From es at ethanschoonover.com  Tue May  4 00:36:09 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:36:09 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
Message-ID: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>

Summary
============================================================

As part of my contribution to this stage of the Python.org project
I've volunteered to start compiling use cases. Before I can do this, I
need to compile *user-profiles*. In other words *who* comes to
Python.org (or who *should* come, even if they aren't now) and *why*
do they visit.


Mailing List Brainstorming
============================================================

There are a lot of ways to put together lists like this. Market
research, competitive review, internal brainstorming, etc. This is a
call for *internal brainstorming*.

**There are no wrong ideas in a brainstorming session.**

I'd rather not debate specific user profiles in this thread. What I
want is the broadest possible collection of ideas that I can then add
to my own lists and collect into a cohesive draft of base profiles.


Examples
============================================================

Here are a couple examples that might kick start your own ideas/descriptions:


Pythonista under Pointed Haired Boss
------------------------------------------------------------
Already committed Python coder needs to convince senior IT or upper
management why Python makes sense for their organization. Looking for
information on Python.org that can help make her case.


Uncommitted Researcher
------------------------------------------------------------
User looking to pick amongst the current crop of Python peer level
languages. May have a specific or general need. Wants to compare
LanguageX to Python or may simply be looking for that final
confirmation that Python is the best option for their needs.


Greybeard Switcher
------------------------------------------------------------
Expert programmers switching to Python (reasons for switching?)...
wants a high level, just the facts ma'am summary so that he/she can
make own decision or jump start learning.


Coerced Coed
------------------------------------------------------------
Students that are required to learn Python as part of a course. Looking for...?


What I'd like you to do
============================================================

If you want to contribute, please reply to this thread with a user
profile (and brief description if you want). Short and sweet is fine.
Duplicates are fine. Variations on a theme or on another person's idea
are fine.


What I'll do with this information
============================================================

I'll be working to identify common aspects to the user descriptions
(experience, commitment, relationship to Python community, needs,
etc.). This will become part of the draft report as detailed in
Richard's existing plan.


-Ethan


Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com

From martin at v.loewis.de  Tue May  4 00:52:51 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 00:52:51 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BDF53C3.8010905@v.loewis.de>

Here is who I think are the users of python.org
(not restricted to www.python.org)

Python Windows User
-------------------

Wants to download the Python MSI file, in order
to install it on her workstation or laptop.

Python Developer Reading Documentation
--------------------------------------

Developer needs to find out how some API works.

Python Developer Reporting a Bug
--------------------------------

Goes to bugs.python.org, fills out form;
later follows-up.

Python Developer Releasing a Package
------------------------------------

Goes to pypi.python.org, and uploads file.
50% chance that no webbrowser is involved
(I could find out more correct statistics if
desired).

Python Developer Looking for Some Package
-----------------------------------------

Browses list of PyPI hits, obtained from Google
or local search, then downloads respective module.

Python Developer Installing Some Known Package
----------------------------------------------

Often not through a web browser, but through
easy_install, pip, zc.buildout, and so on.

Python Core Contributor
-----------------------

Not sure whether I should list their tasks in
separate profiles; I think many of them:
- use the version control system (svn/hg)
- use the bug tracker
- look at the buildbot results
Some also:
- have their build slave connect to the buildbot master
- upload releases and/or documentation

Mailing List Member
-------------------

Subscribe to some MailMan list, and then send and receive postings to
the list. Get reminded of list membership on Happy MailMan Day.

Job Hunter
----------

Reads job postings

Head Hunter
-----------

Submits job postings.

Website Contributor
-------------------

Again, there are several channels on which people contribute,
including
- sending their blog feeds for integration into the planet
- posting stuff to the wiki
- proposing error corrections on the web pages, primarily
  for the Python documentation.

HTH,
Martin

From mfoord at python.org  Tue May  4 00:56:21 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 23:56:21 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <4BDF53C3.8010905@v.loewis.de>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BDF53C3.8010905@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <4BDF5495.6030808@python.org>

On 03/05/2010 23:52, "Martin v. L?wis" wrote:
> [snip...]
> Python Developer Looking for Some Package
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Browses list of PyPI hits, obtained from Google
> or local search, then downloads respective module.
>
>    
More and more it seems like developers are putting their documentation 
on PyPI (either through the documentation hosting system or on the PyPI 
page itself). I've often found myself on PyPI reading *about* a package.

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From es at ethanschoonover.com  Tue May  4 00:59:47 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 15:59:47 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <4BDF53C3.8010905@v.loewis.de>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BDF53C3.8010905@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <r2td72a15511005031559v196d90e1i9b2109e3d0401c34@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 15:52, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Here is who I think are the users of python.org
> (not restricted to www.python.org)

That's a good point and worth reiterating: many of the user groups
that we want to target may not be visiting Python.org yet (or may only
make use of a subset of it):

- Users that hang out in Python sub-communities, such as on
http://www.reddit.com/r/python
- Users of programming specific sites such as
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python
- Developers jumping straight to PyPI via Google results

So as Martin and Michael just did, it's great to mention these users
in their current context as well.

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue May  4 02:52:02 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:52:02 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>

On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
>
> If you want to contribute, please reply to this thread with a user
> profile (and brief description if you want). Short and sweet is fine.
> Duplicates are fine. Variations on a theme or on another person's idea
> are fine.

Pointy-haired boss looking for info (as opposed to previously-mentioned
subordinate)

Journalist researching Python (either in its own right or as part of
e.g. the SEC story)

New Pythonista looking for others
    * Mailing lists
    * User groups
    * Conferences

Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in
Python itself
    * Needing a specific version to get package running
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Tue May  4 03:54:03 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 18:54:03 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
Message-ID: <g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
> Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in
> Python itself

That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and
which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg
experience with Python. First impressions, etc.

Keep 'em coming...

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Tue May  4 06:52:59 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:52:59 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com>

On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in
>> Python itself
> 
> That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and
> which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg
> experience with Python. First impressions, etc.

Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g.
for vim or Paint Shop Pro).
-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code."
--Bill Harlan

From steve at holdenweb.com  Tue May  4 12:49:51 2010
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 06:49:51 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com>
Message-ID: <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>

Aahz wrote:
> On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz <aahz at pythoncraft.com> wrote:
>>> Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in
>>> Python itself
>> That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and
>> which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg
>> experience with Python. First impressions, etc.
> 
> Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g.
> for vim or Paint Shop Pro).

Which reminds me: there are whole classes of users who come to Python
because it's the embedded scripting language in their application.
Everything from SPSS through Blender and Maya to ARC geo now use Python
as their scripting language of choice. These people surely need help too
(and maybe the commercial vendors would like to help?)

Not to mention the many users who learn Python to use Django to develop
web sites.

regards
 Steve
-- 
Steve Holden           +1 571 484 6266   +1 800 494 3119
See PyCon Talks from Atlanta 2010  http://pycon.blip.tv/
Holden Web LLC                 http://www.holdenweb.com/
UPCOMING EVENTS:        http://holdenweb.eventbrite.com/

From mfoord at python.org  Tue May  4 12:52:06 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 11:52:06 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com>
	<4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>

On 04/05/2010 11:49, Steve Holden wrote:
> Aahz wrote:
>    
>> On Mon, May 03, 2010, Ethan Schoonover wrote:
>>      
>>> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 17:52, Aahz<aahz at pythoncraft.com>  wrote:
>>>        
>>>> Trying to run an application written in Python but not interested in
>>>> Python itself
>>>>          
>>> That's a great entry point to Python exposure I hadn't thought of and
>>> which I have to imagine can have a huge impact on initial pos/neg
>>> experience with Python. First impressions, etc.
>>>        
>> Related: user trying to learn Python as a macro/embedded language (e.g.
>> for vim or Paint Shop Pro).
>>      
> Which reminds me: there are whole classes of users who come to Python
> because it's the embedded scripting language in their application.
> Everything from SPSS through Blender and Maya to ARC geo now use Python
> as their scripting language of choice. These people surely need help too
> (and maybe the commercial vendors would like to help?)
>
>    

There's another interesting class of Python users - who may end up on 
the Python website. Java and C# developers who are using IronPython and 
Jython to embed in *their* applications as scripting languages. (Plus 
C/C++ developers who embed CPython.)

