[Pandas-dev] Discourse discussion forum

Tue Oct 29 13:09:08 EDT 2019

I don't have a strong opinion here. Happy to go with what works best.

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 12:07 PM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:

> I personally don't see the value of having a common discourse for all the
> projects, where the top-level is a list of possibly 100 items, where pandas
> has few groups lost there, and not more structure than that, as opposed to
> have a discourse per project.
>
> Single-login is the only advantage I can see, and this can also be
> achieved with separate groups for what I've seen.
>
> Tom, Joris, I think you were the ones who preferred having a common
> discourse. Does it still sounds as the best option, given the limitations?
>
> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 11:51 AM Andy Ray Terrel <andy at numfocus.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry I've been traveling.
>>
>> I have https://pydata.discourse. <http://pydata.discourse.org>group set
>> up. I can send out invites.
>>
>> I guess as you have pointed out, we can set up categories for each
>> project, e.g. dask-users, pandas-users, pandas-dev, but maybe not exactly
>> what you want.
>>
>> Happy to invite anyone to the discourse instance before we open it up to
>> the wild
>>
>> -- Andy
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 9:24 AM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Andy, could you experiment on having multiple projects in a single
>>> discourse? I saw the PyData one was activated some time ago.
>>>
>>> If it doesn't look feasible as I think, let me know so I'll move forward
>>> discussing what to have in the pandas one.
>>>
>>> Cheers!
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 8:03 AM Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Discourse has private categories, we already have a private
>>>> "Maintainers" one, that only admins can see and use. And there are other
>>>> permissions levels that can be used. For example, we can have a private
>>>> category for the memebers of the code of conduct committee... I just need
>>>> to check if we can associate email addresses to those groups, so when
>>>> someone emails to coc at pandas.io the messages are posted in that
>>>> private group. But if we can set up that as we need, I think we should be
>>>> able to replace all those and centralize everything in Discourse.
>>>>
>>>> I'm skeptical on being able to set up a global Discourse for all the
>>>> ecosystem, where things are easy to find, based on how Discourse works and
>>>> the tests I did. I'd move forward with our own for now if nobody is able to
>>>> set that up.
>>>>
>>>> Andy, I got the pandas account approved in minutes. I see that we can
>>>> have a custom domain, so you can use the pandas and see if we can manage to
>>>> have multiple projects in a way we like, and if we do we just change the
>>>> domain to discuss.pydata.org (or whatever). You're already an admin,
>>>> feel free to experiment and change the set up as you need.
>>>>
>>>> Maarten, not sure I understand your point. Not a fan of Discourse so
>>>> far, but I think having the user and the devs discussions in a single place
>>>> makes it easier to find the information, and I think Discourse interface
>>>> also makes it easier to find compared to mailman, or google groups.
>>>> Regardless of gitter (there are no important discussions or decision making
>>>> there I think), would you prefer to stay with mailman and google groups
>>>> over Discourse? Or what you think would be the ideal or best option?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 8:39 AM Joris Van den Bossche <
>>>> jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What do other people think about starting to use discourse for pandas?
>>>>> (and about sharing it with other projects or having our own?)
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> On the existing lists: I don't think discourse would replace the core
>>>>> devs list (that is intentionally private). And IMO also not gitter
>>>>> (discourse is not a real-time chat).
>>>>>
>>>>> Joris
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 14:58, Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For what I've seen I'd say that Discourse can be configured to
>>>>>> interact with a category like a distribution list (subscribe and have an
>>>>>> email address to send messages there). Not sure, but for the settings I've
>>>>>> seen should be possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Personally I think it should replace all the existing lists:
>>>>>> - pydata google group
>>>>>> - pandas-dev (this)
>>>>>> - core devs list
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm also ok to get rid of gitter once we move to discourse (also ok
>>>>>> to keep it if people find it useful, but I rarely use it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I created an issue for this discussion some time ago:
>>>>>> https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/issues/27903
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 1:50 PM Tom Augspurger <
>>>>>> tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:57 AM Andy Terrel <andy at numfocus.org>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Joris for splitting the thread, sorry if I hijacked the
>>>>>>>> other one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For some discussion from numpy you can see here
>>>>>>>> https://github.com/numpy/numpy.org/issues/28
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julia and Jupyter both run their own discourse but Dask, Numpy,
>>>>>>>> Scipy have all told me “I don’t want to run it ourselves but be part of a
>>>>>>>> larger one”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I bet we can figure out how to organize it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just put in an application to get pydata.discourse.org.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> — Andy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 6:52 AM Joris Van den Bossche <
>>>>>>>> jorisvandenbossche at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (let's use a new thread for discourse, as it is a different
>>>>>>>>> discussion from the website hosting I think, regardless whether OVH might
>>>>>>>>> also host discourse)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not familiar enough myself with discourse to know whether
>>>>>>>>> multiple projects sharing a single discourse will become annoying. But
>>>>>>>>> indeed, that sounds as it needs some kind of hierarchical category /
>>>>>>>>> tagging.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For pandas itself: I think I quite like the idea of having a
>>>>>>>>> discourse, but *if* we do that, we should think about how that
>>>>>>>>> fits with / replaces / adds to /... some of the other communication
>>>>>>>>> channels (pandas-dev mailing list, pydata mailing list, github issues, ..).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IMO, we can replace the pandas-dev & pydata mailing lists with it.
>>>>>>> Possibly gitter as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Joris
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 13:18, Marc Garcia <garcia.marc at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine with that conceptually, but I think Discourse will make
>>>>>>>>>> things quite tricky to find things then.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We already got our discourse approved, if you want to join it an
>>>>>>>>>> experiment with the setting. But it's the first thing I tried, and after
>>>>>>>>>> you join a category (project), everything feels like it's in the same place
>>>>>>>>>> (even if subcategories and tags exist). And I think we need at least a
>>>>>>>>>> clear separation between pandas/users pandas/contributors discussions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> May be I just couldn't find the settings, let me know if you
>>>>>>>>>> manage to get a multi-project set up that makes sense.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:07 PM Tom Augspurger <
>>>>>>>>>> tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd prefer to join a discourse along with NumPy, Dask, and other
>>>>>>>>>>> PyData or NumFOCUS projects, rather than going out on our own.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 4:47 AM Marc Garcia <
>>>>>>>>>>> garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know much about discourse, but why do we want to
>>>>>>>>>>>> self-host it? Seems like Discourse does it for free for open source
>>>>>>>>>>>> projects: https://free.discourse.group/ And I don't think we
