From carl at personnelware.com  Thu Dec  1 00:07:08 2011
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 17:07:08 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAHrZfZBpAyz9uZe9s8BtMmr+US06ocU6==9uLiYEi14odVmaJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:51 PM,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
> ? ?Richard> BTW why are bit.ly links disallowed in wiki pages? I definitely
> ? ?Richard> promote the j.mp URL these days over the bit.ly one but they're
> ? ?Richard> effectively the same (same company).
>
> It looks like Paul Boddie added added bit.ly, t.co and goo.gl as patterns in
> LocalBadContent back in October. ?His comment was
>
> ? ?Added some link-shorteners. These should never be used in this
> ? ?environment.

blacklisting them sounds reasonable to me.

They are not needed for legitimate use.
The content editor has (or can find) the real URL and use it.
The person following the link will just click.

If you allow them, spamers can use them at will and he whole
LocalBadContent thing is kinda pointless.


-- 
Carl K

From richard at python.org  Thu Dec  1 00:27:49 2011
From: richard at python.org (Richard Jones)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:27:49 +1100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAHrZfZBpAyz9uZe9s8BtMmr+US06ocU6==9uLiYEi14odVmaJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 December 2011 10:07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> They are not needed for legitimate use.

I respectfully disagree. It's significantly easier to promote:

   j.mp/mpug

than

   wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG


     Richard

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Dec  1 06:05:45 2011
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 06:05:45 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<CAHrZfZBpAyz9uZe9s8BtMmr+US06ocU6==9uLiYEi14odVmaJA@mail.gmail.com>	<20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>	<CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED70B29.6050809@v.loewis.de>

Am 01.12.2011 00:27, schrieb Richard Jones:
> On 1 December 2011 10:07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
>> They are not needed for legitimate use.
> 
> I respectfully disagree. It's significantly easier to promote:
> 
>    j.mp/mpug
> 
> than
> 
>    wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG

If you want to promote it, it doesn't need to be a hyperlink. IOW,
you can have a link whose text label is j.mp/mpug for promotional
purposes, yet has http://wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG as the
link target.

Regards,
Martin

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Thu Dec  1 01:38:23 2011
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 01:38:23 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112010138.23619.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Thursday 01 December 2011 00:27:49 Richard Jones wrote:
> On 1 December 2011 10:07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> > They are not needed for legitimate use.
>
> I respectfully disagree. It's significantly easier to promote:
>
>    j.mp/mpug
>
> than
>
>    wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG

That may be the case, but *on* the Wiki, there's absolutely no reason why 
people can't use full URLs referring to the actual resource in question (but 
see my remarks below). The reason why I disallowed shortened URLs is that 
it's easy for people to post spam links and there be absolutely no initial 
indication that this is what they are. I certainly don't feel like checking 
random links to who-knows-where just because people don't want to be 
transparent about where they are linking to.

I believe that such links primarily benefit spammers/scammers/tricksters (who 
don't want people to see where they are going) and people using Twitter (who 
are constrained by whichever architectural limitation that service still 
has), along with people needing to promote an easy-to-remember URL by word of 
mouth or on physical objects, potentially in that order. I accept that from 
trustworthy people like yourself, the promotional benefit outweighs the "I 
feel lucky" part of the experience that comes from using these URLs, but the 
balance is different when random people on the Internet are posting them to 
one's site.

It is unfortunate if people don't get a nice error message if their edits are 
disallowed, but I am willing to improve that (without telling spammers how to 
defeat anti-spam mechanisms) if it would be appreciated - the "internal 
server error" probably shouldn't happen, and that may be fixed somehow by a 
review of the configuration. If you think that trusted users shouldn't be 
prevented from using shortened URLs that are mentioned for promotional 
purposes, say, then I am also willing to work towards a solution.

This isn't empty rhetoric - I've already developed things like edit approval 
functionality for Moin, even though I doubt that it will ever be deployed 
because of cries of censorship or general inconvenience, just so that I have 
something to offer if/when people start to say that policing Wikis is too 
much work - so if you think that improvement is needed, I am prepared to 
spend some time making that improvement.

I am sorry for the inconvenience caused, but please understand the motivation 
for eliminating what could easily be a source of significant additional work 
for those of us who volunteer to maintain this resource.

