From mfoord at python.org  Thu Jul  1 15:55:28 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 14:55:28 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Embedding the Google Python Release Schedule
	calendar
In-Reply-To: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>
References: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>
Message-ID: <4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>

On 25/06/2010 21:54, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> I've updated the Google Python Release Schedule calendar.  I think it would be
> nice to embed it either on the front page or on the /dev page.  It's an
> iframe, which probably means something to someone on this list<wink>.
>
> Here's what Google tells me to use to embed the calendar:
>
> <iframe src="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=b6v58qvojllt0i6ql654r1vh00%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York" style="border: 0" width="800" height="600" frameborder="0" scrolling="no"></iframe>
>    

Hmm... adding that to the sidebar does what the html says on the tin - 
it embeds an 800x600 iframe which stretches "a bit" over the sidebar and 
into the content.

Here's some html which embeds just the "agenda view" in the sidebar:

<div style="align:center; padding-top: 0.0em; padding-left: 0em">
<iframe 
src="https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?title=Release%20Schedule&amp;showNav=0&amp;showDate=0&amp;showPrint=0&amp;showTabs=0&amp;showCalendars=0&amp;showTz=0&amp;mode=AGENDA&amp;height=300&amp;wkst=1&amp;bgcolor=%23FFFFFF&amp;src=b6v58qvojllt0i6ql654r1vh00%40group.calendar.google.com&amp;color=%23B1365F&amp;" 
style=" border-width:0 " width="200" height="300" frameborder="0" 
scrolling="no"></iframe>
</div>

I've attached a screenshot of how it looks (Safari on Mac OS X) when I 
add this to pydotorg.tmpl. This adds the schedule to every page in the 
main site. I couldn't work out how to just add it to the /dev/ subfolder.

Shall I add this as is or can someone suggest amendments?

Michael
> Thanks!
> -Barry
>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100701/314898ec/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Screen shot 2010-07-01 at 14.52.14.png
Type: image/png
Size: 182483 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100701/314898ec/attachment-0001.png>

From barry at python.org  Thu Jul  1 16:25:37 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:25:37 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Embedding the Google Python Release Schedule
 calendar
In-Reply-To: <4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
References: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>
	<4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100701102537.34cbe83f@heresy>

On Jul 01, 2010, at 02:55 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

>I've attached a screenshot of how it looks (Safari on Mac OS X) when I
>add this to pydotorg.tmpl. This adds the schedule to every page in the
>main site. I couldn't work out how to just add it to the /dev/
>subfolder.
>
>Shall I add this as is or can someone suggest amendments?

I really like it.  Without seeing it, I don't think I mind that it's on every
page.  JFDI.  (And thanks!)

-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100701/47324d6f/attachment.pgp>

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Jul  1 16:35:22 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 15:35:22 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Embedding the Google Python Release Schedule
	calendar
In-Reply-To: <20100701102537.34cbe83f@heresy>
References: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>	<4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
	<20100701102537.34cbe83f@heresy>
Message-ID: <4C2CA7AA.7050908@python.org>

On 01/07/2010 15:25, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 01, 2010, at 02:55 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
>
>    
>> I've attached a screenshot of how it looks (Safari on Mac OS X) when I
>> add this to pydotorg.tmpl. This adds the schedule to every page in the
>> main site. I couldn't work out how to just add it to the /dev/
>> subfolder.
>>
>> Shall I add this as is or can someone suggest amendments?
>>      
> I really like it.  Without seeing it, I don't think I mind that it's on every
> page.  JFDI.  (And thanks!)
>    

Ok, I've committed it after reducing the width slightly to 180px and 
adding a link to the iCal calendar for browsers that don't support iframes.

It may require a "make clean" on the server to rebuild the site with the 
modified template. This gives an opportunity for others with commit 
rights to tweak the appearance.

All the best,

Michael

> -Barry
>    
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100701/b86fbfa5/attachment.html>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu Jul  1 21:02:46 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:02:46 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Embedding the Google Python Release Schedule
	calendar
In-Reply-To: <4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
References: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>
	<4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilzf4eKnWXGst49sOQhZAOBLUC_E7xaBy5etp46@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> On 25/06/2010 21:54, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> I've updated the Google Python Release Schedule calendar.  I think it would
> be nice to embed it either on the front page or on the /dev page.

I think http://python.org/dev/ page is good.

> It's an iframe, which probably means something to someone on this list <wink>.

/me stares as if asking "Huh?"

> I've attached a screenshot of how it looks (Safari on Mac OS X) when I add
> this to pydotorg.tmpl. This adds the schedule to every page in the main
> site. I couldn't work out how to just add it to the /dev/ subfolder.

It looks awesome. The pity it is impossible to lock it on /dev/ page
in the top right corner.

> Shall I add this as is or can someone suggest amendments?

Add this and amendments will come. I would like to see this limited to
5 releases to avoid ugly horizontal scrollbar. If it doesn't allow
that - we can probably modify this gadget. We may want to modify it
anyway to be more pythonic.
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Jul  1 23:50:27 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:50:27 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Embedding the Google Python Release Schedule
 calendar
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilzf4eKnWXGst49sOQhZAOBLUC_E7xaBy5etp46@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100625165455.0a21b43b@heresy>	<4C2C9E50.3050706@python.org>
	<AANLkTilzf4eKnWXGst49sOQhZAOBLUC_E7xaBy5etp46@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2D0DA3.5050106@python.org>

On 01/07/2010 20:02, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> [snip...]
>> Shall I add this as is or can someone suggest amendments?
>>      
> Add this and amendments will come. I would like to see this limited to
> 5 releases to avoid ugly horizontal scrollbar. If it doesn't allow
> that - we can probably modify this gadget. We may want to modify it
> anyway to be more pythonic.
>    
I've added it but it won't show up until a full re-build of the site is 
done. We can certainly work on it to make it look cleaner though. The 
colour scheme is ok, but not *quite* right for the site. From the google 
calendar wizard I couldn't see how to change the foreground blue.

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From steve at holdenweb.com  Fri Jul  2 13:40:32 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 07:40:32 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [Fwd: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender]
In-Reply-To: <20100702113006.GJ32131@charite.de>
References: <4C2D18B2.6070609@holdenweb.com>
	<20100702074241.GC32131@charite.de>
	<4C2DC2A2.7060604@holdenweb.com>
	<20100702113006.GJ32131@charite.de>
Message-ID: <4C2DD030.9030501@holdenweb.com>

Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:
> * Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com>:
>  
>> Anything I (or, more likely, other pydotorgers) can do to help?
> 
> If you can, you could login and reinstall replybot for python-2.6

I'm afraid I don't exercise login privileges. This request should go to
pydotorg-www, I think. So I am copying the list on this mail.

If anyone know how to bring the replybot up to date our postmasters
would really appreciate it.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010    http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!       http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/

From techtonik at gmail.com  Sun Jul  4 22:41:12 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 23:41:12 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: [PythonInfo Wiki] Update of "tftp" by
	79.132.252.94
In-Reply-To: <20100704125535.5244.97068@ximinez.python.org>
References: <20100704125535.5244.97068@ximinez.python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinznaL3sXQS-QLUTsjX3z2jZ1uFyreBRpdwupoq@mail.gmail.com>

Are mail archives broken or were reindexed? I see that old reference
is now dead and I doubt somebody typed the old page name by hand to
make a mistake.
-- 
anatoly t.




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: python.org wiki <wiki at python.org>
Date: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Subject: [PythonInfo Wiki] Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94
To: "python.org wiki" <wiki at python.org>


Dear Wiki user,

You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "PythonInfo
Wiki" for change notification.

The "tftp" page has been changed by 79.132.252.94:
http://wiki.python.org/moin/tftp?action=diff&rev1=6&rev2=7

?TFTP is an extremely simple (some would say trivial) file transfer
protocol. ?This simplicity is achieved by only having 6 message types
and only allowing a single message to be in flight at a given time.
TFTP is often used in embedded environments where simplicity of
implementation is more important than attempting to achieve high
throughput. ?TFTP is often layered over UDP, though this is not
necessary.

?References to Python-related tftp servers:
- ?* [[http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-January/024980.html]]
+ ?* [[http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2001-January/700229.html]]
? * [[http://tftpy.sourceforge.net/|TFTPy]] is a pure python TFTP
client and server implementation under development.

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Jul  4 23:56:03 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 23:56:03 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: [PythonInfo Wiki] Update of "tftp" by
	79.132.252.94
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinznaL3sXQS-QLUTsjX3z2jZ1uFyreBRpdwupoq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100704125535.5244.97068@ximinez.python.org>
	<AANLkTinznaL3sXQS-QLUTsjX3z2jZ1uFyreBRpdwupoq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201007042356.03386.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 04 July 2010 22:41:12 anatoly techtonik wrote:
> Are mail archives broken or were reindexed? I see that old reference
> is now dead and I doubt somebody typed the old page name by hand to
> make a mistake.

At some point the archives were regenerated and the identifiers in the URLs 
changed. Take a look at the January archives for python-dev to see some 
side-effects:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-January/date.html

Here's a thread discussing the problem (or perhaps a related problem):

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-January/097388.html

Paul

From techtonik at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 09:07:05 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 10:07:05 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki] Update
	of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
Message-ID: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>

That's unacceptable. Why there is no "critical issue" about that?
Where PSF is looking into? We've broken all web links from manually
collected Python knowledge about 6 months ago and nobody cares.

I think PSF is able to organize a dedicated sprint if its not too late
to recover links provided that somebody is able describe the problem
with Pipermail in sufficient details, so that people with no
background can pickup and see what can be done.


There is also closed `python-dev` archive on Google. Perhaps if PSF
can figure out who is the owner of this archive (and if there is any
content at all)  - some linking information still can be recovered.
-- 
anatoly t.



On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
> On Sunday 04 July 2010 22:41:12 anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> Are mail archives broken or were reindexed? I see that old reference
>> is now dead and I doubt somebody typed the old page name by hand to
>> make a mistake.
>
> At some point the archives were regenerated and the identifiers in the URLs
> changed. Take a look at the January archives for python-dev to see some
> side-effects:
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-January/date.html
>
> Here's a thread discussing the problem (or perhaps a related problem):
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2010-January/097388.html
>
> Paul
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From mfoord at python.org  Mon Jul  5 22:17:34 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:17:34 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
Message-ID: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>

Hello all,

It would be good to have some prominent information to users on the 
python.org website as to whether they should be using Python 2 or Python 3.

We now have a wiki page which is a very good start on providing this 
information:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3

I would like to add an extra link to the sidebar, to this page of 
course, or perhaps just on the front page. Thoughts?

(If you think the wiki page could be improved then just go ahead and 
improve it - I am asking specifically about linking to it.)

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.	



From techtonik at gmail.com  Mon Jul  5 23:02:14 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 00:02:14 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinkkm2wvdjQTCaLJ3rTt9SDH7CjsdffGDsrh5-Z@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I don't remember who said this on IRC, but the whole content can be
replaced with "Use Python 3 if you can, and Python 2 if you must".

-- 
anatoly t.