>>>>>>>>>>>> want another system to maintain. Am I missing something?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I applied for https://pandas.discourse.group, so we can give
>>>>>>>>>>>> it a try. We should have it approved and working in couple of days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For what I saw, Discourse has one level of categories, so I
>>>>>>>>>>>> guess we want one per project, so we can have categories for "Users",
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Contributors", "Ecosystem"... or something similar. I guess if we have a
>>>>>>>>>>>> single Discourse for NumFOCUS, every project will be a category, and it'll
>>>>>>>>>>>> be difficult to group conversations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If anyone already has experience with Discourse and disagrees
>>>>>>>>>>>> with my guesses, please let me know.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 4:32 PM Andy Terrel <andy at numfocus.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds great to me. Just let me know where everything goes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NumPy wants me to help host a discourse for them, maybe OVH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be a good place to do that as well, (although I would be more
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclinded if it was pydata and we had pandas, scipy, and numpy on it).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- Andy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 8:51 AM Tom Augspurger <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tom.augspurger88 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sounds good w.r.t crediting OVH on those pages.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the ASV results at pandas.pydata.org/speed (which I now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice is currently broken for pandas), the only thing on the webserver is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cron job doing a `git pull` from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/asv-runner/asv-collection, from within
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> `/usr/share/nginx`.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 8:18 AM Marc Garcia <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> An update on the new website infrastructure. We need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finish discussing the details, but OVH is happy to provide the hosting for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pandas infrastructure we need.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> My initial idea is to credit them in the page with the rest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the sponsors in the new website:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://datapythonista.github.io/pandas-web/community/team.html#institutional-partners and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also in the top right corner of the runnable code widgets (see for example
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where Binder is credited here: https://spacy.io/).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I'd like to ask is:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. For the production website and docs (static content only,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the traffic we need):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://us.ovhcloud.com/products/public-cloud/object-storage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2. For our tools and processes, like the benchmarks, builds,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CI stuff (temporary publish the docs for every PR,...):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ovh.co.uk/vps/vps-ssd.xml (VPS SSD 3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3. For BinderHub (runnable code in our docs, launch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tutorials on Binder...):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ovh.co.uk/public-cloud/kubernetes/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the BinderHub, QuantStack offered help with the set up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which is great, because I don't know much about Binder myself, and I'm not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure if anyone else does or wants to take care of this). I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it'll be easy to estimate how big is the cluster we need beforehand, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess we can add things to Binder iteratively, and have more info as we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OVH gave us a 200 euros voucher to experiment with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different services. Let me know how all this sounds, and if there are no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objections, I'll create an account and buy those services with the voucher,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll start to prototype and see how everything works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 11:06 PM Marc Garcia <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> garcia.marc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Somehow related to the work on the new website (
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas/pull/28014), I've
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been discussing with the Binder team, and looks like should be quite easy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> soon (with a Sphinx extension) to make all the documentation pages runnable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Binder, directly from the website (without opening the page as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jupyter in mybinder).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While they are very happy with the idea of having this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pandas, it's uncertain if the current infrastructure Binder has got, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to handle all the traffic we would send. And scikit-learn is working
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on it too (today they added to the dev docs a link to mybinder to run the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> examples).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm discussing with OVH (their infrastructure provider) on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether they'd be happy to provide a dedicated BinderHub specific to pandas
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (or may be we can have one for all NumFOCUS projects). We'll see how it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> goes, but wanted to let you know, so you're updated, and in case anyone is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in participating in the discussions. Of course before any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decision is made I'll open a discussion here or on GitHub.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As part of the discussion I'm also trying to get a server
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the website, and one for development stuff. Specfically for the dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docs (including rendered docs of every PR) and the GitHub app that will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generate them. I guess it should be very easy to find a sponsor for these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two servers (in exchange of a small note in the footer of the website, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like that).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me know if you have any comment, want to be involved or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Andy R. Terrel, PhD
>>>>>>>>>>>>> President
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NumFOCUS
>>>>>>>>>>>>> andy at numfocus.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Andy R. Terrel, PhD
>>>>>>>> President
>>>>>>>> NumFOCUS
>>>>>>>> andy at numfocus.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>>>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Pandas-dev mailing list
>>> Pandas-dev at python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pandas-dev
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andy R. Terrel, PhD
>> President, NumFOCUS
>> andy at numfocus.org
>>
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