[Numpy-discussion] NumPy 1.20.x branch in two weeks

Tue Nov 3 13:49:39 EST 2020

I am in favor of dropping py36 for np1.20, I think it would be good to lead
by example.

Similar to pandas, the next Matplotlib release (3.4 targeted for Dec/Jan)
will not support py36.

Tom

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 9:18 AM Mark Harfouche <mark.harfouche at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Juan made a pretty good argument for keeping 3.6 support in the next
> scikit-image release, let me try to paraphrase:
>
> - Since nobody has made the PR to explicitly drop python 3.6 from the
> scikit-image build matrix, we will continue to support it, but if somebody
> were to make the PR, I (Juan) would support it.
>
> As for supporting PyPy: it already exists in the build matrix AFAICT.
> Breaking PyPy would be a deliberate action, as opposed to an accidental
> byproduct of dropping CPython 3.6.
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 13:50 Sebastian Berg <sebastian at sipsolutions.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 2020-11-02 at 06:49 -0600, Juan Nunez-Iglesias wrote:
>> > I like Ralf's email, and most of all I agree that the existing
>> > wording is clearer.
>> >
>> > My view on the NEP is that it does not mandate dropping support, but
>> > encourage it. In my projects I would drop it if I had use for Python
>> > 3.7+ features. It so happens that we want to use PEP-593 so we were
>> > grateful for NEP-29 giving us "permission" to drop 3.6.
>> >
>> > I would suggest that 3.6 be dropped immediately if there are any open
>> > PRs that would benefit from it, or code cleanups that it would
>> > enable. The point of the NEP is to short-circuit discussion about
>> > whether it's "worth" dropping 3.6. If it's valuable at all, do it.
>> >
>>
>> Probably the only thing that requires 3.7 in NumPy at this time is the
>> module level `__getattr__`, which is used only for deprecations (and to
>> make the financial removal slightly more gentle).
>> I am not sure if PyPy already has stable support for 3.7 yet? Although
>> PyPy is maybe not a big priority.
>>
>> We don't have to support 3.6 and I don't care if we do. Until this
>> discussion my assumption was we would probably drop it.
>>
>> But, current master is tested against 3.6, so the main work seems
>> release related. If Chuck thinks that is no hassle I don't mind if
>> NumPy is a bit more conservative than NEP 29.
>>
>> Or is there a danger of setting a precedent where projects are wrongly
>> expected to keep support just because NumPy still has it, so that NumPy
>> not being conservative actually helps everyone?
>>
>> - Sebastian
>>
>>
>> > Thanks all,
>> >
>> > Juan.
>> >
>> > On Mon, 2 Nov 2020, at 2:01 AM, Ralf Gommers wrote:
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 7:47 AM Stephan Hoyer <shoyer at gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2020 at 7:47 PM Stefan van der Walt <
>> > > > stefanv at berkeley.edu> wrote:
>> > > > > On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, at 18:54, Jarrod Millman wrote:
>> > > > > > I also misunderstood the purpose of the NEP.  I assumed it
>> > > > > > was
>> > > > > > intended to encourage projects to drop old versions of
>> > > > > > Python.
>> > >
>> > > It was. It is. I think the NEP is very clear on that. Honestly we
>> > > should just follow the NEP and drop 3.6 now for both NumPy and
>> > > SciPy, I just am tired of arguing for it - which the NEP should
>> > > have prevented being necessary, and I don't want to do again right
>> > > now, so this will probably be my last email on this thread.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > > Other
>> > > > > > people have viewed the NEP similarly:
>> > > > > > https://github.com/networkx/networkx/issues/4027
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Of all the packages, it makes sense for NumPy to behave most
>> > > > > conservatively with depreciations. The NEP suggests allowable
>> > > > > support periods, but as far as I recall does not enforce
>> > > > > minimal support.
>> > >
>> > > It doesn't *enforce* it, but the recommendation is very clear. It
>> > > would be good to follow it.
>> > >
>> > > > > Stephan Hoyer had a good recommendation on how we can clarify
>> > > > > the NEP to be easier to intuit. Stephan, shall we make an
>> > > > > ammendment to the NEP with your idea?
>> > > >
>> > > > For reference, here was my proposed revision:
>> > > > https://github.com/numpy/numpy/pull/14086#issuecomment-649287648
>> > > > Specifically, rather than saying "the latest release of NumPy
>> > > > supports all versions of Python released in the 42 months before
>> > > > NumPy's release", it says "NumPy will only require versions of
>> > > > Python that were released more than 24 months ago". In practice,
>> > > > this works out to the same thing (at least given Python's old 18
>> > > > month release cycle).
>> > > >
>> > > > This changes the definition of the support window (in a way that
>> > > > I think is clearer and that works better for infrequent
>> > > > releases), but there is still the question of how large that
>> > > > window should be for NumPy.
>> > >
>> > > I'm not sure it's clearer, the current NEP has a nice graphic and
>> > > literally says "a project with a major or minor version release in
>> > > November 2020 should support Python 3.7 and newer."). However happy
>> > > to adopt it if it makes others happy - in the end it comes down to
>> > > the same thing: it's recommended to drop Python 3.6 now.
>> > >
>> > > > My personal opinion is that somewhere in the range of 24-36
>> > > > months would be appropriate.
>> > >
>> > > +1
>> > >
>> > > Cheers,
>> > > Ralf
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > > NumPy-Discussion at python.org
>> > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/numpy-discussion
>> > >
>> >
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-- 
Thomas Caswell
tcaswell at gmail.com
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