Paul

P.S. I also find it interesting that a bunch of people happily used domains 
leased from a now-defunct North African regime (some of whom walked the 
tightrope more happily than others, though) without any second thought, but 
that's a separate concern. Personally, I never gave it much thought myself, 
but then I largely ignored what the Web 2.0 crowd were doing until someone in 
the Mercurial community raised the matter in the context of mailing list 
messages.

From techtonik at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 18:29:58 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 20:29:58 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAHrZfZBpAyz9uZe9s8BtMmr+US06ocU6==9uLiYEi14odVmaJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 2:27 AM, Richard Jones <richard at python.org> wrote:

> On 1 December 2011 10:07, Carl Karsten <carl at personnelware.com> wrote:
> > They are not needed for legitimate use.
>
> I respectfully disagree. It's significantly easier to promote:
>
>   j.mp/mpug
>
> than
>
>   wiki.python.org/moin/MelbournePUG


And it could be a little easier to type wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if
mysterious somebody could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.

-- 
anatoly t.
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From skip at pobox.com  Fri Dec  2 03:00:29 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 20:00:29 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAHrZfZBpAyz9uZe9s8BtMmr+US06ocU6==9uLiYEi14odVmaJA@mail.gmail.com>
	<20182.45942.28596.138180@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CADmzSShKBpL8Z+6TDU=U8Eh-z=UtFxokC_3hbkghtFV_QoAcFw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHrZfZBZP9BoWia=7M3_DjEN1BmtcxRMDaU1WpSBxu3Yf39ELw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
    anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.

There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and Jython
wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page briefly,
then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python wiki.

As a person who monitors both wikis (at least for spam postings, if not
actual content), I'm a little disappointed that I can no longer go to
wiki.python.org then select which wiki I want to dive into.

Skip

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Fri Dec  2 09:27:20 2011
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 09:27:20 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody anatoly> could adjust
> web-server configuration accordingly.
>
> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and Jython
> wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page briefly,
> then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python wiki.

Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it makes sense 
to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was changed. I must 
admit that I haven't been following this list for some time, so I'm sorry if 
I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.

> As a person who monitors both wikis (at least for spam postings, if not
> actual content), I'm a little disappointed that I can no longer go to
> wiki.python.org then select which wiki I want to dive into.

Doesn't wiki.jython.org direct you to the Jython Wiki?

Paul

From mal at egenix.com  Fri Dec  2 10:12:27 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 10:12:27 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4ED8967B.6080605@egenix.com>

Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody anatoly> could adjust
>> web-server configuration accordingly.
>>
>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and Jython
>> wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page briefly,
>> then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python wiki.
> 
> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it makes sense 
> to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was changed. I must 
> admit that I haven't been following this list for some time, so I'm sorry if 
> I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.

The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:

 * Python wiki
 * Jython  wiki
 * PSF wiki

and perhaps more.

>> As a person who monitors both wikis (at least for spam postings, if not
>> actual content), I'm a little disappointed that I can no longer go to
>> wiki.python.org then select which wiki I want to dive into.

Hmm, I still get the list (without the PSF wiki) as usual. Perhaps
the change was reverted ?

> Doesn't wiki.jython.org direct you to the Jython Wiki?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 02 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Fri Dec  2 10:55:35 2011
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 10:55:35 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <4ED8967B.6080605@egenix.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4ED8967B.6080605@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS0B=kp-S3+kbb1VQOSi9s=3ORwe7-Na_idqafpfP9HtcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>
> Paul Boddie wrote:
> > On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
> >>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
> >> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody anatoly> could
adjust
> >> web-server configuration accordingly.
> >>
> >> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
Jython
> >> wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page
briefly,
> >> then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python wiki.
> >
> > Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it makes
sense
> > to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was changed. I must
> > admit that I haven't been following this list for some time, so I'm
sorry if
> > I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>
> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>
>  * Python wiki
>  * Jython  wiki
>  * PSF wiki
>
> and perhaps more.

That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to make
the change.