All the best,

Michael

> Not to mention the many users who learn Python to use Django to develop
> web sites.
>
> regards
>   Steve
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue May  4 17:33:26 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 18:33:26 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
Message-ID: <w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>

I would add also - plain internet folks who by a chance stumbled upon
python.org website. Or not by a chance. Gamers, who want to make
custom level and heard that their game engine uses Python. Game
developers, who would like to start using Python (or switching from
Lua) as scripting language for their engines. Users of Google API that
learn Python to automate things or write robots for Google Wave.
Observers that passively watch Python development. Stackless, PyPy
users/developers that need to sync with core. Scientists who look at
Python as FORTRAN replacement and use SciPy, .. ahem.. and many others
scientific tools written in Python. C folks, who do not know that
Python can speed up the development process when being the primary
language for integrating modules.

Also Python users, who do not know they were using Python, but got
some related error message. Ubuntu users who have heard that Ubuntu
promotes usage of Python. Ubuntu developers, who develop Launchpad and
other Canonical services. Ubuntu/Debian/Haiku/other developers, who
need to package Python apps for their users.

Teachers, who look into Python for their introductory courses into
Computer Science after MIT.

Python users reporting bugs.
Python developers trying to find their way around bugs, subscribe to
important bugs, compile a list of personal bugs that would be nice to
be done some day, also looking for ways to confirm/fix bugs.
Developers of Python applications, who would like to monitor upstream
Python bugs that cause problems with their apps.

Developers/admins who look into Python to hack Trac. Developers who
are trying to understand metaclasses to get the idea how Trac core
works. Developers, who look for instructions how to debug Python code
to understand how Trac handles requests. Developers, who look for
Python IDE.

People looking for information about bugs, searching web site, bug
tracker, wiki, asking help in IRC, looking for searchable Google
Groups archive of discussions and trolling pydotorg-www mailing list.
=) Also Google search users. Also people interested in real pythons
and snakes. People looking for phyton. A lot of people looking for
tutorial more than documentation -
http://www.python.org/webstats/usage_201005.html#TOPSEARCH - also for
Guido van Rossum and PEP8.


BTW, Google Wave is more suited for such kind of
compilations/collaborations - it even has default Brainstorming
template.

-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue May  4 17:48:59 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 18:48:59 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>

One more - developers who look how to integrate services/tools used by
python.org into their own workflow. For obvious reason - they are
already familiar with these tools or like how they work. For example,
OpenID integration for Roundup.

-- 
anatoly t.

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Wed May  5 00:30:55 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 15:30:55 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com> 
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com>

Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent
feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add
to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into
a more structured review of visitor types and will have further
questions this week.

Best,
Ethan

Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed May  5 09:33:16 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:33:16 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Ethan Schoonover <es at ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
> Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent
> feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add
> to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into
> a more structured review of visitor types and will have further
> questions this week.

Seems like we've completely left out social and professional aspect.
Besides developers, scientists and students, python.org is visited by
- designers, government folks, consultants, home users, engineers,
media folks, people from financial sphere, network administrators,
lawyers, military professions, office workers.

Social are gender - men and women. Age - 10 to 70 (it would be
actually interesting to read an interview with the oldest Python
user).

Bounce ratio - how many users find site interesting. There 2 kind of
site users - returning and new. Majority of new site users don't know
anything about p.o site at all. However, the majority of site users
are returning.

Age groups can be analyzed also by view and experience. I suppose that
in age group of 30 and up there are usually people with vast
development experience and conservative views. In group under 30
there are people who monitor what's going on in Internet and know
recent trends. Group under 23 are active Internet users who know or
have accounts in about almost every modern Internet service, but do
not have development experience to see how these services works. There
is a strong correlation between age and amount of new things people
aware of/tried. It is because more experienced developers are more
busy with work, they often have children and a lot of errands to run,
hence almost no time. So, 90% of Python Developers category are also
"people with no time". =)
-- 
anatoly t.

From fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk  Wed May  5 12:43:45 2010
From: fuzzyman at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 11:43:45 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: broken mailing list links in PEP(s?)
Message-ID: <4BE14BE1.6090200@voidspace.org.uk>

Hello all,

It looks like the changes to the python-dev mailman archives broke some 
of the links in PEPs.

All the best,

Michael Foord

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	broken mailing list links in PEP(s?)
Date: 	Tue, 4 May 2010 20:22:57 -0700
From: 	Bayle Shanks <bayle.shanks at gmail.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



On http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0225/ , in the section "Credits
and archives", there are a bunch of links like



http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2000-July/108893.html


which are broken


thanks,
   bayle

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From es at ethanschoonover.com  Wed May  5 18:19:33 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 09:19:33 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100504005202.GB8667@panix.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com> 
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <w2rd72a15511005050919r429e8ad8h286886eb6a749c96@mail.gmail.com>

Anatoly, thanks for the continued contribution on this. FWIW I will
also be including some standard demographic/psychographic categories
where they seem appropriate.

When you are speaking of age, sex and other demographic breakdowns,
I'm curious if there have been any actual studies of demographics on
the site? Or is this more anecdotal? Not to discount anecdote... it
may end up being our best internal data available (for better or
worse).

Also, regarding bounce rate, is this based on data or estimate?
Nothing wrong with estimates as a first pass, but if there some data
hiding around somewhere, I'm interested to uncover it as well.

Thanks again,
Ethan


Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com




On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 00:33, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 1:30 AM, Ethan Schoonover <es at ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
>> Just a follow up note to say thanks to everyone for the excellent
>> feedback yesterday. If anyone has more ideas, please continue to add
>> to this thread. I'm in the process of collating the brainstorming into
>> a more structured review of visitor types and will have further
>> questions this week.
>
> Seems like we've completely left out social and professional aspect.
> Besides developers, scientists and students, python.org is visited by
> - designers, government folks, consultants, home users, engineers,
> media folks, people from financial sphere, network administrators,
> lawyers, military professions, office workers.
>
> Social are gender - men and women. Age - 10 to 70 (it would be
> actually interesting to read an interview with the oldest Python
> user).
>
> Bounce ratio - how many users find site interesting. There 2 kind of
> site users - returning and new. Majority of new site users don't know
> anything about p.o site at all. However, the majority of site users
> are returning.
>
> Age groups can be analyzed also by view and experience. I suppose that
> in age group of 30 and up there are usually people with vast
> development experience and conservative views. In group under 30
> there are people who monitor what's going on in Internet and know
> recent trends. Group under 23 are active Internet users who know or
> have accounts in about almost every modern Internet service, but do
> not have development experience to see how these services works. There
> is a strong correlation between age and amount of new things people
> aware of/tried. It is because more experienced developers are more
> busy with work, they often have children and a lot of errands to run,
> hence almost no time. So, 90% of Python Developers category are also
> "people with no time". =)
> --
> anatoly t.
>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed May  5 22:29:36 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 23:29:36 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <w2rd72a15511005050919r429e8ad8h286886eb6a749c96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<g2vd72a15511005031854o8715c43co49798ff9707b64ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com>
	<w2rd72a15511005050919r429e8ad8h286886eb6a749c96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <v2ld34314101005051329s50f016cdk877ce3c0dccdb0b3@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Ethan Schoonover <es at ethanschoonover.com> wrote:
> When you are speaking of age, sex and other demographic breakdowns,
> I'm curious if there have been any actual studies of demographics on
> the site? Or is this more anecdotal? Not to discount anecdote... it
> may end up being our best internal data available (for better or
> worse).