On Mon, Jul 5, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> It would be good to have some prominent information to users on the
> python.org website as to whether they should be using Python 2 or Python 3.
>
> We now have a wiki page which is a very good start on providing this
> information:
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3
>
> I would like to add an extra link to the sidebar, to this page of course, or
> perhaps just on the front page. Thoughts?
>
> (If you think the wiki page could be improved then just go ahead and improve
> it - I am asking specifically about linking to it.)
>
> Michael
>
> --
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of
> your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
> any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
> shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
> non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have
> entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
> assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
> privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me
> from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Mon Jul  5 23:17:10 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2010 23:17:10 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinkkm2wvdjQTCaLJ3rTt9SDH7CjsdffGDsrh5-Z@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
	<AANLkTinkkm2wvdjQTCaLJ3rTt9SDH7CjsdffGDsrh5-Z@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201007052317.10996.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Monday 05 July 2010 23:02:14 anatoly techtonik wrote:
>
> I don't remember who said this on IRC, but the whole content can be
> replaced with "Use Python 3 if you can, and Python 2 if you must".

You haven't been following all the right discussions. ;-) In fact, the 
document originated from the advice previously given to IRC participants on 
the #python channel and was generously donated by the people who wrote the 
original and who improved it according to discussion on some mailing list or 
other. Since then, I see that it has had a few edits by others, too.

It does occur to me that the discussion may have been on a closed list, but 
various "big names of Python" did sign off on the cautious message about 
Python 3. I think that's a sign of progress in itself: people who have 
advocated the continued usage of Python 2.x are no longer regarded as people 
getting in the way; their motivations have been recognised in full.

That's what that document is all about: getting into the detail rather than 
giving advice at the lifestyle level.

Paul

P.S. If someone could restore/add a link to the Wiki from the front page, that 
would be great, too. It could go next to the languages link.

From mfoord at python.org  Mon Jul  5 23:17:48 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:17:48 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <201007052317.10996.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>	<AANLkTinkkm2wvdjQTCaLJ3rTt9SDH7CjsdffGDsrh5-Z@mail.gmail.com>
	<201007052317.10996.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4C324BFC.1010504@python.org>

On 05/07/2010 22:17, Paul Boddie wrote:
> [snip...]
> P.S. If someone could restore/add a link to the Wiki from the front page, that
> would be great, too. It could go next to the languages link.
>    

I can do this too, but at the moment I am unable to make changes to the 
main template and have them take effect.

Michael

> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From barry at python.org  Tue Jul  6 16:39:36 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:39:36 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki]
 Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>

CC'ing Postmasters because really, this is something they at least need to be
aware of, and they are in the best position to help with.  Remember, they are
dedicated and busy volunteers who keep critical python.org infrastructure
humming away mostly care free.

On Jul 05, 2010, at 10:07 AM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

>That's unacceptable. Why there is no "critical issue" about that?
>Where PSF is looking into? We've broken all web links from manually
>collected Python knowledge about 6 months ago and nobody cares.
>
>I think PSF is able to organize a dedicated sprint if its not too late
>to recover links provided that somebody is able describe the problem
>with Pipermail in sufficient details, so that people with no
>background can pickup and see what can be done.
>
>There is also closed `python-dev` archive on Google. Perhaps if PSF
>can figure out who is the owner of this archive (and if there is any
>content at all)  - some linking information still can be recovered.

Here's the issue.

Pipermail has never maintained a database between message-ids and the urls.
This is true even before Pipermail was bolted into Mailman and that's never
changed, despite being high on my wish list for a decade.  In any case, the
problem occurs because Pipermail messages are numbered sequentially, and there
is a difference between generating the archive on the fly (i.e. as messages
arrive) and as a regenerated whole.  This is complicated by the fact that
there was a bug in Mailman years ago that broke the mbox separator so that
regens couldn't be done reproducibly.   This is why Mailman has a cleanarch
script.

The best way to regenerate a clean archive is to take the mbox file, run
cleanarch over it, then run 'arch --wipe'.  The urls will probably be broken,
so if the original urls can be retrieved then I think the easiest way to "fix"
them is to write some alias rules for Apache to do permanent redirects to the
new urls.  This is not a trivial amount of work, which is probably why it
hasn't been done yet.  Who wants to - and can - volunteer to see this through
to the end?

On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If you're
interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.

-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100706/fdff80fe/attachment.pgp>

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Jul  6 17:04:56 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:04:56 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
Message-ID: <20100706150456.GA3899@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:39:36AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If you're
> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.

Coincidentally, LWN has a similar item today:
http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/394660/a94a29378609d81a/

	In 2005, the Debian project voted to declassify messages on
	the debian-private mailing list after a period of three
	years. That is easier said than done, apparently. The General
	Resolution (GR) calls for volunteers to do the work of
	declassification, and few Debian Developers seem eager to do
	the work required to make it happen.

They can't find volunteers either, because tidying historical data is
much less useful than forward-looking tasks.

--amk

From amk at amk.ca  Tue Jul  6 17:23:06 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:23:06 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100706152306.GA4228@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 09:17:34PM +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3
> I would like to add an extra link to the sidebar, to this page of
> course, or perhaps just on the front page. Thoughts?

I think it should go on the top-level download page at
http://www.python.org/download/, which is where people are most
directly confronted with the need to make a choice.

Arguably it could also go on the 2.7 and 3.1 release pages, with text
like "Choosing between Python 2.x and 3.x".  But I wonder if that will
confuse users; will they worry that they're making a wrong choice
because of the presence of the link?  "Clearly the authors of
python.org are trying to warn me against downloading this version!"

--amk

From mfoord at python.org  Tue Jul  6 19:16:01 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 18:16:01 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <20100706152306.GA4228@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>
	<20100706152306.GA4228@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <4C3364D1.20107@python.org>

On 06/07/2010 16:23, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 09:17:34PM +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3
>> I would like to add an extra link to the sidebar, to this page of
>> course, or perhaps just on the front page. Thoughts?
>>      
> I think it should go on the top-level download page at
> http://www.python.org/download/, which is where people are most
> directly confronted with the need to make a choice.
>
>    

Whilst that is definitely a sensible place to have it I have heard of 
people coming to python.org for this kind of information and not being 
able to find it. I'm not sure that the download page is where you would 
necessarily go for it.

Maybe on the "About" page too? Also what about as one of the options in 
the "DOCUMENTATION" sidebar?

Michael

> Arguably it could also go on the 2.7 and 3.1 release pages, with text
> like "Choosing between Python 2.x and 3.x".  But I wonder if that will
> confuse users; will they worry that they're making a wrong choice
> because of the presence of the link?  "Clearly the authors of
> python.org are trying to warn me against downloading this version!"
>
> --amk
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 19:20:14 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 20:20:14 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki]
	Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:
>
> Here's the issue.
>
> Pipermail has never maintained a database between message-ids and the urls.
> This is true even before Pipermail was bolted into Mailman and that's never
> changed, despite being high on my wish list for a decade. ?In any case, the
> problem occurs because Pipermail messages are numbered sequentially, and there
> is a difference between generating the archive on the fly (i.e. as messages
> arrive) and as a regenerated whole. ?This is complicated by the fact that
> there was a bug in Mailman years ago that broke the mbox separator so that
> regens couldn't be done reproducibly. ? This is why Mailman has a cleanarch
> script.

So, the bug is fixed, but archives still need to be repaired with
`cleanarch` script.
1. Is that right?
2. If the bug is fixed - how come that Python archives become corrupted?
3. If they were not corrupted - why they were regenerated?

> The best way to regenerate a clean archive is to take the mbox file, run
> cleanarch over it, then run 'arch --wipe'. ?The urls will probably be broken,
> so if the original urls can be retrieved then I think the easiest way to "fix"
> them is to write some alias rules for Apache to do permanent redirects to the
> new urls. ?This is not a trivial amount of work, which is probably why it
> hasn't been done yet. ?Who wants to - and can - volunteer to see this through
> to the end?

We need to clearly define the problem first.

Given:
- mbox file - some kind or binary file with messages inside
- archive site served by Apache with some content
    1. What is this site?
    2. How .html files are generated (statically/dynamically)?
    3. What are linking rules?
    4. What are name generating formulas?
- de-facto information loss - symptoms - broken URL links, broken thread chains

Need to find out:
- source of information loss
- if the recovery is possible
- recovery scenarios

Finally:
- implement recovery scenario
- run implementation

> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
> Pipermail for at least a decade. ?No one's stepped forward so far. ?If you're
> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.

It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
transformation scenario.

-- 
anatoly t.

From steve at holdenweb.com  Tue Jul  6 19:51:25 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:51:25 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo
 Wiki]	Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:
>> Here's the issue.
>>
>> Pipermail has never maintained a database between message-ids and the urls.
>> This is true even before Pipermail was bolted into Mailman and that's never
>> changed, despite being high on my wish list for a decade.  In any case, the
>> problem occurs because Pipermail messages are numbered sequentially, and there
>> is a difference between generating the archive on the fly (i.e. as messages
>> arrive) and as a regenerated whole.  This is complicated by the fact that
>> there was a bug in Mailman years ago that broke the mbox separator so that
>> regens couldn't be done reproducibly.   This is why Mailman has a cleanarch
>> script.
> 
> So, the bug is fixed, but archives still need to be repaired with
> `cleanarch` script.
> 1. Is that right?
> 2. If the bug is fixed - how come that Python archives become corrupted?
> 3. If they were not corrupted - why they were regenerated?
> 
>> The best way to regenerate a clean archive is to take the mbox file, run
>> cleanarch over it, then run 'arch --wipe'.  The urls will probably be broken,
>> so if the original urls can be retrieved then I think the easiest way to "fix"
>> them is to write some alias rules for Apache to do permanent redirects to the
>> new urls.  This is not a trivial amount of work, which is probably why it
>> hasn't been done yet.  Who wants to - and can - volunteer to see this through
>> to the end?
> 
> We need to clearly define the problem first.
> 
> Given:
> - mbox file - some kind or binary file with messages inside
> - archive site served by Apache with some content
>     1. What is this site?
>     2. How .html files are generated (statically/dynamically)?
>     3. What are linking rules?
>     4. What are name generating formulas?
> - de-facto information loss - symptoms - broken URL links, broken thread chains
> 
> Need to find out:
> - source of information loss
> - if the recovery is possible
> - recovery scenarios
> 
> Finally:
> - implement recovery scenario
> - run implementation
> 
>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
>> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If you're
>> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
> 
> It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
> can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
> transformation scenario.
> 
Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term "volunteer".

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010    http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!       http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/

From mfoord at python.org  Tue Jul  6 20:16:30 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 19:16:30 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4C3372FE.9050005@python.org>

On 06/07/2010 18:51, Steve Holden wrote:
> [snip..]
>>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
>>> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If you're
>>> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
>>>        
>> It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
>> can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
>> transformation scenario.
>>
>>      
> Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term "volunteer".
>
>    

That is clear beyond doubt...

Michael

> regards
>   Steve
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From barry at python.org  Tue Jul  6 21:06:28 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:06:28 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki]
 Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100706150628.3ed80ae2@heresy>

On Jul 06, 2010, at 08:20 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

>So, the bug is fixed, but archives still need to be repaired with
>`cleanarch` script.
>1. Is that right?

Yes.

>2. If the bug is fixed - how come that Python archives become
>corrupted? 3. If they were not corrupted - why they were regenerated?

Pipermail processes message one-at-a-time for on-the-fly archive updates.
These were never affected.  Mailman concatenates the messages into an mbox
file and the since-fixed bug broke the de-facto mbox standard message
delimiter.  While this was fixed in Mailman, old mbox files could still have
messages separated by the bogus delimiter.  Thus wiping the html archive and
regenerating it from those mbox files could produce incorrect archives.
cleanarch uses heuristics to find those broken delimiters and rewrites a new
mbox file with the fixed delimiters.