> >> As a person who monitors both wikis (at least for spam postings, if not
> >> actual content), I'm a little disappointed that I can no longer go to
> >> wiki.python.org then select which wiki I want to dive into.
>
> Hmm, I still get the list (without the PSF wiki) as usual. Perhaps
> the change was reverted ?
>
> > Doesn't wiki.jython.org direct you to the Jython Wiki?
>
> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 02 2011)
> >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::
>
>
>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
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From mal at egenix.com  Fri Dec  2 11:07:51 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 11:07:51 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2VPS0B=kp-S3+kbb1VQOSi9s=3ORwe7-Na_idqafpfP9HtcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4ED8967B.6080605@egenix.com>
	<CAJ2VPS0B=kp-S3+kbb1VQOSi9s=3ORwe7-Na_idqafpfP9HtcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED8A377.5080900@egenix.com>

Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
> On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>
>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody anatoly> could
> adjust
>>>> web-server configuration accordingly.
>>>>
>>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
> Jython
>>>> wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page
> briefly,
>>>> then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python wiki.
>>>
>>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it makes
> sense
>>> to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was changed. I must
>>> admit that I haven't been following this list for some time, so I'm
> sorry if
>>> I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>>
>> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
>> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>>
>>  * Python wiki
>>  * Jython  wiki
>>  * PSF wiki
>>
>> and perhaps more.
> 
> That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
> exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to make
> the change.

Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 02 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Fri Dec  2 11:13:10 2011
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:13:10 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <4ED8A377.5080900@egenix.com>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4ED8967B.6080605@egenix.com>
	<CAJ2VPS0B=kp-S3+kbb1VQOSi9s=3ORwe7-Na_idqafpfP9HtcA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ED8A377.5080900@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS2Ap8xGTuYzLRq8qeBjMDPLtpnbvo8S+ycQ9-KUN9_buw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>
> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
> > On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Paul Boddie wrote:
> >>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
> >>>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
> >>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody anatoly> could
> > adjust
> >>>> web-server configuration accordingly.
> >>>>
> >>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
> > Jython
> >>>> wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector page
> > briefly,
> >>>> then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the Python
wiki.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it makes
> > sense
> >>> to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was changed. I
must
> >>> admit that I haven't been following this list for some time, so I'm
> > sorry if
> >>> I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
> >>
> >> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
> >> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
> >>
> >>  * Python wiki
> >>  * Jython  wiki
> >>  * PSF wiki
> >>
> >> and perhaps more.
> >
> > That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
> > exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to make
> > the change.
>
> Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?

It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
have a redirect from the old /moin url.

> --
> Marc-Andre Lemburg
> eGenix.com
>
> Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 02 2011)
> >>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
> >>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> ::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::
>
>
>   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
>    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
>           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
>               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
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From skip at pobox.com  Sat Dec  3 00:32:52 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 17:32:52 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Internal Server Error while reverting spam
In-Reply-To: <201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <20111130144114.7841F21093B4@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<CAPkN8x+1yZjZ6r9RZEuCM0ix46xV7tccTG2bLm1c7nOEaxFEGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20184.12605.7226.162410@montanaro.dyndns.org>
	<201112020927.20527.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <20185.24612.947191.651516@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Paul> Doesn't wiki.jython.org direct you to the Jython Wiki?

Indeed it does.  I didn't know it existed.

Thx,

Skip

From steve at holdenweb.com  Sun Dec  4 01:35:06 2011
From: steve at holdenweb.com (Steve Holden)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:35:06 -0800
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <20111126095224.GD25436@charite.de>
References: <000e0cdf15ec74b7e304b295ab66@google.com>
	<F9C1430F-B947-4776-8FA7-4227059F4E68@holdenweb.com>
	<20111126095224.GD25436@charite.de>
Message-ID: <C8D7E8D4-2517-45C2-AC6F-797FAD466296@holdenweb.com>

[definitely not urgent]

OK, how does this look? And if it looks OK, how come I'm still getting bounced at pythoncraft.com?

"""
Technical details of permanent failure: 
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 550 550 5.1.0 <steve at holdenweb.com>: Sender address rejected: User unknown in virtual alias table (state 14).
"""

regards
 Steve

(test2)AirHead:freetype-2.4.4 sholden$ dig @8.8.8.8 any holdenweb.com

; <<>> DiG 9.6-ESV-R4-P3 <<>> @8.8.8.8 any holdenweb.com
; (1 server found)
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 6226
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 11, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;holdenweb.com.			IN	ANY

;; ANSWER SECTION:
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	a.ns.zerigo.net.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	MX	10 alt2.aspmx.l.google.com.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	MX	10 alt1.aspmx.l.google.com.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	c.ns.zerigo.net.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	MX	10 aspmx.l.google.com.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	b.ns.zerigo.net.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	f.ns.zerigo.net.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	d.ns.zerigo.net.
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	A	174.120.139.138
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	SOA	a.ns.zerigo.net. hostmaster.zerigo.com. 1322302164 10800 3600 604800 900
holdenweb.com.		899	IN	NS	e.ns.zerigo.net.

