[Pydotorg-redesign] how to search the site

[Tim Parkin]

Hi all,

I'm getting to the point where I'm knocking out some html for the python
site to see what can be done and can't be done. (at this point I'm sure
everything can be done but to what extent and how efficiently we'll
see). 

My big (BIG!!!) question is support for netscape 4. 

I'd love to be able to make sure it works visually in netscape 4 but if
we have to do that then we lose an incredible amount of the advantages
of css and semantic html. Basically if we want it to work in netscape 4
then I think we're back to tables (unless someone thinks the design can
be implemented in css layout and still work in netscape, I've tried and
not had much success).

If it's an absolute must then we'll have to try harder or dump the
design. If, like many many other sites on the Internet, we say we can
live as long as the site is usable in netscape, then we're back onto a
winner. This might mean that the site becomes very much a text site (no
images, lynx style layout) or we can play with style sheets to see if we
can come up with an alternative and simpler layout for netscape
(filtered using style sheet hacks).

I'd really like to be able to build the site using full semantic
HTML/css layout as it would make it extrememly fast / accessible and
also get a lot of attention from a lot of web developers.

If you want to see the sort of html I'm talking about and how it renders
in things like Lynx, check out 

Shown with enlarged font :
"Developer Works HTML at large font size"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/DeveloperWorks-ScaledFont.g
if>
"Python Proof of Concept HTML at large font size"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/PythonProofOfConcept-Scaled
Font.gif

Shown with CSS removed :
"Developer Works HTML at large font size with CSS removed"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/DeveloperWorks-ScaledFont-N
oCSS.gif
"Python Proof of Concept HTML at large font size with CSS removed"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/PythonProofOfConcept-Scaled
Font-NoCSS.gif 

Shown in Lynx :
"Developer Works HTML in Lynx"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/DeveloperWorks-Lynx.gif
"Python Proof of Concept HTML in Lynx"
http://pollenation.net/journal/assets/images/PythonProofOfConcept-Lynx.g
if

The css removed is an example of what it would look like in netscape 4
(obviously with a smaller font if that's whats specified) if we don't
aply any alternative styling. If we don't require 100% visual integrity
in netscape 4, then I think we can make netscape look a lot better than
that.

Hope this hasn't just confused people... Just to restate the basic
question

Do we :-

1) Say we need netscape 4 to look exactly like the design and sacrifice
a lot of the advantages of modern CSS etc

2) Say we can compromise on netscape 4 as long as it's usable and
presentable and allow us to use all the modern facilities that css2/dom
etc give us.

My answer is 2 but I think you expected that :-) ....

Tim

----------------------------------------------
Tim Parkin
Managing Director
Pollenation Internet Ltd
www.pollenation.net
m : 07980 59 47 68
t : 01132 25 25 00

-----Original Message-----
From: pydotorg-redesign-bounces at python.org
[mailto:pydotorg-redesign-bounces at python.org] On Behalf Of Simon
Willison
Sent: 14 September 2003 02:36
To: Barry Warsaw
Cc: pydotorg-redesign at python.org
Subject: Re: [Pydotorg-redesign] how to search the site


Barry Warsaw wrote:
> If I were to cast my vote <wink> I'd go for the thing that takes the
> least amount of effort to set up and maintain, that doesn't suck.
Bonus
> points if we include the mailing list archives as a search corpus.

I just took a look at the mailing list archives and they total just over

700 MB(!) - the largest is Python-Dev at 111 MB. Loading that lot in to 
a search engine could be a painful task. It looks like Google has 
indexed them all (incredibly) so a targetted Google search limited to 
the mail.python.org domain would probably suffice for mailing lists.

I still think there is a big advantage to be had in rolling a custom 
search engine for the site though - the ability to highlight certain 
site areas for specific keywords for example. I wonder if it would be 
possible to use the Google web services API to power a Python.org search

engine? The API terms and conditions www.google.com/apis/api_terms.html 
say this:

"""
The Google Web APIs service is made available to you for your personal, 
non-commercial use only (at home or at work) [ ... ] And you may not use

the search results provided by the Google Web APIs service with an 
existing product or service that competes with products or services 
offered by Google.
"""

I have no idea if a search engine for Python.org would count as 
"competing with products or services offered by Google". If it doesn't, 
a Google API powered search engine would give us all of the benefits of 
Google while still allowing the Python site to apply a custom template 
to the results and other enhancements (such as recommeded site areas for

specific keywords).

Cheers,

Simon


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