It is brainstorming, so these are just assumptions. I doubt it is
possible to gather correct data or validate it, because most people on
Internet have no reasons to be honest. I would say it is quite the
opposite. In any case people like th? man who listens more rather than
the one that makes their autopsy. =) I mean that processing direct
feedback from users about what they dislike about Python community
would be more effective than trying to guess that. But it is still fun
to think about something not that technical.

> Also, regarding bounce rate, is this based on data or estimate?
> Nothing wrong with estimates as a first pass, but if there some data
> hiding around somewhere, I'm interested to uncover it as well.

We don't have Google Analytics counters, so it is more like a reason
to make a bet for some beer.
-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu May  6 00:46:38 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 01:46:38 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <v2ld34314101005051329s50f016cdk877ce3c0dccdb0b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com> <4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com>
	<4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com>
	<q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com>
	<x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com>
	<w2rd72a15511005050919r429e8ad8h286886eb6a749c96@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2ld34314101005051329s50f016cdk877ce3c0dccdb0b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <l2ud34314101005051546v6b1342cbl6ac9bd266b83c619@mail.gmail.com>

And also "users" who learn Python in advance to win second Cold War.
https://software.sandia.gov/trac/pyutilib
http://www.google.com/search?q=LHC+python

-- 
anatoly t.

From es at ethanschoonover.com  Thu May  6 01:32:01 2010
From: es at ethanschoonover.com (Ethan Schoonover)
Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 16:32:01 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] User Profiles
In-Reply-To: <v2ld34314101005051329s50f016cdk877ce3c0dccdb0b3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <v2ud72a15511005031536taa739c7ew44acc750a13ff4fa@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100504045259.GA28919@panix.com>
	<4BDFFBCF.6060304@holdenweb.com> <4BDFFC56.3060208@python.org>
	<w2qd34314101005040833j15c779d0zf2512b82a2c26638@mail.gmail.com>
	<v2id34314101005040848h8226eb44y6f098885c811ea9c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<q2td72a15511005041530x461b6f95r5143ecd6927a464c@mail.gmail.com> 
	<x2zd34314101005050033l43a25465ub9223e4f39785436@mail.gmail.com> 
	<w2rd72a15511005050919r429e8ad8h286886eb6a749c96@mail.gmail.com> 
	<v2ld34314101005051329s50f016cdk877ce3c0dccdb0b3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p2xd72a15511005051632ye1f305e3h86c2805720a81c88@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 13:29, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> We don't have Google Analytics counters, so it is more like a reason
> to make a bet for some beer.

I'm good for a pint when we meet up... ;)

Good stuff Anatoly, I'm compiling everything now. Thanks again.

-e


Ethan Schoonover

es at ethanschoonover.com
+1-206-569-5463
http://ethanschoonover.com

From mfoord at python.org  Sat May  8 17:18:49 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 17:18:49 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Suggestion for additional Screen Style
Message-ID: <4BE580D9.90604@python.org>

Suggestion from a website user.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Suggestion for additional Screen Style
Date: 	Sat, 8 May 2010 10:48:45 -0400
From: 	John Nelson <jbn at abreka.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



Hello,

As with my Python code, I prefer to view web pages unmaximized. I 
typically have relevant docs open in a browser window to the left of my 
code editor. It would be nice to have a [linearise] style option in the 
PEPs that would either remove the left navigation or place content 
immediately under it. I'd like to reclaim the wide left gutter for perusal.

(More precisely, I would like to not press Web Developer > Display by 
Media Type > Print; CTRL++; every time.)

Thanks for your consideration,
John B Nelson

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20100508/159349cd/attachment.html>

From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Tue May 11 20:53:17 2010
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:53:17 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Suggestion for additional Screen Style
In-Reply-To: <4BE580D9.90604@python.org>
References: <4BE580D9.90604@python.org>
Message-ID: <20100511185317.D37D1209520@kimball.webabinitio.net>

On Sat, 08 May 2010 17:18:49 +0200, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
> Suggestion from a website user.
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	Suggestion for additional Screen Style
> Date: 	Sat, 8 May 2010 10:48:45 -0400
> From: 	John Nelson <jbn at abreka.com>
> To: 	webmaster at python.org
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> As with my Python code, I prefer to view web pages unmaximized. I 
> typically have relevant docs open in a browser window to the left of my 
> code editor. It would be nice to have a [linearise] style option in the 
> PEPs that would either remove the left navigation or place content 
> immediately under it. I'd like to reclaim the wide left gutter for perusal.
> 
> (More precisely, I would like to not press Web Developer > Display by 
> Media Type > Print; CTRL++; every time.)

Presumably this should actually go to docs at python.org, and in fact Ezio
already has a patch in one tracker or the other (I forget if it is ours or
Sphinx's) to make the left menu collapsible via javascript.

--
R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com

From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Wed May 19 17:17:17 2010
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 08:17:17 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Missing Python RISC OS port
Message-ID: <20100519151716.GD19429@panix.com>

I'm +0 on this -- but someone else needs to do the work.

----- Forwarded message from "Silas S. Brown" <ssb22 at cam.ac.uk> -----

> Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:50:32 +0100
> From: "Silas S. Brown" <ssb22 at cam.ac.uk>
> To: webmaster at python.org
> Cc: dietmar at schwertberger.de, dietmar1 at schwertberger.de,
> 	dietmar2 at schwertberger.de
> Subject: Missing Python RISC OS port
> 
> Dear Python maintainers,
> 
> http://www.python.org/download/other says
> that RISC OS binaries for Python are
> maintained by Dietmar Schwertberger at
> www.schwertberger.de. That site redirects
> to freenet-homepage.de/schwertberger or
> people.freenet.de/schwertberger/ , and
> it seems that this has lapsed (it takes
> you to a generic "domains available" page).
> Additionally, it is not possible to compile
> Python from source without a patched version
> of the DLK library which was on Schwertberger's page.
> 
> Eventually, I found the binaries at
> http://web.archive.org/web/20071223061900/http://python.acorn.de/
> Would it be possible to retrieve these and
> save them on python.org so they don't disappear?
> 
> I know the number of people using this port is now low,
> but when somebody does need it they really need it.
> (For example I've lost the copy that was on my hard
> drive and need to re-download.)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Silas
> 
> -- 
> Silas S Brown http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/ssb22

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n nx prgrmmng.

From mfoord at python.org  Wed May 19 20:07:00 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 19:07:00 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Suggestion for additional Screen Style
In-Reply-To: <20100511185317.D37D1209520@kimball.webabinitio.net>
References: <4BE580D9.90604@python.org>
	<20100511185317.D37D1209520@kimball.webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <4BF428C4.7050405@python.org>

On 11/05/2010 19:53, R. David Murray wrote:
> On Sat, 08 May 2010 17:18:49 +0200, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>    
>> Suggestion from a website user.
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: 	Suggestion for additional Screen Style
>> Date: 	Sat, 8 May 2010 10:48:45 -0400
>> From: 	John Nelson<jbn at abreka.com>
>> To: 	webmaster at python.org
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As with my Python code, I prefer to view web pages unmaximized. I
>> typically have relevant docs open in a browser window to the left of my
>> code editor. It would be nice to have a [linearise] style option in the
>> PEPs that would either remove the left navigation or place content
>> immediately under it. I'd like to reclaim the wide left gutter for perusal.
>>
>> (More precisely, I would like to not press Web Developer>  Display by
>> Media Type>  Print; CTRL++; every time.)
>>      
> Presumably this should actually go to docs at python.org,

Catching up with my email after a break. Did you forward this to 
docs at python.org David?