>Given:
>- mbox file - some kind or binary file with messages inside
>- archive site served by Apache with some content
>    1. What is this site?
>    2. How .html files are generated (statically/dynamically)?
>    3. What are linking rules?
>    4. What are name generating formulas?
>- de-facto information loss - symptoms - broken URL links, broken
>thread chains
>
>Need to find out:
>- source of information loss
>- if the recovery is possible
>- recovery scenarios
>
>Finally:
>- implement recovery scenario
>- run implementation

I don't really have time to dive into all these details.  Pipermail is free
software and folks on mailman-users or mailman-developers can provide lots of
good help.

-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100706/3cad9825/attachment.pgp>

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Tue Jul  6 21:32:25 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 21:32:25 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki]
	Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
Message-ID: <201007062132.26183.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Tuesday 06 July 2010 16:39:36 Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> Here's the issue.
>
> Pipermail has never maintained a database between message-ids and the urls.
> This is true even before Pipermail was bolted into Mailman and that's never
> changed, despite being high on my wish list for a decade.  In any case, the
> problem occurs because Pipermail messages are numbered sequentially, and
> there is a difference between generating the archive on the fly (i.e. as
> messages arrive) and as a regenerated whole.  This is complicated by the
> fact that there was a bug in Mailman years ago that broke the mbox
> separator so that regens couldn't be done reproducibly.   This is why
> Mailman has a cleanarch script.

Thanks for the summary! I knew it had something to do with that thread I 
referenced, but I didn't really put all the pieces together.

> The best way to regenerate a clean archive is to take the mbox file, run
> cleanarch over it, then run 'arch --wipe'.  The urls will probably be
> broken, so if the original urls can be retrieved then I think the easiest
> way to "fix" them is to write some alias rules for Apache to do permanent
> redirects to the new urls.  This is not a trivial amount of work, which is
> probably why it hasn't been done yet.  Who wants to - and can - volunteer
> to see this through to the end?

Is it not possible to get an old version of Mailman to generate archives which 
presumably have the same traits as those previously generated, record the 
identifier to Message-Id (or other "anchoring" property) correspondence, and 
then relabel the messages in the fixed archives with the old identifiers? Or 
does the whole "as messages arrive" thing completely prevent any possibility 
of reproducing the correct archived message ordering?

> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If
> you're interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.

It sounds like a fun project, and I'm tempted, but I also have a fair amount 
of other stuff to do right now, including writing a talk for EuroPython, 
although this might make for some interesting material for that talk. ;-)

Paul

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Jul  6 19:44:02 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 13:44:02 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Adding a link to 2or3
In-Reply-To: <4C3364D1.20107@python.org>
References: <4C323DDE.4050901@python.org>	<20100706152306.GA4228@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<4C3364D1.20107@python.org>
Message-ID: <4C336B62.8060702@wingware.com>

Michael Foord wrote:
> On 06/07/2010 16:23, A.M. Kuchling wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 09:17:34PM +0100, Michael Foord wrote:
>>   
>>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/Python2orPython3
>>> I would like to add an extra link to the sidebar, to this page of
>>> course, or perhaps just on the front page. Thoughts?
>>>      
>> I think it should go on the top-level download page at
>> http://www.python.org/download/, which is where people are most
>> directly confronted with the need to make a choice.
>>
>>    
>
> Whilst that is definitely a sensible place to have it I have heard of 
> people coming to python.org for this kind of information and not being 
> able to find it. I'm not sure that the download page is where you 
> would necessarily go for it.
>
> Maybe on the "About" page too? Also what about as one of the options 
> in the "DOCUMENTATION" sidebar?

On the home page wouldn't be unreasonable either given the importance of 
this.  It's certainly the single biggest news/event/whatever in recent 
Python history.

- Stephan


From sdeibel at wingware.com  Tue Jul  6 20:00:22 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:00:22 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C336F36.9000409@wingware.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:
>   
>> Here's the issue.
>>
>> Pipermail has never maintained a database between message-ids and the urls.
>> This is true even before Pipermail was bolted into Mailman and that's never
>> changed, despite being high on my wish list for a decade.  In any case, the
>> problem occurs because Pipermail messages are numbered sequentially, and there
>> is a difference between generating the archive on the fly (i.e. as messages
>> arrive) and as a regenerated whole.  This is complicated by the fact that
>> there was a bug in Mailman years ago that broke the mbox separator so that
>> regens couldn't be done reproducibly.   This is why Mailman has a cleanarch
>> script.
>>     
>
> So, the bug is fixed, but archives still need to be repaired with
> `cleanarch` script.
> 1. Is that right?
> 2. If the bug is fixed - how come that Python archives become corrupted?
> 3. If they were not corrupted - why they were regenerated?
>   

Note that for some Python email lists the mbox file contains messages 
for which we received and acted on take down notices.  I'm fairly sure 
we removed the message from the html archive but not from the mbox.  So 
regenerating from those will cause re-posting of those messages.  
Perhaps not a big deal (it's years ago) but thought I'd mention it.

>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart in
>> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If you're
>> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
>>     
>
> It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
> can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
> transformation scenario.
>   

"Volunteer" means doing it for free as a service to the community.  What 
is needed is actual help not attempts to flog or embarrass others into 
doing work that you think is important.  I think many agree it's a 
problem but frankly it's a bit odd that in response to a call for 
volunteers to fix the problem you essentially say "I can help but it'll 
cost you a lot". 

Hopefully I'm just misunderstanding your email.

- Stephan


From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Jul  6 23:55:29 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 00:55:29 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <4C3372FE.9050005@python.org>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com> <4C3372FE.9050005@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> [snip..]
>>>>
>>>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart
>>>> in
>>>> Pipermail for at least a decade. ?No one's stepped forward so far. ?If
>>>> you're
>>>> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
>>> can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
>>> transformation scenario.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term "volunteer".
>>
>>
>
> That is clear beyond doubt...

In Russian words "have" and "own" are the same. Nobody wants to be
pwnd. That's the meaning.
-- 
anatoly t.

From georg at python.org  Wed Jul  7 00:49:11 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 00:49:11 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com>
	<4C3372FE.9050005@python.org>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 06.07.2010 23:55, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip..]
>>>>>
>>>>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this wart
>>>>> in
>>>>> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If
>>>>> you're
>>>>> interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It will be expensive to get me for the whole project. The only thing I
>>>> can promise is to put some effort into this specific data
>>>> transformation scenario.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the term "volunteer".
>>>
>>>
>>
>> That is clear beyond doubt...
> 
> In Russian words "have" and "own" are the same. Nobody wants to be
> pwnd. That's the meaning.

I'm afraid that this explanation doesn't make things any clearer --
for me at least...

Georg
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.15 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkwzsucACgkQN9GcIYhpnLC00QCgleAwUsW0tHQZrfL+i5t1FgGy
cw4AmwTBxaTu4qeGXSUAdPxWOMvPsixS
=KW25
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Wed Jul  7 01:12:52 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 01:12:52 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
Message-ID: <201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Wednesday 07 July 2010 00:49:11 Georg Brandl wrote:
>
> I'm afraid that this explanation doesn't make things any clearer --
> for me at least...

I would guess that what Anatoly is saying is that he doesn't want to be fully 
committed to the Mailman project or something, and that he has to earn a 
living doing other stuff, but then don't we all?

(T-shirt suggestion: Pwned by Python?)

I've noticed that the archive numbering for the problematic python-list 
archives does start at 000000 and 000001 but then skips around to 619310 and 
627807:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-February/date.html

There's a good mixture of various ranges in subsequent months.

I've been looking at the Mailman code and the Mailman.Archiver code in 
particular, although I'm still not sure whether it makes sense to take the 
gzipped archives from mail.python.org and try and process them in some way.

Any suggestions?

Paul

From jeff at taupro.com  Wed Jul  7 03:45:38 2010
From: jeff at taupro.com (Jeff Rush)
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 20:45:38 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>	<AANLkTikejY8aWvarqxjuIQUi3oCdomJ9NJzedonP8Wi5@mail.gmail.com>	<4C336D1D.1050402@holdenweb.com>	<4C3372FE.9050005@python.org>	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
Message-ID: <4C33DC42.8020006@taupro.com>

On 07/06/2010 05:49 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
> Am 06.07.2010 23:55, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward so far.  If
>>>>>> you're interested in helping, the Mailman project would love to have you.
> 
>> In Russian words "have" and "own" are the same. Nobody wants to be
>> pwnd. That's the meaning.
> 
> I'm afraid that this explanation doesn't make things any clearer --
> for me at least...

Georg, the "have" is referring to the word used by Michael, as in:

"If you're interesting in helping, the Mailman project would love to
-own- you."

with a (perfectly natural) reaction of, "hey, I'm willing to contribute
but -not- to take on this big task all by myself!"

Basically its much ado about nothing, a language misunderstanding by
all.  Let's move on.

-Jeff

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Jul  7 11:16:21 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:16:21 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 2:12 AM, Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk> wrote:
>
> (T-shirt suggestion: Pwned by Python?)

(Pthnd)

> I've noticed that the archive numbering for the problematic python-list
> archives does start at 000000 and 000001 but then skips around to 619310 and
> 627807:
>
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/1999-February/date.html
>
> There's a good mixture of various ranges in subsequent months.
>
> I've been looking at the Mailman code and the Mailman.Archiver code in
> particular, although I'm still not sure whether it makes sense to take the
> gzipped archives from mail.python.org and try and process them in some way.
>
> Any suggestions?

Before anything else: Is Pipermail a separate project from Mailman?
Where to read about it? Search does nothing.

If I understand correctly, the messages in mbox are stored in the
order they were received. What about URL generation? Logically I would
make site generator that reads one message at a time and assigns
message number sequentially according to message order. Then it should
analyze timestamp and thread linking attributes to understand where to
put the messages. As it probably can not generate html incrementally
(like inserting message that arrived later into the middle of thread
html page) - it need to build some indexes.


So some possible cases to test:
1. mbox somehow got sorted in different order
  [ ] get some mbox'es from backups and compare them
2. message counter overflow happened while building indexes
  [ ] check serialization/deserialization logic for message counter
  [ ] grep places where it is used
3. index limit overflow
  [ ] check limits for max messages per
        month/year/thread/mbox/ ... / anything else?


We need to research algorithm how site generator builds indexes, sorts
messages before processing and constructs indexes. But first there
must be a sanity check that mbox files are intact.


How can I quickstart with toolchain for converting archive?
Can anybody send some initial data - mbox, point to generated site,
the exact versions of installed toolchain and ensure me that 'diff'
with actual downloaded versions of this toolchain is empty?

-- 
anatoly t.

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Wed Jul  7 10:01:59 2010
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 10:01:59 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100707080159.GF26491@charite.de>

* Paul Boddie <paul at boddie.org.uk>:
> On Wednesday 07 July 2010 00:49:11 Georg Brandl wrote:
> >
> > I'm afraid that this explanation doesn't make things any clearer --
> > for me at least...
> 
> I would guess that what Anatoly is saying is that he doesn't want to be fully 
> committed to the Mailman project or something, and that he has to earn a 
> living doing other stuff, but then don't we all?
> 
> (T-shirt suggestion: Pwned by Python?)

