > Similar to pandas, the next Matplotlib release (3.4 targeted for
> > > Dec/Jan)
> > > will not support py36.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mark Harfouche <
> > > mark.harfouche at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Juan made a pretty good argument for keeping 3.6 support in the
> > > > next
> > > > scikit-image release, let me try to paraphrase:
> > > >
> > > > - Since nobody has made the PR to explicitly drop python 3.6 from
> > > > the
> > > > scikit-image build matrix, we will continue to support it, but if
> > > > somebody
> > > > were to make the PR, I (Juan) would support it.
> > > >
> > > > As for supporting PyPy: it already exists in the build matrix
> > > > AFAICT.
> > > > Breaking PyPy would be a deliberate action, as opposed to an
> > > > accidental
> > > > byproduct of dropping CPython 3.6.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 13:50 Sebastian Berg <
> > > > sebastian at sipsolutions.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 2020-11-02 at 06:49 -0600, Juan Nunez-Iglesias wrote:
> > > > > > I like Ralf's email, and most of all I agree that the
> > > > > > existing
> > > > > > wording is clearer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My view on the NEP is that it does not mandate dropping
> > > > > > support, but
> > > > > > encourage it. In my projects I would drop it if I had use for
> > > > > > Python
> > > > > > 3.7+ features. It so happens that we want to use PEP-593 so
> > > > > > we were
> > > > > > grateful for NEP-29 giving us "permission" to drop 3.6.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would suggest that 3.6 be dropped immediately if there are
> > > > > > any open
> > > > > > PRs that would benefit from it, or code cleanups that it
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > enable. The point of the NEP is to short-circuit discussion
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > whether it's "worth" dropping 3.6. If it's valuable at all,
> > > > > > do it.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Probably the only thing that requires 3.7 in NumPy at this time
> > > > > is the
> > > > > module level `__getattr__`, which is used only for deprecations
> > > > > (and to
> > > > > make the financial removal slightly more gentle).
> > > > > I am not sure if PyPy already has stable support for 3.7 yet?
> > > > > Although
> > > > > PyPy is maybe not a big priority.
> > > > >
> > > > > We don't have to support 3.6 and I don't care if we do. Until
> > > > > this
> > > > > discussion my assumption was we would probably drop it.
> > > > >
> > > > > But, current master is tested against 3.6, so the main work
> > > > > seems
> > > > > release related. If Chuck thinks that is no hassle I don't mind
> > > > > if
> > > > > NumPy is a bit more conservative than NEP 29.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or is there a danger of setting a precedent where projects are
> > > > > wrongly
> > > > > expected to keep support just because NumPy still has it, so
> > > > > that NumPy
> > > > > not being conservative actually helps everyone?
> > > > >
> > > > > - Sebastian
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Juan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, 2 Nov 2020, at 2:01 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote:
> > > > > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 7:47 AM Stephan Hoyer <
> > > > > > > shoyer at gmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 7:47 PM Stefan van der Walt <
> > > > > > > > stefanv at berkeley.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, at 18:54, Jarrod Millman wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > I also misunderstood the purpose of the NEP.  I
> > > > > > > > > > assumed it
> > > > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > intended to encourage projects to drop old versions
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > Python.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It was. It is. I think the NEP is very clear on that.
> > > > > > > Honestly we
> > > > > > > should just follow the NEP and drop 3.6 now for both NumPy
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > SciPy, I just am tired of arguing for it - which the NEP
> > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > have prevented being necessary, and I don't want to do
> > > > > > > again right
> > > > > > > now, so this will probably be my last email on this thread.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Other
> > > > > > > > > > people have viewed the NEP similarly:
> > > > > > > > > > https://github.com/networkx/networkx/issues/4027
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Of all the packages, it makes sense for NumPy to behave
> > > > > > > > > most
> > > > > > > > > conservatively with depreciations. The NEP suggests
> > > > > > > > > allowable
> > > > > > > > > support periods, but as far as I recall does not
> > > > > > > > > enforce
> > > > > > > > > minimal support.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It doesn't *enforce* it, but the recommendation is very
> > > > > > > clear. It
> > > > > > > would be good to follow it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Stephan Hoyer had a good recommendation on how we can
> > > > > > > > > clarify
> > > > > > > > > the NEP to be easier to intuit. Stephan, shall we make
> > > > > > > > > an
> > > > > > > > > ammendment to the NEP with your idea?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For reference, here was my proposed revision:
> > > > > > > > https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/14086#issuecomment-649287648
> > > > > > > > Specifically, rather than saying "the latest release of
> > > > > > > > NumPy
> > > > > > > > supports all versions of Python released in the 42 months
> > > > > > > > before
> > > > > > > > NumPy's release", it says "NumPy will only require
> > > > > > > > versions of
> > > > > > > > Python that were released more than 24 months ago". In
> > > > > > > > practice,
> > > > > > > > this works out to the same thing (at least given Python's
> > > > > > > > old 18
> > > > > > > > month release cycle).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This changes the definition of the support window (in a
> > > > > > > > way that
> > > > > > > > I think is clearer and that works better for infrequent
> > > > > > > > releases), but there is still the question of how large
> > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > window should be for NumPy.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm not sure it's clearer, the current NEP has a nice
> > > > > > > graphic and
> > > > > > > literally says "a project with a major or minor version
> > > > > > > release in
> > > > > > > November 2020 should support Python 3.7 and newer.").
> > > > > > > However happy
> > > > > > > to adopt it if it makes others happy - in the end it comes
> > > > > > > down to
> > > > > > > the same thing: it's recommended to drop Python 3.6 now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My personal opinion is that somewhere in the range of 24-
> > > > > > > > 36
> > > > > > > > months would be appropriate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > +1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > Ralf
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Thomas Caswell
> > > tcaswell at gmail.com
> > > _______________________________________________
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