Michael

>   and in fact Ezio
> already has a patch in one tracker or the other (I forget if it is ours or
> Sphinx's) to make the left menu collapsible via javascript.
>
> --
> R. David Murray                                      www.bitdance.com
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Thu May 20 17:17:06 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 11:17:06 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
Message-ID: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

The contributor forms at http://localhost:8005/psf/contrib/ linked to
http://opensource-definition.org/ for the texts of the Academic Free
License 2.1 and Apache License 2.0 texts.  

opensource-definition.org has been domain-squatted and now shows
generic links.

I've updated the links on python.org.  The Apache 2.0 license was easy
to find, but the AFL 2.1 was difficult; I ended up linking to
http://www.samurajdata.se/opensource/mirror/licenses/afl-2.1.php,
which is an obsolete mirror of opensource.org.  This is because the
current AFL version is 3.0 and 2.1 is therefore obsolete.

Question: should I add a copy of the AFL 2.1 to python.org?  Or does
the PSF want to update the contrib forms to use AFL 3.0 instead?

--amk


From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu May 20 19:25:57 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:25:57 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <4BF570A5.8080607@v.loewis.de>


> Question: should I add a copy of the AFL 2.1 to python.org?  Or does
> the PSF want to update the contrib forms to use AFL 3.0 instead?

We should update the recommend version for contributor agreements to 3.0.

Regards,
Martin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu May 20 20:47:33 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 21:47:33 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>

What is the trend about AFL?
Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
-- 
anatoly t.



On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:17 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> The contributor forms at http://localhost:8005/psf/contrib/ linked to
> http://opensource-definition.org/ for the texts of the Academic Free
> License 2.1 and Apache License 2.0 texts.
>
> opensource-definition.org has been domain-squatted and now shows
> generic links.
>
> I've updated the links on python.org. ?The Apache 2.0 license was easy
> to find, but the AFL 2.1 was difficult; I ended up linking to
> http://www.samurajdata.se/opensource/mirror/licenses/afl-2.1.php,
> which is an obsolete mirror of opensource.org. ?This is because the
> current AFL version is 3.0 and 2.1 is therefore obsolete.
>
> Question: should I add a copy of the AFL 2.1 to python.org? ?Or does
> the PSF want to update the contrib forms to use AFL 3.0 instead?
>
> --amk
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>

From mfoord at python.org  Thu May 20 20:53:16 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:53:16 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5851C.60003@python.org>

On 20/05/2010 19:47, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> What is the trend about AFL?
> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>    
Sure, but the way it works is that contributors license their work to 
the PSF under an open source license first - and the PSF license is a 
terrible license that comes about through the horrors of the Python 
intellectual property history. We get contributors to license their 
contributions under more sensible licenses like the Academic free 
license or the apache license.

See:

     http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/

Heh, we should *probably* do the same for major contributions to the 
website as well...

Michael

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From amk at amk.ca  Thu May 20 21:22:48 2010
From: amk at amk.ca (A.M. Kuchling)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:22:48 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100520192248.GA6758@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> What is the trend about AFL?
> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?

Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
copyright.

But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?

They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
the license on it to be the PSF license.  The PSF license doesn't
actually say re-licensing is allowed.  The Apache 2.0 and Academic
Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
contributors need to pick one of them.

--amk

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu May 20 22:53:53 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 23:53:53 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for AFL
	v2.1)
Message-ID: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> What is the trend about AFL?
>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>
> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
> copyright.
>
> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?

Isn't it a common sense assumption that if you want contribution to be
the part of this particular software you agree that it will be
redistributed alike? If you want other terms - you need to say it
explicitly. I can only see a point when you want to take GPL code from
me and then make it Public Domain in the future. As in this case I may
refuse to contribute, you need to bind me as developer with obscure
license terms.

> They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
> the license on it to be the PSF license. ?The PSF license doesn't
> actually say re-licensing is allowed. ?The Apache 2.0 and Academic
> Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
> contributors need to pick one of them.

Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
Domain at all?
Why AFL?
Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
What about CC?
Was there some discussion about it?
Did you ask PSF contributors what license do they prefer (feel more
comfortable) to see core Python stuff in?
Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
simpler and allow contributions?
What PSF is afraid of in 2010 to maintain such complex license?
Can you specify in simple words what is required from developers and
record it as extension to some simple license like
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license?

Please do not give me links. I am not a lawyer and not an English
native, so I'd like to know the official point of PSF in developer's
language. I bet many have question about licensing and AFL in
particular, because I, for example, found AFL to be the most
contradicting license at all:

quoting Wikipedia (the license text is too complex for me):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Free_License
"""
AFL versions 1.2 and 2.1 are not compatible with the GNU GPL.[1]  The
Free Software Foundation does not consider version 3.0 to be
compatible with the GPL[1], though Eric S. Raymond (a co-founder of
the OSI) contends it is GPL compatible.[3]  In late 2002, an OSI
working draft considered it a "best practice" license.[4]  In mid
2006, however, the OSI's License Proliferation Committee found it
"redundant with more popular licenses"[2], specifically version 2 of
the Apache Software License.
"""

If "The mission of the foundation is to foster development of the
Python community" - it should listen to developers, or better allow
them freedom to use, exchange and contribute. Demanding or confusing
them only increases FUD factor with D standing for dissatisfaction.
Licensing preferences in general are often personal and demotivating,
unfortunately.
-- 
anatoly t.

From mfoord at python.org  Thu May 20 23:14:22 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 22:14:22 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
 AFL	v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5A62E.3090005@python.org>

On 20/05/2010 21:53, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling<amk at amk.ca>  wrote:
>    
>> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>      
>>> What is the trend about AFL?
>>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>>>        
>> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
>> copyright.
>>
>> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
>> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
>> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?
>>      
> Isn't it a common sense assumption that if you want contribution to be
> the part of this particular software you agree that it will be
> redistributed alike? If you want other terms - you need to say it
> explicitly. I can only see a point when you want to take GPL code from
> me and then make it Public Domain in the future. As in this case I may
> refuse to contribute, you need to bind me as developer with obscure
> license terms.
>
>    
The PSF needs the source code (the intellectual property) of Python to 
be secure. This means we need to *know* we have the legal right to 
distribute it. To ensure this the core developers (all committers) sign 
a contributor agreement explicitly licensing their contributions to the 
PSF under a choice of two licenses that the PSF lawyers determined gave 
the PSF the rights it needs to both redistribute and relicense the whole 
of the Python source code. If any developer isn't willing to license 
their contributions to the PSF under these well known and OSF recognised 
open source licenses then they are free to not contribute to Python, but 
that would be very odd - to want to contribute to an open source project 
but not be willing to license your contributions under a compatible open 
source license.

If you read the contributor agreement (which is not long or *overly* 
legally worded) then you will see that contributors still own their 
contributions and are free to relicense them under the GPL, declare them 
public domain, or sell them commercially if they so desire. This is why 
companies like google, canonical and Microsoft have been able to agree 
to and sign the PSF contributor agreements.

>> They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
>> the license on it to be the PSF license.  The PSF license doesn't
>> actually say re-licensing is allowed.  The Apache 2.0 and Academic
>> Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
>> contributors need to pick one of them.
>>      
> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
> Domain at all?
> Why AFL?
> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
> What about CC?
> Was there some discussion about it?
>    

It was decided by the PSF under the advice of their lawyers quite some 
time ago. Why do you care about this?