It could be misunderstood :)

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt
  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
  Campus Benjamin Franklin
  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
  ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de
	    

From barry at python.org  Wed Jul  7 15:36:20 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:36:20 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100707093620.088f24f7@heresy>

On Jul 07, 2010, at 01:12 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>I've been looking at the Mailman code and the Mailman.Archiver code in 
>particular, although I'm still not sure whether it makes sense to take
>the gzipped archives from mail.python.org and try and process them in
>some way.

Probably not by itself, since the message-ids are not embedded in the html.  I
think you'll want a tar of the private archives directory, so that you can
unpack the various pickles to try to work out which message-ids are assigned
to which sequence numbers.  The problem with that of course is that with a
regenerated archive, those mappings won't be correct any more.

Maybe if we knew when the regen occurred, we could get some backups and try to
reverse engineer those mappings.

yeah-it-sucks-ly y'rs,
-Barry

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100707/a260568c/attachment.pgp>

From barry at python.org  Wed Jul  7 15:44:07 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:44:07 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100707094407.4bc84fbc@heresy>

On Jul 07, 2010, at 12:16 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:

>Before anything else: Is Pipermail a separate project from Mailman?

It used to be, but it was pulled into Mailman and bolted on sometime before
the 1.0 release.  It ceased being a separate project at that time.

>Where to read about it? Search does nothing.

UTSL.

>If I understand correctly, the messages in mbox are stored in the
>order they were received.

Correct.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mbox

>What about URL generation? Logically I would
>make site generator that reads one message at a time and assigns
>message number sequentially according to message order. Then it should
>analyze timestamp and thread linking attributes to understand where to
>put the messages. As it probably can not generate html incrementally
>(like inserting message that arrived later into the middle of thread
>html page) - it need to build some indexes.

These are stored on disk as pickles.

>So some possible cases to test:
>1. mbox somehow got sorted in different order
>  [ ] get some mbox'es from backups and compare them
>2. message counter overflow happened while building indexes
>  [ ] check serialization/deserialization logic for message counter
>  [ ] grep places where it is used
>3. index limit overflow
>  [ ] check limits for max messages per
>        month/year/thread/mbox/ ... / anything else?
>
>
>We need to research algorithm how site generator builds indexes, sorts
>messages before processing and constructs indexes. But first there
>must be a sanity check that mbox files are intact.

I don't think we modified the mbox files, perhaps other than to cleanarch
them.  At least I don't remember doing anything like that.  Theoretically, if
the message sequences in the mbox file were identical to the on-the-fly
generation of the html, then the sequence numbers should be the same too.  The
problem is that cleanarch relies on heuristics which can sometimes be
incorrect.  I'm also not sure whether cleanarch was run on the mbox file
before the regen occurred.

>How can I quickstart with toolchain for converting archive?
>Can anybody send some initial data - mbox, point to generated site,
>the exact versions of installed toolchain and ensure me that 'diff'
>with actual downloaded versions of this toolchain is empty?

We could make a tar of the entire private archive directory, which probably
includes all the raw data you need.  If anybody objects to making this
available to anatoly, please let me know.

-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100707/862c368c/attachment.pgp>

From amk at amk.ca  Wed Jul  7 15:54:36 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:54:36 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <20100707093620.088f24f7@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<20100707093620.088f24f7@heresy>
Message-ID: <20100707135436.GA4062@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 09:36:20AM -0400, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Probably not by itself, since the message-ids are not embedded in the html.  I
> think you'll want a tar of the private archives directory, so that you can
> unpack the various pickles to try to work out which message-ids are assigned
> to which sequence numbers.  The problem with that of course is that with a
> regenerated archive, those mappings won't be correct any more.

Note that the internal threading IDs *are* embedded in the HTML for
thread indexes:

    <!--0 01277935270- -->
    <LI><A HREF="101252.html">[Python-Dev] OS X buildbots: why am I skipping these tests?
    </A><A NAME="101252">&nbsp;</A>
    <I>&quot;Martin v. L&#246;wis&quot;
    </I>

    <UL>
    <!--1 01277935270-01277935581- -->
    <LI><A HREF="101253.html">[Python-Dev] OS X buildbots: why am I skipping these tests?
    </A><A NAME="101253">&nbsp;</A>
    <I>Brett Cannon
    </I>

When quoting e-mails, Linux Weekly News includes the entire e-mail in
their CMS.  Maybe something similar could be done for PEPs, providing
a way to store and attach the entire e-mail giving a decision.

--amk

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jul  7 17:24:00 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 08:24:00 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <20100707094407.4bc84fbc@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100707094407.4bc84fbc@heresy>
Message-ID: <20100707152400.GA22188@panix.com>

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 07, 2010, at 12:16 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> 
>>Where to read about it? Search does nothing.
> 
> UTSL.

Just for the record because I'm unfond of obscure acronyms in serious
responses: "Use The Source, Luke"

Now, if *that* isn't familiar, JFGI.  ;-)
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not
start writing it."  --Dijkstra

From mfoord at python.org  Wed Jul  7 17:28:30 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:28:30 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <20100707152400.GA22188@panix.com>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com>	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org>	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>	<AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com>	<20100707094407.4bc84fbc@heresy>
	<20100707152400.GA22188@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4C349D1E.3060908@python.org>

On 07/07/2010 16:24, Aahz wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 07, 2010, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>    
>> On Jul 07, 2010, at 12:16 PM, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>      
>>> Where to read about it? Search does nothing.
>>>        
>> UTSL.
>>      
> Just for the record because I'm unfond of obscure acronyms in serious
> responses: "Use The Source, Luke"
>
> Now, if *that* isn't familiar, JFGI.  ;-)
>    
"Just ForGet it"?

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From dirkjan at ochtman.nl  Wed Jul  7 17:39:04 2010
From: dirkjan at ochtman.nl (Dirkjan Ochtman)
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 17:39:04 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <4C349D1E.3060908@python.org>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikKBGjsVZ9Rcjt6m2RdKNZ4bSy4e9uvobdrT_u3@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C33B2E7.3060607@python.org> <201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk> 
	<AANLkTilFjZrDA1Hdprj-p_elAH1wvNysAsq3aMbgE7yY@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100707094407.4bc84fbc@heresy> <20100707152400.GA22188@panix.com> 
	<4C349D1E.3060908@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimnkg9tbjAIYtjgBkXzxa1Qb9KLK1gH8cKHkdPp@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 17:28, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> "Just ForGet it"?

Just F*cking Google It.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Jul  8 01:07:15 2010
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 01:07:15 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption
In-Reply-To: <20100707093620.088f24f7@heresy>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<201007070112.52298.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<20100707093620.088f24f7@heresy>
Message-ID: <201007080107.15135.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Wednesday 07 July 2010 15:36:20 Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 07, 2010, at 01:12 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> >I've been looking at the Mailman code and the Mailman.Archiver code in
> >particular, although I'm still not sure whether it makes sense to take
> >the gzipped archives from mail.python.org and try and process them in
> >some way.
>
> Probably not by itself, since the message-ids are not embedded in the html.

I was thinking of the gzipped archives linked to from the "list archives" 
page, which gives plain text mailbox files (the "Downloadable version"):

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/

But I think you're ahead of me here...

>  I think you'll want a tar of the private archives directory, so that you
> can unpack the various pickles to try to work out which message-ids are
> assigned to which sequence numbers.  The problem with that of course is
> that with a regenerated archive, those mappings won't be correct any more.

I was sort of hoping that just getting the mailbox archives and running 
pipermail (in some form) over them would give HTML archives with correct 
sequence numbers, given a suitable starting value, but I guess the various 
guarantees to make this feasible are just absent. For example, the ordering 
of the messages in the mailbox files could be different from the original 
processing order, and there may have been some HTML archiving of older 
messages after newer ones, and so on.

So, yes, it may be necessary to reverse engineer the correspondence between 
Message-Id (or something) and sequence number, as you say...

> Maybe if we knew when the regen occurred, we could get some backups and try
> to reverse engineer those mappings.

The problem was first noticed in January 2010, I think.

Paul

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Fri Jul  9 22:31:40 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:31:40 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
Message-ID: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>

Forwarding as attachment to preserve screenshots
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Alford, Seth" <Seth_Alford at adp.com>
Subject: the google calendar obscures some content
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 13:11:51 -0700
Size: 210398
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100709/0a92ed1e/attachment-0001.mht>

From mfoord at python.org  Fri Jul  9 23:11:18 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:11:18 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4C379076.90304@python.org>

On 09/07/2010 21:31, Aahz wrote:
> Forwarding as attachment to preserve screenshots
>    

Attachment lost in reply - but I will look at this. Either the sidebar 
needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.

Michael

>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies ("BOGUS AGREEMENTS") that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100709/b00e2a24/attachment.html>

From fdrake at acm.org  Fri Jul  9 23:17:38 2010
From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred Drake)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 17:17:38 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <4C379076.90304@python.org>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> Either the sidebar needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.

Is there an API that can be used to obtain the calendar data
ourselves, and perform our own rendering?

There's really a lot of excess width to the canned widget, and it
makes it stand out as an external component.


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.    <fdrake at gmail.com>
"A storm broke loose in my mind."  --Albert Einstein

From webmaster at python.org  Fri Jul  9 23:23:26 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:23:26 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org>
	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C37934E.8000908@python.org>

On 09/07/2010 22:17, Fred Drake wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>    
>> Either the sidebar needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.
>>      
> Is there an API that can be used to obtain the calendar data
> ourselves, and perform our own rendering?
>    

Possibly, but someone would have to actually *do that*.

> There's really a lot of excess width to the canned widget, and it
> makes it stand out as an external component.
>    

It doesn't stick out beyond the sidebar in safari or Firefox on OS X 
(i.e. I don't see the same problem). The only "extra width" is the 
scrollbar, which is part of the functionality. Neither do I see the 
problem in Chrome nor Opera on Mac OS X.

Hmmm...

Michael


>
>    -Fred
>
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From mfoord at python.org  Fri Jul  9 23:32:54 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:32:54 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <4C37934E.8000908@python.org>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>
	<4C379076.90304@python.org>	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org>
Message-ID: <4C379586.2020302@python.org>

On 09/07/2010 22:23, webmaster at python.org wrote:
> On 09/07/2010 22:17, Fred Drake wrote:
>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>>> Either the sidebar needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.
>> [snip...]
> It doesn't stick out beyond the sidebar in safari or Firefox on OS X 
> (i.e. I don't see the same problem). The only "extra width" is the 
> scrollbar, which is part of the functionality. Neither do I see the 
> problem in Chrome nor Opera on Mac OS X.
>

It doesn't happen on IE or Firefox on Windows 7 either (at least not 
with a fairly default system). Fred Drake can't reproduce it with Chrome 
or Firefox on Linux, but then there about a kabillion different versions 
/ configurations of Linux.