> Did you ask PSF contributors what license do they prefer (feel more
> comfortable) to see core Python stuff in?
>    

Python core stuff is under the PSF license. This has some rather odd 
terms as at various times parts of the source code have been owned by 
several commercial entities. That imposes certain restrictions about the 
license wording that the PSF is *able* (legally) to use. The only 
important thing is that the PSF license is a GPL compatible OSF 
recognised open source license allowing commercial and non-commercial 
redistribution.

> Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
> simpler and allow contributions?
>    

What are you talking about - the PSF license is the license that the 
Python source code is *distributed* under. It is very liberal, but has 
nothing to do with contributions to Python.
> What PSF is afraid of in 2010 to maintain such complex license?
> Can you specify in simple words what is required from developers and
> record it as extension to some simple license like
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license?
>
> Please do not give me links. I am not a lawyer and not an English
> native, so I'd like to know the official point of PSF in developer's
> language.

It is a restriction caused by the history of how Python was developed. 
The obscure wording of the PSF license does not affect what users are 
free to do with Python (beyond its specific licensing conditions) and 
isn't related to the question of how contributions are made because we 
don't use the PSF license for that.

> I bet many have question about licensing and AFL in
> particular, because I, for example, found AFL to be the most
> contradicting license at all:
>
>    
Anyone with questions is free to ask. I've rarely heard any questions 
though, it doesn't seem to be a problem in practise beyond the 
beauracracy of getting potential contributors to sign an agreement in 
the first place.

> quoting Wikipedia (the license text is too complex for me):
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Free_License
> """
> AFL versions 1.2 and 2.1 are not compatible with the GNU GPL.[1]  The
> Free Software Foundation does not consider version 3.0 to be
> compatible with the GPL[1], though Eric S. Raymond (a co-founder of
> the OSI) contends it is GPL compatible.[3]  In late 2002, an OSI
> working draft considered it a "best practice" license.[4]  In mid
> 2006, however, the OSI's License Proliferation Committee found it
> "redundant with more popular licenses"[2], specifically version 2 of
> the Apache Software License.
> """
>
> If "The mission of the foundation is to foster development of the
> Python community" - it should listen to developers, or better allow
> them freedom to use, exchange and contribute. Demanding or confusing
> them only increases FUD factor with D standing for dissatisfaction.
> Licensing preferences in general are often personal and demotivating,
> unfortunately.
>    
All those things are possible under the current licensing situation. If 
you really want to claim it is *actually* a problem you will have to 
explain how...

Michael Foord

-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu May 20 23:31:58 2010
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 23:31:58 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
 AFL	v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5AA4E.2040502@v.loewis.de>

> I am not a lawyer

So please stop acting as if you were one. Don't ask legal questions
whose answer you might not understand, anyway. Instead, trust us that
the procedures that we use actually *were* proposed by a lawyer, and
are legally appropriate.

Regards,
Martin

From georg at python.org  Fri May 21 03:30:00 2010
From: georg at python.org (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 03:30:00 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
 AFL	v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5E218.9070906@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Am 20.05.2010 22:53, schrieb anatoly techtonik:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>> What is the trend about AFL?
>>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>>
>> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
>> copyright.
>>
>> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
>> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
>> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?
> 
> Isn't it a common sense assumption that if you want contribution to be
> the part of this particular software you agree that it will be
> redistributed alike? If you want other terms - you need to say it
> explicitly. I can only see a point when you want to take GPL code from
> me and then make it Public Domain in the future. As in this case I may
> refuse to contribute, you need to bind me as developer with obscure
> license terms.

There's absolutely no "binding" involved.  Your code is always yours,
and you are free to license it in any other way.  *However*, since the code
you contribute to Python will be distributed under the Python license, the
PSF must be assured that it can do that, now and in the future.  This is
why you have to release it to *us* under a license that allows this act.

>> They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
>> the license on it to be the PSF license.  The PSF license doesn't
>> actually say re-licensing is allowed.  The Apache 2.0 and Academic
>> Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
>> contributors need to pick one of them.
> 
> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
> Domain at all?
> Why AFL?
> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
> What about CC?

[etc, etc.]

What *I* would really like to know is why you are asking all these questions,
esp. in a way that implies that we don't have satisfying answers.  Be assured
that we have, that they are mostly nontrivial (since legalese is involved),
and that until now I haven't heard of any potential contributor taking back
his contributions because he was uncomfortable with either initial license
offered.

Maybe we can discuss the issue again when your contribution form is due?

Georg
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From dgoodger at gmail.com  Fri May 21 05:07:13 2010
From: dgoodger at gmail.com (David Goodger)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 23:07:13 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <20100520192248.GA6758@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100520192248.GA6758@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikRIVovTCaGFLGh63mYG4_D9H3r6Q6zrkrMLDTW@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 3:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> What is the trend about AFL?
>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>
> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
> copyright.
>
> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?
>
> They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
> the license on it to be the PSF license. ?The PSF license doesn't
> actually say re-licensing is allowed. ?The Apache 2.0 and Academic
> Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
> contributors need to pick one of them.

I believe this is mistaken. Neither the Apache license nor the AFL
allow re-licensing. If they do, I can't see it -- please correct me if
I'm wrong on this.

It's the contributor agreement itself which allows the PSF to
re-license the contributions, nothing else.

IIRC (3rd-hand from Tim Peters' explanations, probably), the Apache
license and AFL were chosen for their patent grants.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From goodger at python.org  Fri May 21 05:22:41 2010
From: goodger at python.org (David Goodger)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 23:22:41 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
	AFL v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilp4YEsFc-HscY8A2gqw-0ZeXvgeu1hgYAJKDEf@mail.gmail.com>

In addition to what others have written, some pointed replies:

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 16:53, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:22 PM, A.M. Kuchling <amk at amk.ca> wrote:
>> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>> What is the trend about AFL?
>>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>>
>> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
>> copyright.
>>
>> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
>> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
>> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?
>
> Isn't it a common sense assumption that if you want contribution to be
> the part of this particular software you agree that it will be
> redistributed alike? If you want other terms - you need to say it
> explicitly.

It is explicit, in the contributor form. Go read it. Now, please,
before replying further.

> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
> Domain at all?

No, I believe that is mistaken, as I wrote elsewhere. It's the
contributor agreement that allows re-licensing.

> Why AFL?
> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?

I believe that was because of the patent grant clause that the AFL
has, as does the Apache license.

> What about CC?
> Was there some discussion about it?

There was a lot of discussion years ago, before the Creative Commons
existed. And most CC licenses are not appropriate for software anyhow.

> Did you ask PSF contributors what license do they prefer (feel more
> comfortable) to see core Python stuff in?
> Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
> simpler and allow contributions?
> What PSF is afraid of in 2010 to maintain such complex license?

There's an explanation of the history of the license, written in plain
English, in the license itself. Go read it.

> Can you specify in simple words what is required from developers and
> record it as extension to some simple license like
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license?

No, not without the agreement of all the rights-holders, some of whom
are unwilling to remove their layer from the license stack.

> Please do not give me links.

Please don't be a troll. Yes, you are being a troll.
Do your own research, or hire a lawyer to explain all this if it's
that important to you.
Stop wasting our time.

-- 
David Goodger <http://python.net/~goodger>

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri May 21 11:40:27 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:40:27 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
	AFL v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilp4YEsFc-HscY8A2gqw-0ZeXvgeu1hgYAJKDEf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTilp4YEsFc-HscY8A2gqw-0ZeXvgeu1hgYAJKDEf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinPZ7gUksBhgCDico6EHW6HQFpgFZ5BRkrqLM8q@mail.gmail.com>

Even after being accused in trolling I'll continue, because I really
want a FAQ on this.
>From my side I must apologize for accusing PSF that it doesn't do what
it should.
The last paragraph sounds strange, it is not really well thought to be
sent, and as a
result some people may have pissed off instead of answering reasonably.

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 6:22 AM, David Goodger <goodger at python.org> wrote:
> In addition to what others have written, some pointed replies:
>
>>> On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 09:47:33PM +0300, anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>>> What is the trend about AFL?
>>>> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?
>>>
>>> Yes, the PSF uses its own license for material where the PSF holds the
>>> copyright.
>>>
>>> But when a person signs a contributor form, which is saying "I grant
>>> the PSF the right to use my code/patch/whatever under some license",
>>> what license is the *person* -- not the PSF! -- using?
>>
>> Isn't it a common sense assumption that if you want contribution to be
>> the part of this particular software you agree that it will be
>> redistributed alike? If you want other terms - you need to say it
>> explicitly.
>
> It is explicit, in the contributor form. Go read it. Now, please,
> before replying further.

http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/contrib-form/
There won't be any question if contribution form didn't contain
confusing clauses that only AFL and Apache 2.0 licenses are accepted.
Correct me if I wrong, but even if my software is Apache 2.0 licensed,
I can not give PSF the right to "create and distribute collective
works and derivative works" "under any other open source license
approved by a unanimous vote of the PSF board" without consent of all
authors. And even Apache 2.0 allows that by default, you still need to
comply with its terms, like "4.1. You must give any other recipients
of the Work or Derivative Works a copy of this License;".

So, to make PSF actions legal towards contributions, you need either:
1. Comply to the terms of Apache 2.0 and AFL licenses (distribute
licenses with Python, retain copyright notices, carry prominent
notices about changes, etc.) - in this case you don't need any license
agreement at all.
2. Consent of all the authors that they agree to submit their work, so
that it will become PSF licensed - in this case license doesn't
matter.

So far I haven't found any Apache 2.0 text in my Python source
checkout. Is it because my checkout is partial and covers only Lib and
Doc or maybe Python code is not owned by PSF then? I assume that it is
because PSF follows path no.2, but also want to protect Python code
from patent claims. Why not just include it in agreement in clear text
and drop license stuff altogether?

>> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
>> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
>> Domain at all?
>
> No, I believe that is mistaken, as I wrote elsewhere. It's the
> contributor agreement that allows re-licensing.
>
>> Why AFL?
>> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
>
> I believe that was because of the patent grant clause that the AFL
> has, as does the Apache license.

So, as I said  - this can be mentioned explicitly in agreement itself.
Any other goals PSF is trying to achieve with these contributors'
agreements? Perhaps collecting some private data from open source
contributors?

>> What about CC?
>> Was there some discussion about it?
>
> There was a lot of discussion years ago, before the Creative Commons
> existed. And most CC licenses are not appropriate for software anyhow.

It would be nice to know why. The side effect of this approach is that
designers are perhaps not interested in joining Python community at
all - their work won't receive due attribution.

>> Did you ask PSF contributors what license do they prefer (feel more
>> comfortable) to see core Python stuff in?
>> Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
>> simpler and allow contributions?
>> What PSF is afraid of in 2010 to maintain such complex license?
>
> There's an explanation of the history of the license, written in plain
> English, in the license itself. Go read it.

Layman terms at http://www.python.org/psf/license/ sounds like it is a
2 clause BSD license, but BSD is 10 times smaller.

According to license, if I use any Python code from standard library
(or documentation), I need to:
1. include copyright "Copyright (c) 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005,
2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010
Python Software Foundation; All Rights Reserved"
2. include in any such work a brief summary of the changes made

This applies even to the example from documentation. But because
nobody does it, PSF License Agreement automatically terminates.
Therefore nobody is allowed to "to reproduce,
analyze, test, perform and/or display publicly, prepare derivative works,
distribute, and otherwise use Python alone or in any derivative version".

It looks like the License contradicts with common sense. Or at least I
should stop monitoring changes in Python standard library, because one
day I may want to copy paste some snippet to extend it in my app. I
used abc.py module from Python 2.6, because it was not present in 2.5.
Should I add PSF copyright to my Python app?

>> Can you specify in simple words what is required from developers and
>> record it as extension to some simple license like
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISC_license?
>
> No, not without the agreement of all the rights-holders, some of whom
> are unwilling to remove their layer from the license stack.

I am sure Python 3000 could use a different license at least for
standard library.
Can I ask PSF who are those right-holders, what proposals were made to
them and how did they argument their decision? Did they clearly
express their interests? Something makes me think that they just need
is a proper attribution and PSF could provide this in many ways to
reach an agreement on relicensing.

>> Please do not give me links.
>
> Please don't be a troll. Yes, you are being a troll.
> Do your own research, or hire a lawyer to explain all this if it's
> that important to you.
> Stop wasting our time.

You don't want to waste your time to explain PSF license terms to
community members? Or anybody asking for clarification automatically
becomes a troll and is not accounted as a part of community? Would PSF
accept a donation from me to make this research?
If it should not be that important for me - why do you demand me to
sign a contributor's agreement?


Do not get me wrong. I like Python and want it to become better, like
everybody else here. But there are plenty of new and more attractive
languages for newcomers out there. Language features, clean docs, site
design, pictures, polished community services are as equally important
as understanding legal implications in this respect.
-- 
anatoly t.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Fri May 21 12:36:10 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:36:10 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
	AFL v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <4BF5A62E.3090005@python.org>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BF5A62E.3090005@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTincqtvY-EGa8lYeCWkDb7A1GBuSjSOAF3Ldu61U@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Michael Foord <mfoord at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
>> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
>> Domain at all?
>> Why AFL?
>> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
>> What about CC?
>> Was there some discussion about it?
>>
>
> It was decided by the PSF under the advice of their lawyers quite some time
> ago. Why do you care about this?

I was going to dedicate my time to enhance some of pydotorg services.
I would like to contribute them under the terms of WTFPL license. From
the other side it would be nice (but I do not demand it) to borrow
bugfixes from other contributors back, because I will save time for
rewriting this stuff for other installations. But I was totally
confused by the terms of APL and difference between versions, and
differences between Apache 2.0, and PSF license, and the necessity to
sign contributors' agreement, send it by mail (yes, real world
"postal" mail), perhaps pay a lawyer to validate it? Because everybody
can mail you my form. Perhaps I also do not want to disclose my
personal details to any of PSF corporation members (of course, because
I am a troll). I would like to sign electronic form with my email
account. In the end I am the owner, I make all contributions from this
account, so the only freedom I gain from signing a contributors'
agreement is that if my account is hacked you can immediately send an
order to jail me. So, why my email is not enough to sign an agreement?

>> Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
>> simpler and allow contributions?
>>
>
> What are you talking about - the PSF license is the license that the Python
> source code is *distributed* under. It is very liberal, but has nothing to
> do with contributions to Python.

I need to sign contributor's agreement to dedicate my code to PSF, but
if I want bugfixes back into my code/library, PSF license seems to
directly affect it.

> Anyone with questions is free to ask. I've rarely heard any questions
> though, it doesn't seem to be a problem in practise beyond the beauracracy
> of getting potential contributors to sign an agreement in the first place.

And how many potential contributors were, ahem, pissed off by this requirement?

> All those things are possible under the current licensing situation. If you
> really want to claim it is *actually* a problem you will have to explain
> how...

Suggestion to drop AFL and Apache 2.0 licenses and leave only
agreement sent with other reply.

> Michael Foord
>
> --
> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>
> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of
> your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
> any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
> shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
> non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have
> entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
> assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
> privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me
> from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.

I release you. Amen.
-- 
anatoly.