Fred Drake says it would look better without the blue border. I agree, 
but the border is actually part of the background and it would look very 
aneamic with a white background. Volunteers welcomed on the restyling 
front... :-)

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From fdrake at acm.org  Fri Jul  9 23:38:09 2010
From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred Drake)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 17:38:09 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org> 
	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org> <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8rTAAyjZaKML_BLtb3T9sD5oHwMCYW4QZB_qh@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> Fred Drake says it would look better without the blue border. I agree, but
> the border is actually part of the background and it would look very aneamic
> with a white background. Volunteers welcomed on the restyling front... :-)

If we could reduce the border width to 0px, I wouldn't care what color
it was, and I'd like it better.  :-)


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.    <fdrake at gmail.com>
"A storm broke loose in my mind."  --Albert Einstein

From mfoord at python.org  Fri Jul  9 23:39:02 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:39:02 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8rTAAyjZaKML_BLtb3T9sD5oHwMCYW4QZB_qh@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org>
	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org> <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
	<AANLkTim8rTAAyjZaKML_BLtb3T9sD5oHwMCYW4QZB_qh@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C3796F6.2030309@python.org>

On 09/07/2010 22:38, Fred Drake wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>    
>> Fred Drake says it would look better without the blue border. I agree, but
>> the border is actually part of the background and it would look very aneamic
>> with a white background. Volunteers welcomed on the restyling front... :-)
>>      
> If we could reduce the border width to 0px, I wouldn't care what color
> it was, and I'd like it better.  :-)
>
>
>    
I'm sure *we* could. :-)

Michael

>    -Fred
>
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From fdrake at acm.org  Fri Jul  9 23:45:21 2010
From: fdrake at acm.org (Fred Drake)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 17:45:21 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <4C3796F6.2030309@python.org>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org> 
	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org> <4C379586.2020302@python.org> 
	<AANLkTim8rTAAyjZaKML_BLtb3T9sD5oHwMCYW4QZB_qh@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4C3796F6.2030309@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilfab0c-pVZuVdmwxLYCHLJi4kNnLdFdoeRu_K7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> I'm sure *we* could. :-)

Yeah, yeah... I'm not expecting anyone to go out and do this who isn't
me.  And it's not near the top of my stack either.


  -Fred

-- 
Fred L. Drake, Jr.    <fdrake at gmail.com>
"A storm broke loose in my mind."  --Albert Einstein

From info at timparkin.co.uk  Fri Jul  9 23:34:58 2010
From: info at timparkin.co.uk (Tim Parkin)
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2010 22:34:58 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com> <4C379076.90304@python.org>
	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C379602.6050608@timparkin.co.uk>

On 09/07/10 22:17, Fred Drake wrote:
> Is there an API that can be used to obtain the calendar data
> ourselves, and perform our own rendering?
>   
http://code.google.com/apis/calendar/data/1.0/developers_guide_python.html#RetrievingCalendars

From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Sat Jul 10 03:27:08 2010
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:27:08 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Reviving community lists page
Message-ID: <4C37CC6C.7040808@voidspace.org.uk>

Hello all,

There is a useful page on newsgroups and mailing lists:

http://www.python.org/community/lists/

This is no longer in the repository and is slightly out of date. For 
mailing lists the page more usually linked to is:

http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

I think the first page is much more useful, especially for pointing 
beginners to. Unless there are objections I'm checking in an updated 
version of the community/lists page into the repository and changing a 
few links to point to it.

I'm also adding a link back to the wiki and a link to the "Python 2 or 
3" page to the template.

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Jul 10 03:38:00 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2010 18:38:00 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Reviving community lists page
In-Reply-To: <4C37CC6C.7040808@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <4C37CC6C.7040808@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100710013759.GA27968@panix.com>

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>
> http://www.python.org/community/lists/
>
> I think the first page is much more useful, especially for pointing  
> beginners to. Unless there are objections I'm checking in an updated  
> version of the community/lists page into the repository and changing a  
> few links to point to it.

Yes, please!  I've had it on my to-do list for some time now but haven't
managed to wrangle enough tuits.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From mfoord at python.org  Sat Jul 10 03:53:26 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 02:53:26 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Reviving community lists page
In-Reply-To: <20100710013759.GA27968@panix.com>
References: <4C37CC6C.7040808@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20100710013759.GA27968@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4C37D296.2070705@python.org>

On 10/07/2010 02:38, Aahz wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>    
>> http://www.python.org/community/lists/
>>
>> I think the first page is much more useful, especially for pointing
>> beginners to. Unless there are objections I'm checking in an updated
>> version of the community/lists page into the repository and changing a
>> few links to point to it.
>>      
> Yes, please!  I've had it on my to-do list for some time now but haven't
> managed to wrangle enough tuits.
>    
Done. Feel free to tweak of course.

The template changes are committed to. I need to rebuild the site on 
dinsdale which I assume is the same as for a local rebuild. i.e. from 
the build directory:

make clean
make new

All the best,

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From martin at martinthomas.net  Sat Jul 10 15:35:20 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 08:35:20 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>
	<4C379076.90304@python.org>	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org> <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
Message-ID: <E95411C7-27C0-4B30-93A0-CAC0570B8EFC@martinthomas.net>


On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:32 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

> On 09/07/2010 22:23, webmaster at python.org wrote:
>> On 09/07/2010 22:17, Fred Drake wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>>>> Either the sidebar needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.
>>> [snip...]
>> It doesn't stick out beyond the sidebar in safari or Firefox on OS X (i.e. I don't see the same problem). The only "extra width" is the scrollbar, which is part of the functionality. Neither do I see the problem in Chrome nor Opera on Mac OS X.
>> 
> 
> It doesn't happen on IE or Firefox on Windows 7 either (at least not with a fairly default system). Fred Drake can't reproduce it with Chrome or Firefox on Linux, but then there about a kabillion different versions / configurations of Linux.

It does happen on Firefox 3.5.10 on Windows XP.  
I'll take a look at the API and/or styling options and see if it can be fixed quickly..
//m


> 
> Fred Drake says it would look better without the blue border. I agree, but the border is actually part of the background and it would look very aneamic with a white background. Volunteers welcomed on the restyling front... :-)
> 
> Michael
> 
> -- 
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
> 
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 


From mfoord at python.org  Sat Jul 10 15:45:16 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 14:45:16 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: the google calendar obscures some content
In-Reply-To: <E95411C7-27C0-4B30-93A0-CAC0570B8EFC@martinthomas.net>
References: <20100709203139.GA15116@panix.com>
	<4C379076.90304@python.org>	<AANLkTinF1MLulwgxXyU01ZnnlPB2n-lNepfgASzgZtXc@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C37934E.8000908@python.org> <4C379586.2020302@python.org>
	<E95411C7-27C0-4B30-93A0-CAC0570B8EFC@martinthomas.net>
Message-ID: <4C38796C.4080809@python.org>

On 10/07/2010 14:35, Martin Thomas wrote:
> On Jul 9, 2010, at 4:32 PM, Michael Foord wrote:
>
>    
>> On 09/07/2010 22:23, webmaster at python.org wrote:
>>      
>>> On 09/07/2010 22:17, Fred Drake wrote:
>>>        
>>>> On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>   wrote:
>>>>          
>>>>> Either the sidebar needs to be widened or the calendar shrunk.
>>>>>            
>>>> [snip...]
>>>>          
>>> It doesn't stick out beyond the sidebar in safari or Firefox on OS X (i.e. I don't see the same problem). The only "extra width" is the scrollbar, which is part of the functionality. Neither do I see the problem in Chrome nor Opera on Mac OS X.
>>>
>>>        
>> It doesn't happen on IE or Firefox on Windows 7 either (at least not with a fairly default system). Fred Drake can't reproduce it with Chrome or Firefox on Linux, but then there about a kabillion different versions / configurations of Linux.
>>      
> It does happen on Firefox 3.5.10 on Windows XP.
> I'll take a look at the API and/or styling options and see if it can be fixed quickly..
>    

Thanks Martin.

Michael

> //m
>
>
>    
>> Fred Drake says it would look better without the blue border. I agree, but the border is actually part of the background and it would look very aneamic with a white background. Volunteers welcomed on the restyling front... :-)
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> -- 
>> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>>
>> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>
>>      
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Jul 10 18:29:13 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:29:13 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: "Python Mailing Lists, Newsgroups,
	and Web Forums" page is	outdated
Message-ID: <20100710162912.GA25949@panix.com>

Michael,

I think your update contains most of this, but just in case, I'm
forwarding this message that triggered putting the lists page on my to-do
list:

----- Forwarded message from Victor Stinner <victor.stinner at haypocalc.com> -----

> From: Victor Stinner <victor.stinner at haypocalc.com>
> To: webmaster at python.org
> Subject: "Python Mailing Lists, Newsgroups, and Web Forums" page is outdated
> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:21:06 +0200
> 
> "Python 3.0 Development
> 
> Python 3.0 development is carried out on two mailing lists.
> 
> The python-3000 list focuses on the implementation: proposed code changes, bug 
> ...
> The python-ideas list is for discussing more speculative design ideas."
> 
> Python3 is now developed with python-dev instead of python-3000. But the 
> reference to Python-3000 should stay for the archives.
> 
> --
> 
> Python3 versions are now 3.1 (and 3.2), not 3.0 anymore.
> 
> --
> 
> "gmane.org archive of python-dev" link points to the python 3000 archives.
> 
> "gmane.org archive of python-dev" link points to the python-ideas archives.
> 
> -- 
> Victor Stinner
> http://www.haypocalc.com/

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From narot1 at live.fr  Sat Jul 10 23:47:02 2010
From: narot1 at live.fr (uyg uh)
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:47:02 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] mailing lists
Message-ID: <SNT129-W4B258743DEB22AEB6EF3381B60@phx.gbl>


narot1 at live.fr 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail : un service de messagerie gratuit, fiable et complet
https://signup.live.com/signup.aspx?id=60969
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100710/c15d1122/attachment.html>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sun Jul 11 18:46:41 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 09:46:41 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Reviving community lists page
In-Reply-To: <4C37D296.2070705@python.org>
References: <4C37CC6C.7040808@voidspace.org.uk>
	<20100710013759.GA27968@panix.com> <4C37D296.2070705@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100711164641.GA23320@panix.com>

On Sat, Jul 10, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
> On 10/07/2010 02:38, Aahz wrote:
>> On Sat, Jul 10, 2010, Michael Foord wrote:
>>>    
>>> http://www.python.org/community/lists/
>>>
>>> I think the first page is much more useful, especially for pointing
>>> beginners to. Unless there are objections I'm checking in an updated
>>> version of the community/lists page into the repository and changing a
>>> few links to point to it.
>>>      
>> Yes, please!  I've had it on my to-do list for some time now but haven't
>> managed to wrangle enough tuits.
>    
> Done. Feel free to tweak of course.

And done!  Many thanks for pushing this forward.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From martin at martinthomas.net  Mon Jul 12 18:12:29 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:12:29 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Google calendar overhang
Message-ID: <AANLkTilzLeEtJmuuVA71LC58zdK0tQaEEc3PM0AQGH5T@mail.gmail.com>

I made a small change to the stylesheet making the left border 3em wider..
on my XP machine, the calendar overhang is now gone.  Is anyone else still
seeing problems?

Cheers // Martin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100712/52b25151/attachment.html>

From martin at martinthomas.net  Wed Jul 14 16:37:14 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 09:37:14 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>

I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page (
http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):
- improved the template, hopefully reducing the amount of rework needed on
received postings, including example of list
- added a link for online preview of RST, hopefully reducing etc..
- added mentions of Feedburner and Twitter and a short description of why a
summary would be good.
- moved the donation paragraph up.  Does anyone keep track of donations
received on account of the Job Board?
- tweaked the opening paragraph
- removed the strong text about Word from the template - it was being
included in postings - instead emphasized plain text in preceding paragraph


If anyone has strong objections or suggestions for improvement, please let
me know or jump in.

Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented? It
is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.

Thanks // Martin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100714/8e639475/attachment.html>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed Jul 14 17:35:31 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 08:35:31 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100714153530.GA27943@panix.com>

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010, Martin Thomas wrote:
>
> I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page (
> http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):

Thanks!  I'll take a look when I have some tuits.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jul 14 17:43:46 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:43:46 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:37, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
> I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page
> (http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):

And I made some further improvements.

I note that your changes put more text up-front. This discussed a
while back, and IIRC we agreed that this would have the effect of
fewer people getting to the most important part: the template. It will
be interesting to see what effect these changes have.

> Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented? It
> is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.

Do you mean the numbered list? Item 1 was not properly indented, so it
didn't show up as a true HTML "list item" (it was just a paragraph
with "1." at the beginning; fixed now). Items 2 and up were properly
indented, and showed up as list items. The indentation is just how
browsers format lists.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From martin at martinthomas.net  Wed Jul 14 18:44:03 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 11:44:03 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:37, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net>
> wrote:
> > I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page
> > (http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):
>
> And I made some further improvements.
>
Thanks.

>
> I note that your changes put more text up-front. This discussed a
> while back, and IIRC we agreed that this would have the effect of
> fewer people getting to the most important part: the template. It will
> be interesting to see what effect these changes have.
>

I took advantage of the fact that the template viewed on the webpage is
in a highlighted block. In addition to adding some text, I also trimmed a
little.  I wanted to remove the volunteer paragraph.. do we really need that
on both pages?
Based on the postings recently, people who make it to this page have
little trouble finding the template but needed some help with filling it
in.
Hopefully, the  changes will help there and save some rework.


>
> > Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented?
> It
> > is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.
>
> Do you mean the numbered list? Item 1 was not properly indented, so it
> didn't show up as a true HTML "list item" (it was just a paragraph
> with "1." at the beginning; fixed now). Items 2 and up were properly
> indented, and showed up as list items. The indentation is just how
> browsers format lists.
>

Facepalm. Thanks.
//m


> --
> David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100714/a0c70cb2/attachment.html>

From goodger at python.org  Wed Jul 21 23:17:42 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:17:42 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com> 
	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>

I just noticed this while cleaning up my inbox, missed it when it
arrived, sorry.

On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:44, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:37, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net>
>> wrote:
>> > I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page
>> > (http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):
>>
>> And I made some further improvements.
>
> Thanks.
>>
>> I note that your changes put more text up-front. This discussed a
>> while back, and IIRC we agreed that this would have the effect of
>> fewer people getting to the most important part: the template. It will
>> be interesting to see what effect these changes have.
>
> I took advantage of the fact that the template viewed on the webpage is
> in a highlighted block. In addition to adding some text, I also trimmed a
> little. ?I wanted to remove the volunteer paragraph.. do we really need that
> on both pages?

I think that point needs more emphasis, not less. I'm tired of seeing
reminders from impatient job posters. But it's near the end, so I
doubt many will make it to that point in the instructions. If anything
needs to be up-front and boldfaced, it's that.

-- David

> Based on the postings recently, people who make it to this page have
> little trouble finding the template but needed some help with filling it
> in.
> Hopefully, the ?changes will help there and save some rework.
>
>>
>> > Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented?
>> > It
>> > is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.
>>
>> Do you mean the numbered list? Item 1 was not properly indented, so it
>> didn't show up as a true HTML "list item" (it was just a paragraph
>> with "1." at the beginning; fixed now). Items 2 and up were properly
>> indented, and showed up as list items. The indentation is just how
>> browsers format lists.
>
>
> Facepalm. Thanks.
> //m
>>
>> --
>> David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From martin at martinthomas.net  Thu Jul 22 02:36:44 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:36:44 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>


On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:17 PM, David Goodger wrote:

> I just noticed this while cleaning up my inbox, missed it when it
> arrived, sorry.
> 
> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:44, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:37, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page
>>>> (http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):
>>> 
>>> And I made some further improvements.
>> 
>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> I note that your changes put more text up-front. This discussed a
>>> while back, and IIRC we agreed that this would have the effect of
>>> fewer people getting to the most important part: the template. It will
>>> be interesting to see what effect these changes have.
>> 
>> I took advantage of the fact that the template viewed on the webpage is
>> in a highlighted block. In addition to adding some text, I also trimmed a
>> little.  I wanted to remove the volunteer paragraph.. do we really need that
>> on both pages?
> 
> I think that point needs more emphasis, not less. I'm tired of seeing
> reminders from impatient job posters. But it's near the end, so I
> doubt many will make it to that point in the instructions. If anything
> needs to be up-front and boldfaced, it's that.
I completely agree.. except the "volunteer paragraph" I was referring to is the
second paragraph on the page that talk about looking at the wiki.  You are talking
about "life gets in the way" paragraph that closes the page.. which, incidentally, I 
don't think I touched.  

How about we remove the text about finding volunteer positions (as I originally
intended to say) and move the closing paragraph to second position?
Also, put a note in the auto-responder message if it is not there already?

Just my 2c. I am trying to make it clearer for the careful poster.  What would really 
help is some way for the posters who cannot or will not grok RST to fill in the 
template.

Regards // M
 
> 
> -- David
> 
>> Based on the postings recently, people who make it to this page have
>> little trouble finding the template but needed some help with filling it
>> in.
>> Hopefully, the  changes will help there and save some rework.
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented?
>>>> It
>>>> is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.
>>> 
>>> Do you mean the numbered list? Item 1 was not properly indented, so it
>>> didn't show up as a true HTML "list item" (it was just a paragraph
>>> with "1." at the beginning; fixed now). Items 2 and up were properly
>>> indented, and showed up as list items. The indentation is just how
>>> browsers format lists.
>> 
>> 
>> Facepalm. Thanks.
>> //m
>>> 
>>> --
>>> David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>
> 


From steve at holdenweb.com  Thu Jul 22 02:49:16 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 01:49:16 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>
	<DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
Message-ID: <4C47958C.4000100@holdenweb.com>

This seems to me to be a pretty clear indication from a valued volunteer
that we could help him by providing additional web functionality. How
can we provide this?

regards
 Steve

On 7/22/2010 1:36 AM, Martin Thomas wrote:
> 
> On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:17 PM, David Goodger wrote:
> 
>> I just noticed this while cleaning up my inbox, missed it when it
>> arrived, sorry.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:44, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 10:37, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> I have made a number of changes to the jobs howto page
>>>>> (http://www.python.org/community/jobs/howto/):
>>>>
>>>> And I made some further improvements.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> I note that your changes put more text up-front. This discussed a
>>>> while back, and IIRC we agreed that this would have the effect of
>>>> fewer people getting to the most important part: the template. It will
>>>> be interesting to see what effect these changes have.
>>>
>>> I took advantage of the fact that the template viewed on the webpage is
>>> in a highlighted block. In addition to adding some text, I also trimmed a
>>> little.  I wanted to remove the volunteer paragraph.. do we really need that
>>> on both pages?
>>
>> I think that point needs more emphasis, not less. I'm tired of seeing
>> reminders from impatient job posters. But it's near the end, so I
>> doubt many will make it to that point in the instructions. If anything
>> needs to be up-front and boldfaced, it's that.
> I completely agree.. except the "volunteer paragraph" I was referring to is the
> second paragraph on the page that talk about looking at the wiki.  You are talking
> about "life gets in the way" paragraph that closes the page.. which, incidentally, I 
> don't think I touched.  
> 
> How about we remove the text about finding volunteer positions (as I originally
> intended to say) and move the closing paragraph to second position?
> Also, put a note in the auto-responder message if it is not there already?
> 
> Just my 2c. I am trying to make it clearer for the careful poster.  What would really 
> help is some way for the posters who cannot or will not grok RST to fill in the 
> template.
> 
> Regards // M
>  
>>
>> -- David
>>
>>> Based on the postings recently, people who make it to this page have
>>> little trouble finding the template but needed some help with filling it
>>> in.
>>> Hopefully, the  changes will help there and save some rework.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone know why the bullet points after the template are indented?
>>>>> It
>>>>> is not a CSS issue, as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> Do you mean the numbered list? Item 1 was not properly indented, so it
>>>> didn't show up as a true HTML "list item" (it was just a paragraph
>>>> with "1." at the beginning; fixed now). Items 2 and up were properly
>>>> indented, and showed up as list items. The indentation is just how
>>>> browsers format lists.
>>>
>>>
>>> Facepalm. Thanks.
>>> //m
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 


-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
DjangoCon US September 7-9, 2010    http://djangocon.us/
See Python Video!       http://python.mirocommunity.org/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/

From goodger at python.org  Thu Jul 22 03:45:45 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 21:45:45 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>
	<DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim1m-pRKA5gU9pM_9CdArx1kiwab7bMu52OIg5U@mail.gmail.com>

>> On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 12:44, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
>>> I took advantage of the fact that the template viewed on the webpage is
>>> in a highlighted block. In addition to adding some text, I also trimmed a
>>> little. ?I wanted to remove the volunteer paragraph.. do we really need that
>>> on both pages?

> On Jul 21, 2010, at 4:17 PM, David Goodger wrote:
>> I think that point needs more emphasis, not less. I'm tired of seeing
>> reminders from impatient job posters. But it's near the end, so I
>> doubt many will make it to that point in the instructions. If anything
>> needs to be up-front and boldfaced, it's that.

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 20:36, Martin Thomas <martin at martinthomas.net> wrote:
> I completely agree.. except the "volunteer paragraph" I was referring to is the
> second paragraph on the page that talk about looking at the wiki. ?You are talking
> about "life gets in the way" paragraph that closes the page.. which, incidentally, I
> don't think I touched.

I see. So apart from the misunderstanding we're in violent agreement :-)

> How about we remove the text about finding volunteer positions (as I originally
> intended to say)

We don't post volunteer positions though, so shouldn't we state that?
The text was put there when such volunteer posts became annoying.

> and move the closing paragraph to second position?
> Also, put a note in the auto-responder message if it is not there already?

Sure.

In the end, it's up to you -- whoever does the work gets final say.

> Just my 2c. I am trying to make it clearer for the careful poster. ?What would really
> help is some way for the posters who cannot or will not grok RST to fill in the
> template.

That's a whole 'nother discussion, which I'll keep out of...

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Jul 22 09:53:48 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 08:53:48 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <4C47958C.4000100@holdenweb.com>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>	<AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>	<DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
	<4C47958C.4000100@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4C47F90C.4090808@v.loewis.de>

Am 22.07.10 01:49, schrieb Steve Holden:
> This seems to me to be a pretty clear indication from a valued volunteer
> that we could help him by providing additional web functionality. How
> can we provide this?

There is already a roundup instance that accepts job submissions. It 
just needs completion. Of course, as usual, I am not sure who this "we"
is that you keep mentioning...