From mfoord at python.org  Fri May 21 13:17:55 2010
From: mfoord at python.org (Michael Foord)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:17:55 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
 AFL v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTincqtvY-EGa8lYeCWkDb7A1GBuSjSOAF3Ldu61U@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>	
	<4BF5A62E.3090005@python.org>
	<AANLkTincqtvY-EGa8lYeCWkDb7A1GBuSjSOAF3Ldu61U@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF66BE3.6050902@python.org>

On 21/05/2010 11:36, anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 12:14 AM, Michael Foord<mfoord at python.org>  wrote:
>    
>>> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
>>> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
>>> Domain at all?
>>> Why AFL?
>>> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
>>> What about CC?
>>> Was there some discussion about it?
>>>
>>>        
>> It was decided by the PSF under the advice of their lawyers quite some time
>> ago. Why do you care about this?
>>      
> I was going to dedicate my time to enhance some of pydotorg services.
>    

We have been discussing contributions to Python itself - as far as I 
know we don't have a system in place for licensing contributions to 
pydotorg services, although we probably should.

> I would like to contribute them under the terms of WTFPL license.

Why do you want to control what license you contribute under? No large 
open source project that I am aware of allows that, for sensible reasons 
related to intellectual property protection that have been explained to you.

> From
> the other side it would be nice (but I do not demand it) to borrow
> bugfixes from other contributors back, because I will save time for
> rewriting this stuff for other installations. But I was totally
> confused by the terms of APL and difference between versions, and
> differences between Apache 2.0, and PSF license, and the necessity to
> sign contributors' agreement, send it by mail (yes, real world
> "postal" mail), perhaps pay a lawyer to validate it? Because everybody
> can mail you my form.

You are *still* fundamentally misunderstanding. There is a big 
difference between the license that contributions *to the PSF* are made 
under (which does not affect you) and the license that Python itself 
(not necessarily or specifically "pydotorg services" whatever they may 
be) are available under. Please understand this difference before 
continuing the discussion.

> Perhaps I also do not want to disclose my
> personal details to any of PSF corporation members

If you don't trust the PSF then you probably *shouldn't* contribute. 
That is pretty fundamental I'm afraid.

> (of course, because
> I am a troll). I would like to sign electronic form with my email
> account. In the end I am the owner, I make all contributions from this
> account, so the only freedom I gain from signing a contributors'
> agreement is that if my account is hacked you can immediately send an
> order to jail me. So, why my email is not enough to sign an agreement?
>
>    
>>> Why PSF can't change license PSF License 2 to PSF License 3 that is
>>> simpler and allow contributions?
>>>
>>>        
>> What are you talking about - the PSF license is the license that the Python
>> source code is *distributed* under. It is very liberal, but has nothing to
>> do with contributions to Python.
>>      
> I need to sign contributor's agreement to dedicate my code to PSF, but
> if I want bugfixes back into my code/library, PSF license seems to
> directly affect it.
>
>    

Nope - incorrect. (You really need to *read* the agreement otherwise you 
will continue to waste people's time.) Licensing your contributions to 
the PSF does *not* affect whatever else you may choose to do with your code.

>> Anyone with questions is free to ask. I've rarely heard any questions
>> though, it doesn't seem to be a problem in practise beyond the beauracracy
>> of getting potential contributors to sign an agreement in the first place.
>>      
> And how many potential contributors were, ahem, pissed off by this requirement?
>
>    

None as far as I know - possibly one including you.

>> All those things are possible under the current licensing situation. If you
>> really want to claim it is *actually* a problem you will have to explain
>> how...
>>      
> Suggestion to drop AFL and Apache 2.0 licenses and leave only
> agreement sent with other reply.
>
>    

You still haven't shown how the current situation is actually a problem.

Michael Foord
>> Michael Foord
>>
>> --
>> http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
>> http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog
>>
>> READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of
>> your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from
>> any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service,
>> shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure,
>> non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have
>> entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and
>> assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and
>> privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me
>> from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.
>>      
> I release you. Amen.
>    


-- 
http://www.ironpythoninaction.com/
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/blog

READ CAREFULLY. By accepting and reading this email you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies (?BOGUS AGREEMENTS?) that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges. You further represent that you have the authority to release me from any BOGUS AGREEMENTS on behalf of your employer.



From webmaster at python.org  Wed May 19 21:06:46 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:06:46 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Finding mailing lists on web site
Message-ID: <4BF436C6.4070708@python.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Finding mailing lists on web site
Date: 	Sun, 16 May 2010 18:57:06 -0700
From: 	Monte Milanuk <memilanuk at gmail.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



Hello,

Recently I was trying to find the python-tutor mailing list page to
recommend it to someone in a forum... I went to python.org and started
looking for the mailing lists list.  I looked several places, including
under 'Community'... nothing obvious jumped out at me.  I tried the
'Special Interest Group' page... but no listing for 'tutor' there that I
could find.  I did a site search for 'tutor' and found the link to this
page...

http://www.python.org/community/lists/

for the Mailing Lists... and the notation on the page i.e. 'Community>
Mailing Lists' would imply that it *should* be found under the Community
page.

I went back and looked under 'Community' and there is nothing mentioning
'Mailing Lists' at all on this page:

http://www.python.org/community/

In fact, the expanded navigation menu for 'Community' when viewed from
this page is about half the length of what is visible on the other page.

Perhaps some navigation menus got messed up or something?

HTH,

Monte

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From guido at python.org  Thu May 20 21:56:46 2010
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:56:46 -0700
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net> 
	<AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil8ejVmywD9lmp_JMOsnNl48_o1f7M624JWizbB@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 11:47 AM, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the trend about AFL?

I don't know, but I expect it's not hugely popular yet. I have no idea
what the differences between 3.0 and 2.1 are.

> Isn't PSF the official license of all Python stuff?

That is the license under which the PSF licenses everything to 3rd
parties. There are a number of reasons why we don't recommend others
use this license; there are also a number of reasons why we can't
change the license the PSF itself uses. So we want others to license
their stuff to the Python using a more generally accepted license.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)

From sdeibel at wingware.com  Thu May 20 23:10:30 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:10:30 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Licensing contributions (Was: Vanished link for
 AFL	v2.1)
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTilS8AnhBi3A2F_gYIUXO2rd3GlbujKvvTzJM4R6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF5A546.3030400@wingware.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> They need to use a license that lets the PSF take the code and change
>> the license on it to be the PSF license.  The PSF license doesn't
>> actually say re-licensing is allowed.  The Apache 2.0 and Academic
>> Free licenses both explicitly allow re-licensing, so that's why
>> contributors need to pick one of them.
>>     
>
> Does the sentence that Apache 2.0 explicitly allow re-licensing really
> mean that I can drop it or replace with GPL, MIT or put in Public
> Domain at all?
>   

No, the contributor agreement is what adds the right to relicense.  
Obviously you can't just drop a license willy nilly.  That would make 
the whole thing rather pointless, no? ;-)

> Why AFL?
> Why MIT or BSD is inappropriate?
> What about CC?
> Was there some discussion about it?
>   

Yes, extensive review by lawyers.  The initial license was chosen based 
on analysis of how good a legal foundation they made for the 
transaction.  The rights that come to the PSF are those in that license 
+ what the contributor agreement grants.