Regards,
Martin

From martin at martinthomas.net  Thu Jul 22 22:22:42 2010
From: martin at martinthomas.net (Martin Thomas)
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 15:22:42 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Updates to Jobs HowTo page
In-Reply-To: <4C47F90C.4090808@v.loewis.de>
References: <AANLkTinUNEhOxEH2qy9rh8xGh5i_JG_KdxJ9jIpFCHM8@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikKYkOmZykT9G5Yw3R24XdDNUQHb08fP6cZbdEq@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilpj9dYoGPiNv2JXtcBE0rLHXicfwfYvxUwo51S@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinsHBy4KJ6J9__7VfDY02ao3lTiKBwF67M--0Zc@mail.gmail.com>
	<DD96EF0F-5508-4AB0-AEEC-C1798915B372@martinthomas.net>
	<4C47958C.4000100@holdenweb.com> <4C47F90C.4090808@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilLVz_Gr-6lRfSp5aKMPBmRovicC5MQ1gO4KE_W@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:53 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de>wrote:

> Am 22.07.10 01:49, schrieb Steve Holden:
>
>  This seems to me to be a pretty clear indication from a valued volunteer
>> that we could help him by providing additional web functionality. How
>> can we provide this?
>>
> I am working on something.  I'll shoot out a link when I am ready for the
derision.

>
> There is already a roundup instance that accepts job submissions. It just
> needs completion. Of course, as usual, I am not sure who this "we"
> is that you keep mentioning...
>

If Roundup can fix broken RST or even insert it  when it is missing, I'll
take a look.
I think I have said this before but most of the time in updating the Job
Board is taken
by wrangling the submissions so that they mostly look like each other and
fixing RST
problems.

Regards // M

>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100722/b999dcd1/attachment.html>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue Jul 27 21:14:39 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 12:14:39 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Pootle Server Error
Message-ID: <20100727191439.GA13945@panix.com>

I don't remember who's handling the Pootle stuff

----- Forwarded message from Christophe Combelles <ccomb at free.fr> -----

> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:33:47 +0200
> From: Christophe Combelles <ccomb at free.fr>
> To: webmaster at python.org
> Subject: Pootle Server Error
> 
> Hi,
>
> I have a server error on my account on this page:
>
> http://pootle.python.org/pootle/accounts/ccomb/
>
> regards,
> Christophe Combelles

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue Jul 27 21:42:07 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 21:42:07 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Pootle Server Error
In-Reply-To: <20100727191439.GA13945@panix.com>
References: <20100727191439.GA13945@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4C4F368F.5030909@v.loewis.de>

Am 27.07.2010 21:14, schrieb Aahz:
> I don't remember who's handling the Pootle stuff

Am 27.07.2010 21:14, schrieb Aahz:
> I don't remember who's handling the Pootle stuff

It's me, and then the GSoC student who is setting this up,
Robert Lehmann (CCed).

Regards,
Martin

> ----- Forwarded message from Christophe Combelles <ccomb at free.fr> -----
> 
>> Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2010 20:33:47 +0200
>> From: Christophe Combelles <ccomb at free.fr>
>> To: webmaster at python.org
>> Subject: Pootle Server Error
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a server error on my account on this page:
>>
>> http://pootle.python.org/pootle/accounts/ccomb/
>>
>> regards,
>> Christophe Combelles
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 


From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 01:37:42 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:37:42 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
Message-ID: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new planet
(blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.

The idea would be to augment the efforts of
http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and provide a
way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a lot to ask of
user groups to make "special" blog entries on
http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a user
group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at least I could
easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, for example, relating
to ZPUGDC's activities.)

I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything about the
Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently serving as
"infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community  (
http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background (
http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-)


Alex

P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the time
and commitment over the new few months, for example.



-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100728/87a447e0/attachment.html>

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Jul 29 01:41:12 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 00:41:12 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C50C018.1080006@python.org>

On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new 
> planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
>

Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?

Michael

> The idea would be to augment the efforts of 
> http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and 
> provide a way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a 
> lot to ask of user groups to make "special" blog entries on 
> http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a 
> user group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at 
> least I could easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, 
> for example, relating to ZPUGDC's activities.)
>
> I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything 
> about the Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently 
> serving as "infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community  
> (http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background 
> (http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-)
>
>
> Alex
>
> P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the 
> time and commitment over the new few months, for example.
>
>
>
> -- 
> Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
> Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/a4cd4ee6/attachment.html>

From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 01:58:30 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 19:58:30 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:

>  On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new
> planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
>
>
> Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
>

Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group feed".

As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for
Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User groups"
planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on
http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s (and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying
to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that will
make it easier for others too.

I think I posted once,
http://python-groups.blogspot.com/2008/12/zpugdc-dc-python-meetup-december.html.
And it looks like posting is down about this year, with only 7 posts in
2010.

I picture a link to it fitting in well in the "Other Python Planets" section
here: http://planet.python.org/.







>
> Michael
>
> The idea would be to augment the efforts of
> http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ (not to impugn their work!) and provide
> a way to get some good user group buzz going. (It's kind of a lot to ask of
> user groups to make "special" blog entries on
> http://python-groups.blogspot.com/ whereas it's reasonable to assume a
> user group can setup their own blog and post to it, I think? Or at least I
> could easily send a feed to it from http://blog.aclark.net, for example,
> relating to ZPUGDC's activities.)
>
> I'd like to volunteer to do this work. Now, I don't know anything about the
> Python community's infrastructure, but I am currently serving as
> "infrastructure team" leader in the Plone community  (
> http://admins.plone.org). I have a system administration background (
> http://aclark.net/resume) and I'd love to help! :-)
>
>
> Alex
>
> P.S. I also don't have a lot of free time, but I'm willing to make the time
> and commitment over the new few months, for example.
>
>
>
> --
> Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
> Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing listpydotorg-www at python.orghttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
>
> -- http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
>
>
>


-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100728/c3f872f3/attachment-0001.html>

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jul 29 02:30:42 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 17:30:42 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010, Alex Clark wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>  On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
>>
>>> I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new
>>> planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
>>
>> Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
> 
> Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group feed".
> 
> As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for
> Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User groups"
> planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on
> http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s (and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying
> to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that will
> make it easier for others too.

My take is similar to Michael's: I can't imagine caring about user groups
generally.  Take a look at wiki LocalUserGroups -- there are way too
many.  So I'd bet that people would mostly subscribe only to specific
groups' blogs.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 03:03:24 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 21:03:24 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 8:30 PM, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010, Alex Clark wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org>
> wrote:
> >>  On 29/07/2010 00:37, Alex Clark wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've been speaking with Doug Hellmann recently about setting up a new
> >>> planet (blog feed aggregater) for Python user group blog feeds.
> >>
> >> Why not just add the user group blogs to the existing planet?
> >
> > Good question, I think because the point is to create a "user group
> feed".
> >
> > As an individual, I'm starting to think about joining Planet Python for
> > Python-specific posts. But I'd join the "Happenings in Python User
> groups"
> > planet to post PUG-specific things. Again, I don't want to step on
> > http://python-groups.blogspot.com/'s<http://python-groups.blogspot.com/%27s>(and Jeff Rush's) toes. I'm just trying
> > to figure out a way to make it easier for me to post, and hoping that
> will
> > make it easier for others too.
>
> My take is similar to Michael's: I can't imagine caring about user groups
> generally.  Take a look at wiki LocalUserGroups -- there are way too
> many.  So I'd bet that people would mostly subscribe only to specific
> groups' blogs.
>



Right, but the point is? we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're
trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're
trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a
spotlight of sorts.


Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many
user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all
(and keeping the list current), but that's a different story?





> --
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>
> http://www.pythoncraft.com/
>
> "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>



-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100728/4dfe89f6/attachment.html>

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Thu Jul 29 05:54:49 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 23:54:49 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>

Alex Clark wrote:
> Right, but the point is? we know no one cares about user groups :-) 
> We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In 
> particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that 
> is to give them a spotlight of sorts.
>
>
> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too 
> many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of 
> them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story?

I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is 
limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then 
following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't 
seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be 
getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.

That said, I would be perfectly fine if all of them blogged and showed 
up on planet python since I already expect there to be far more than I 
can read there and I just skim for what I'm interested in reading.

- Stephan


From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 09:47:24 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 03:47:24 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimth2CxT=QAem47XuZkW3fDL6BO7a3fPQCriU6C@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel <sdeibel at wingware.com>wrote:

> Alex Clark wrote:
>
>> Right, but the point is? we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're
>> trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're
>> trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a
>> spotlight of sorts.
>>
>>
>> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many
>> user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all
>> (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story?
>>
>
> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited
> to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those
> groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting
> thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what
> all user groups are doing.
>

You are. And I hadn't really intended to get into this too much, but suffice
it to say there are people interested collaboration between user groups for
the purposes of advancing the state of the art (of grass roots support). If
a software community's grass roots support is strong (i.e. lots of user
group activity) then lots of Good Things Can Happen?, including:

   - People interested in the software have a local resource, a place to
   meet and gather with other like-minded folks, and possibly get a job.
   - Organizations in the local community have a resource where they can
   find Good People?
   - All manner of productivity can occur in the form of user group
   meetings, sprints, trainings, conferences, etc., powered by the folks
   described in the previous two bullet points.

If the software community does not support local user groups, then Bad
Things Can Happen?, including:

   - None of the above 3 bullet points can occur.
   - Folks interested in supporting the software become discouraged, when
   the software community does not support their efforts (i.e. folks like me.
   While I'm used to pushing the envelope, and dealing with different-minded
   folks, and trying to encourage change, other folks may not be as
   persistent).



>
> That said, I would be perfectly fine if all of them blogged and showed up
> on planet python since I already expect there to be far more than I can read
> there and I just skim for what I'm interested in reading.
>

Right, but there is no incentive for them (or anyone interested in them), if
the blog postings are not aggregated into a separate feed? again, not
looking to debate anyone here, just offering to do something that Doug
Hellmann and I discussed and both thought was an interesting idea ;-)


This should be a trivial addition IMVHO to python.org that either helps or
does nothing?


In case it helps, take a look at http://meetup.zpugdc.org. We have
approximately 300 Python programmers in our membership, 20 of which show up
every month for meetings. And a growing list of sponsors from the local
business/gov/non-profit community (well, no gov sponsors yet). The idea is
as simple as this: I want to help build these kind of organizations
worldwide, but I can't do it alone. We need the support of the software
communities, whose software we advocate to take the idea seriously.




>
> - Stephan
>
>


-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/2e383493/attachment-0001.html>

From doug.hellmann at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 15:43:57 2010
From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 09:43:57 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
Message-ID: <88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>


On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:

> Alex Clark wrote:
>> Right, but the point is? we know no one cares about user groups :-) We're trying to get people to care about user groups ;-). In particular, we're trying to empower user groups and one way to do that is to give them a spotlight of sorts.
>> 
>> 
>> Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "way too many". Can you have too many user groups? You can certainly have a hard time keeping track of them all (and keeping the list current), but that's a different story?
> 
> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.

There would be several benefits to having a single place for all Python user group news:

1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about establishing a federation of regional/international foundations to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for those new foundations.

2. People interested in finding a local user group would have a place to look. We do have a wiki page for user groups now, but I don't know how up to date it is.  The first step of this project might be to update it and incorporate the results into 

3. Members or organizers of user groups who want to enhance their meetings to find new activities would have an easy way to learn about those.  The second phase of the project, after the new planet feed is established, would be to encourage members of the user groups to write about their meetings.

4. User groups who want to collaborate and set up speaking tours, regional conferences, sprints, or other combined activities would have a place to advertise.  These sorts of notices could go on the existing planet feed, too, but see #2.

5. Non-members would have a way to find out about upcoming activities being run by groups near them, but perhaps not in the same town.  See #3 and #2.

All of these uses are different than the existing planet feed, which is predominantly aggregating posts written by individuals about their own work.  The tone, and potential audience, for the new planet may be different than a heads-down technical audience of the existing planet.