- Stephan


From sdeibel at wingware.com  Fri May 21 15:38:07 2010
From: sdeibel at wingware.com (Stephan Deibel)
Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 09:38:07 -0400
Subject: [pydotorg-www] [PSF-Board]  Vanished link for AFL v2.1
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTil8ejVmywD9lmp_JMOsnNl48_o1f7M624JWizbB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100520151706.GA4763@amk-desktop.matrixgroup.net>
	<AANLkTimhltoBtQrwnOqVrhOKos0h9Vv9plVqvg7ZZn9M@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTil8ejVmywD9lmp_JMOsnNl48_o1f7M624JWizbB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BF68CBF.6090802@wingware.com>

Guido van Rossum wrote:
> That is the license under which the PSF licenses everything to 3rd
> parties. There are a number of reasons why we don't recommend others
> use this license; there are also a number of reasons why we can't
> change the license the PSF itself uses.

I'll just add to this some history:  We certainly tried to get rid of 
some of the license stack in the PSF license but it's at least difficult 
and more likely hopeless.  Some of the entities involved no longer exist 
and it's not clear where their copyright ownership rights went.  This 
means we're stuck with the licenses under which we received the various 
parts of Python and cannot ask the copyright holder(s) to relicense it 
to us under a different license.

Actually, the way to get rid of some of the stack is to completely 
rewrite the code covered by those portions.  Maybe that would eventually 
happen, although it would take some doing to be sure the old code is 
really gone.  It's just much safer and easier not to try this.

Anatoly, I hope you've figured out the differences between copyright 
ownership and licensing from the other responses.  Copyright ownership 
is the sudo of intellectual property.  You can't do everything but you 
can do a lot.  Also, contributing to the PSF does not mean giving up 
your copyright ownership.  I got the impression maybe these things were 
at the core of your objections/questions/concerns.

I do feel like this is all made clear on 
http://www.python.org/psf/contrib/ -- if not suggestions for improving 
that would certainly be constructive.

- Stephan



From webmaster at python.org  Sun May 23 20:25:02 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 19:25:02 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Mercurial mirros
Message-ID: <4BF972FE.8040508@python.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Mercurial mirros
Date: 	Sun, 23 May 2010 19:50:03 +0200
From: 	Andrej Krpic <akrpic77 at gmail.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



hello,

I believe "Mercurial mirros" link on http://www.python.org/dev/, which 
points to http://hg.python.org/
should point to http://code.python.org/hg

-Andrej


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From webmaster at python.org  Tue May 25 01:21:07 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:21:07 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Differences between Python 2.x vs 3.x releases?
Message-ID: <4BFB09E3.4060202@python.org>

Should we have an explanation of the differences between Python 2 and 
Python 3 prominently linked to from the front page - or perhaps from the 
Python 2 / 3 download pages?

Currently python.org is not a useful place to visit if you want to know 
the difference or which you should download... :-)

Michael

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Differences between Python 2.x vs 3.x releases?
Date: 	Tue, 25 May 2010 02:08:59 +0300
From: 	Shimmy Weitzhandler <weitzhandler at gmail.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



I was trying to find an answer to this 
<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2900929/python-2-x-vs-3-x-releases> question 
on the Python website, but I didn't manage to it.
I think it should be stated, or at list a redirection-link for beginners 
who don't know.
Best regards,
Shimmy
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue May 25 22:03:46 2010
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:03:46 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Differences between Python 2.x vs 3.x
	releases?
In-Reply-To: <4BFB09E3.4060202@python.org>
References: <4BFB09E3.4060202@python.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimz7gEZOkSfqqu3bpL0lhZHE3IX3GYv3Bn31UKF@mail.gmail.com>

Good idea, but it may become lost.
-- 
anatoly t.


On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 2:21 AM, <webmaster at python.org> wrote:

>  Should we have an explanation of the differences between Python 2 and
> Python 3 prominently linked to from the front page - or perhaps from the
> Python 2 / 3 download pages?
>
> Currently python.org is not a useful place to visit if you want to know
> the difference or which you should download... :-)
>
> Michael
>
> -------- Original Message --------  Subject: Differences between Python
> 2.x vs 3.x releases?  Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 02:08:59 +0300  From: Shimmy
> Weitzhandler <weitzhandler at gmail.com> <weitzhandler at gmail.com>  To:
> webmaster at python.org
>
>  I was trying to find an answer to this<http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2900929/python-2-x-vs-3-x-releases> question
> on the Python website, but I didn't manage to it.
> I think it should be stated, or at list a redirection-link for beginners
> who don't know.
>
> Best regards,
> Shimmy
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
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From webmaster at python.org  Wed May 26 16:43:28 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:43:28 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: broken link
Message-ID: <4BFD3390.4010308@python.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	broken link
Date: 	Wed, 26 May 2010 09:42:33 -0500
From: 	Daniel Stutzbach <daniel at stutzbachenterprises.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org, webmaster at pythonology.org



I was just browsing through some of the Python Success stories and I 
noticed that the website for "DevNet: A web-based RSS aggregator 
developed in Python" no longer appears to exist.  You might want to 
remove the story, or just remove the broken links.  There's one link at 
the top of the story, and another on the author's name at the bottom.

Just thought you'd like to know,
--
Daniel Stutzbach, Ph.D.
President, Stutzbach Enterprises, LLC <http://stutzbachenterprises.com>
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From webmaster at python.org  Thu May 27 11:55:51 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 10:55:51 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Factual Error re wx
Message-ID: <4BFE41A7.6000806@python.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Factual Error re wx
Date: 	Thu, 27 May 2010 09:31:18 +0100
From: 	Gadget Steve (HM) <GadgetSteve at hotmail.com>
To: 	<webmaster at python.org>



At http://www.python.org/doc/faq/gui/#id4 the FAQ read:

wxWindows is a portable GUI class library written in C++ that's a 
portable interface to various platform-specific libraries; wxWidgets is 
a Python interface to wxWindows. wxWindows supports Windows and MacOS; 
on Unix variants, it supports both GTk+ and Motif toolkits. wxWindows 
preserves the look and feel of the underlying graphics toolkit, and 
there is quite a rich widget set and collection of GDI classes. See the 
wxWindows page <http://www.wxwindows.org/> for more details.

wxWidgets <http://wxwidgets.org/> is an extension module that wraps many 
of the wxWindows C++ classes, and is quickly gaining popularity amongst 
Python developers. You can get wxWidgets as part of the source or CVS 
distribution of wxWindows, or directly from its home page.

The name wxWindows has been retired, (I think it was causing some hassle 
with MicroSnot), I think that above should read something like:

wxWidgets, (http://www.wxwidgets.org) is a free, portable GUI class 
library written is C++ that provides a native look and feel on a number 
of platforms, with MS-Windows, MacOS-9/X, GTK, X11, Motif, WinCE, 
MGL, PalmOS & OS2 all listed as current stable targets.  It has language 
bindings available to a number of languages including C, C++, *Python*, 
Pearl, Ruby, etc.

wxPython, (http://www.wxpyton.org) is the python language binding for 
wxwidgets, while it often lags slightly behind the official wxWidgets 
releases it also offers a number of features, via pure python 
extensions, that are not yet available in other language bindings.  
There is an active user and developer community for wxPython.

Both wxWidgets and wxPython are free, open source, software with 
permissive licences that allow their use in commercial products as well 
as in freeware or shareware.

Gadget/Steve

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From webmaster at python.org  Fri May 28 10:03:28 2010
From: webmaster at python.org (webmaster at python.org)
Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:03:28 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Spelling Typo in EDU-SIG: Python in Education
	(Suprised -> Surprised)
Message-ID: <4BFF78D0.7000902@python.org>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Spelling Typo in EDU-SIG: Python in Education (Suprised -> 
Surprised)
Date: 	Thu, 27 May 2010 22:25:15 -0400
From: 	Titus Barik <titus at barik.net>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



Hello,

There is a typo on the following page:
http://www.python.org/community/sigs/current/edu-sig/

The word "suprised" should be spelled as "surprised". This is under the
section "Textbooks and other non-free books".

Thanks,

Titus

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