Doug


From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Thu Jul 29 17:12:06 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 08:12:06 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
>> 
>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't
>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be
>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
>
> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
> Python user group news:
>
> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for
> those new foundations.

Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal?  We
could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would explicitly
label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org news feed could
then be one of the first sources.
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From doug.hellmann at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 17:25:34 2010
From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:25:34 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>
	<20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>
Message-ID: <44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>


On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
>>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
>>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't
>>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be
>>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
>> 
>> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
>> Python user group news:
>> 
>> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
>> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
>> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
>> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
>> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for
>> those new foundations.
> 
> Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal?  We
> could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would explicitly
> label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
> conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org news feed could
> then be one of the first sources.

That makes a lot of sense.  We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).

Alex, what do you think?

Doug


From sdeibel at wingware.com  Thu Jul 29 17:28:21 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 11:28:21 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimth2CxT=QAem47XuZkW3fDL6BO7a3fPQCriU6C@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
	<AANLkTimth2CxT=QAem47XuZkW3fDL6BO7a3fPQCriU6C@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C519E15.8040403@wingware.com>

Alex Clark wrote:
> You are. And I hadn't really intended to get into this too much, but 
> suffice it to say there are people interested collaboration between 
> user groups for the purposes of advancing the state of the art (of 
> grass roots support).

Ah, yes, I hadn't thought of group organizers themselves as the 
audience, and that makes sense to me (as do Doug's related points).

In case you don't already know there is an old email list for this too 
(group organizers helping each other):  
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/group-organizers -- but it's 
rarely used last I checked.

Looking at the revision log for the users groups wiki page, it does seem 
some people update it but I'm sure it's incomplete and outdated in part 
as well.

Thanks for working on this!

- Stephan


From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 18:04:07 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:04:07 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>
	<20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>
	<44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik17SJJjQ=0HecCjL+ytgP_j+WZLABZuJj=+d9X@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
> >>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
> >>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't
> >>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be
> >>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
> >>
> >> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
> >> Python user group news:
> >>
> >> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
> >> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
> >> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
> >> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
> >> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for
> >> those new foundations.
> >
> > Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal?  We
> > could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would explicitly
> > label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
> > conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org news feed could
> > then be one of the first sources.
>
> That makes a lot of sense.  We could pull posts from the blog for the new
> sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a
> specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
>
> Alex, what do you think?
>


Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new
planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it,
as would any UG that wanted to.

I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at
some point, if it proved successful.

Feed madness!

:-)

Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance
in implementing if you decide to move forward.


Alex



>
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>



-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/293ca951/attachment-0001.html>

From aclark at aclark.net  Thu Jul 29 18:04:16 2010
From: aclark at aclark.net (Alex Clark)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:04:16 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>
	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>
	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>
	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>
	<20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>
	<44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimDOvnUuHwNX6c65oSdDq2M1wJBsroAQEpg3wnR@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
> >> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
> >>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
> >>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't
> >>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be
> >>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
> >>
> >> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
> >> Python user group news:
> >>
> >> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
> >> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
> >> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
> >> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
> >> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for
> >> those new foundations.
> >
> > Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal?  We
> > could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would explicitly
> > label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
> > conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org news feed could
> > then be one of the first sources.
>
> That makes a lot of sense.  We could pull posts from the blog for the new
> sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a
> specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
>
> Alex, what do you think?
>


Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new
planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it,
as would any UG that wanted to.

I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at
some point, if it proved successful.

Feed madness!

:-)

Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance
in implementing if you decide to move forward.


Alex



>
> Doug
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>



-- 
Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/e48c2cab/attachment.html>

From mfoord at python.org  Thu Jul 29 18:07:37 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:07:37 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik17SJJjQ=0HecCjL+ytgP_j+WZLABZuJj=+d9X@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>	<20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>	<44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik17SJJjQ=0HecCjL+ytgP_j+WZLABZuJj=+d9X@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C51A749.40400@python.org>

On 29/07/2010 17:04, Alex Clark wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann 
> <doug.hellmann at gmail.com <mailto:doug.hellmann at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
>
>     > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
>     >> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
>     >>>
>     >>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
>     >>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
>     >>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups
>     doesn't
>     >>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just
>     not be
>     >>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
>     >>
>     >> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
>     >> Python user group news:
>     >>
>     >> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
>     >> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
>     >> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
>     >> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
>     >> important since they are a likely source of members and
>     organizers for
>     >> those new foundations.
>     >
>     > Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your
>     proposal?  We
>     > could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would
>     explicitly
>     > label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
>     > conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org
>     <http://python.org> news feed could
>     > then be one of the first sources.
>
>     That makes a lot of sense.  We could pull posts from the blog for
>     the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog
>     (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
>
>     Alex, what do you think?
>
>
>
> Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a 
> new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would 
> feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to.
>
> I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org 
> <http://planet.python.org/> at some point, if it proved successful.
>

I would expect several of the news sources to *already* be aggregated on 
planet python, so we couldn't just pull in the feed wholesale. It sounds 
like there is consensus that a community news feed will have value on 
its own - but we should maintain them separately.

Feeds in the community news planet can be added to the main planet 
individually.

All the best,

Michael

> Feed madness!
>
> :-)
>
> Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any 
> assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward.
>
>
> Alex
>
>
>
>     Doug
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     pydotorg-www mailing list
>     pydotorg-www at python.org <mailto:pydotorg-www at python.org>
>     http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
> Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/ba829173/attachment.html>

From doug.hellmann at gmail.com  Thu Jul 29 18:13:38 2010
From: doug.hellmann at gmail.com (Doug Hellmann)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 12:13:38 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] A new planet for user group blog postings!
In-Reply-To: <4C51A749.40400@python.org>
References: <AANLkTinnQFm3x2OMi1b5S-RpoD7J4jgiNZfBPJ15LKdw@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50C018.1080006@python.org>	<AANLkTim4pNnaNDtDUXTugZVzaMO6HSdgqF7oURmAY67Q@mail.gmail.com>	<20100729003042.GA1758@panix.com>	<AANLkTim0nn_NzXLmZ7O=pJt4rAkbwUipbO4+UGt64VuF@mail.gmail.com>	<4C50FB89.9050007@wingware.com>	<88499C15-9C8C-4E98-B9D5-44B25DA05AB2@gmail.com>	<20100729151206.GC25436@panix.com>	<44CADCB6-4CB0-4339-AB00-EB012DBD3604@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik17SJJjQ=0HecCjL+ytgP_j+WZLABZuJj=+d9X@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C51A749.40400@python.org>
Message-ID: <025CA867-04B2-42C4-8FF0-9C38A4302DD8@gmail.com>


On Jul 29, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Michael Foord wrote:

> On 29/07/2010 17:04, Alex Clark wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Doug Hellmann <doug.hellmann at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Aahz wrote:
>> 
>> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010, Doug Hellmann wrote:
>> >> On Jul 28, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Stephan Deibel wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I think people are interested in user groups, but their interest
>> >>> is limited to first finding one or a few groups near them and then
>> >>> following just those groups.  A world-wide feed of all groups doesn't
>> >>> seem like an interesting thing to me either, though I may just not be
>> >>> getting why I would care what all user groups are doing.
>> >>
>> >> There would be several benefits to having a single place for all
>> >> Python user group news:
>> >>
>> >> 1. It would celebrate the fact that the community encourages user
>> >> groups.  Given the recent discussions on the PSF members list about
>> >> establishing a federation of regional/international foundations
>> >> to work with the PSF, local user groups are going to become more
>> >> important since they are a likely source of members and organizers for
>> >> those new foundations.
>> >
>> > Perhaps your purposes would be served by broadening your proposal?  We
>> > could make this an aggregator for "community news".  We would explicitly
>> > label it as specifically for user group news in addition to e.g.
>> > conference news, sprints, and so on.  The python.org news feed could
>> > then be one of the first sources.
>> 
>> That makes a lot of sense.  We could pull posts from the blog for the new sprint project Jesse is organizing and the pyfound blog (maybe limited to a specific tag, to avoid cross-posting everything).
>> 
>> Alex, what do you think?
>> 
>> 
>> Sure, if I understand correctly there is agreement to the idea of a new planet for "community news", and http://python.org/news/ would feed to it, as would any UG that wanted to.
>> 
>> I also pictured this "community news" feed going to planet.python.org at some point, if it proved successful.
>> 
> 
> I would expect several of the news sources to *already* be aggregated on planet python, so we couldn't just pull in the feed wholesale. It sounds like there is consensus that a community news feed will have value on its own - but we should maintain them separately. 

I agree, let's plan to keep them separate for now and see how that goes.

Doug

> Feeds in the community news planet can be added to the main planet individually. 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Michael
> 
>> Feed madness!
>> 
>> :-)
>> 
>> Thanks, all for considering. And let me know if I can be of any assistance in implementing if you decide to move forward.
>> 
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Alex Clark ? http://aclark.net
>> Author ? Plone 3.3 Site Administration ? http://aclark.net/admin
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> pydotorg-www mailing list
>> pydotorg-www at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>>   
> 
> 
> -- 
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
> 
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100729/e86f5791/attachment-0001.html>

From barry at python.org  Fri Jul 30 22:47:33 2010
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 16:47:33 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Archives corruption (was: [PythonInfo Wiki]
 Update of "tftp" by 79.132.252.94)
In-Reply-To: <201007062132.26183.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <AANLkTikmdntQ3V4ny-4v5jgVDPSJ2uX8MZf8bD22uvH7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100706103936.263c47e0@heresy>
	<201007062132.26183.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20100730164733.33bc0f10@heresy>

Trying to catch up on some old threads...

On Jul 06, 2010, at 09:32 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>> The best way to regenerate a clean archive is to take the mbox file,
>> run cleanarch over it, then run 'arch --wipe'.  The urls will
>> probably be broken, so if the original urls can be retrieved then I
>> think the easiest way to "fix" them is to write some alias rules for
>> Apache to do permanent redirects to the new urls.  This is not a
>> trivial amount of work, which is probably why it hasn't been done
>> yet.  Who wants to - and can - volunteer to see this through to the
>> end?
>
>Is it not possible to get an old version of Mailman to generate
>archives which presumably have the same traits as those previously
>generated, record the identifier to Message-Id (or other "anchoring"
>property) correspondence, and then relabel the messages in the fixed
>archives with the old identifiers? Or does the whole "as messages
>arrive" thing completely prevent any possibility of reproducing the
>correct archived message ordering?

I think it will be problematic with an archive as old as python-dev.  It's
worth a shot of course <wink>, but python-dev's mbox definitely spans the
problematic region and cleanarch is just a heuristic.  The on-demand archive
generation is different enough (even though it uses much of the same code
path) that I'm not positive it's stable even without the mbox bug, and it will
be difficult to verify.

I just don't have the cycles to do much testing of this, but I'll answer
questions for anyone who does.

>> On a second level, I've been searching for volunteers to fix this
>> wart in Pipermail for at least a decade.  No one's stepped forward
>> so far.  If you're interested in helping, the Mailman project would
>> love to have you.
>
>It sounds like a fun project, and I'm tempted, but I also have a fair
>amount of other stuff to do right now, including writing a talk for
>EuroPython, although this might make for some interesting material for
>that talk. ;-)

Hope that went well!
-Barry
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 836 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100730/1f941527/attachment.pgp>