;; Query time: 419 msec
;; SERVER: 8.8.8.8#53(8.8.8.8)
;; WHEN: Sat Dec  3 16:30:12 2011
;; MSG SIZE  rcvd: 283

On Nov 26, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

> * Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com>:
> 
>> Still happening. But when you read the error message that's not
>> surprising, because it seems to be an SMTP server setup issue.
>> pythoncraft.com's SMTP server's Postscript doesn't know who "aahz" is.
> 
> Yes, but the MX setup for holdenweb.com is also broken:
> 
> Host/Domain: holdenweb.com
> MX: aspmx.l.google.com(10)
> MX: alt2.aspmx.l.google.com(20)
> MX: alt1.aspmx.l.google.com(20)
> MX: asmpx3.googlemail.com(50)
> asmpx3.googlemail.com NXDOMAIN
> MX: asmpx5.googlemail.com(50)
> asmpx5.googlemail.com NXDOMAIN
> 
> Remove the two non existing MX records (NXDOMAIN)
> 
> 
>>>    aahz at pythoncraft.com
> 
> That one seems to work again.
> 
> -- 
> Ralf Hildebrandt
>  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
>  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
>  Campus Benjamin Franklin
>  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
>  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
>  ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de
> 	    

-- 
Steve Holden steve at holdenweb.com,  Holden Web, LLC http://holdenweb.com/
Python classes (and much more) through the web http://oreillyschool.com/



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From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Dec  4 10:45:07 2011
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 10:45:07 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <C8D7E8D4-2517-45C2-AC6F-797FAD466296@holdenweb.com>
References: <000e0cdf15ec74b7e304b295ab66@google.com>	<F9C1430F-B947-4776-8FA7-4227059F4E68@holdenweb.com>	<20111126095224.GD25436@charite.de>
	<C8D7E8D4-2517-45C2-AC6F-797FAD466296@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <4EDB4123.6030104@v.loewis.de>

> OK, how does this look? And if it looks OK, how come I'm still getting
> bounced at pythoncraft.com <http://pythoncraft.com>?
> 
> """
> Technical details of permanent failure: 
> Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the
> recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for
> further information about the cause of this error. The error that the
> other server returned was: 550 550 5.1.0 <steve at holdenweb.com
> <mailto:steve at holdenweb.com>>: Sender address rejected: User unknown in
> virtual alias table (state 14).
> """

I'm not a postfix expert, but my interpretation is that pythoncraft.com
tried to generate an automatic reply, and that this automatic reply
couldn't be sent because of a misconfiguration on pythoncraft.com.

I suggest that you follow the advise and contact pythoncraft.com's
postmaster.

Regards,
Martin

From Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de  Sun Dec  4 10:57:40 2011
From: Ralf.Hildebrandt at charite.de (Ralf Hildebrandt)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 10:57:40 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Delivery Status Notification (Failure)
In-Reply-To: <C8D7E8D4-2517-45C2-AC6F-797FAD466296@holdenweb.com>
References: <000e0cdf15ec74b7e304b295ab66@google.com>
	<F9C1430F-B947-4776-8FA7-4227059F4E68@holdenweb.com>
	<20111126095224.GD25436@charite.de>
	<C8D7E8D4-2517-45C2-AC6F-797FAD466296@holdenweb.com>
Message-ID: <20111204095740.GB20872@charite.de>

* Steve Holden <steve at holdenweb.com>:
> [definitely not urgent]
> 
> OK, how does this look? And if it looks OK, how come I'm still getting bounced at pythoncraft.com?
> 
> """ Technical details of permanent failure: Google tried to deliver
> your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend
> contacting the other email provider for further information about the
> cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 550
> 550 5.1.0 <steve at holdenweb.com>: Sender address rejected: User unknown
> in virtual alias table (state 14). """

This looks like the recipient domain does sender address verification
and the mailserver for the sender reported "User unknown in virtual
alias table" (and maybe that data is old, but cached)

steve at holdenweb.com is definitely  being valid ( :) ) and (I just
tested this) being accepted by every MX host. 

Thus I'm assuming that the MXes for pythoncraft.com (which are using
postfix) cached the negative  verification result. The default
settings are:

address_verify_negative_cache = yes
address_verify_negative_expire_time = 3d
address_verify_negative_refresh_time = 3h

Meaning that it may take up to 3 days for the wrong data to expire.
How old is that report (I took the weekend off :) )

-- 
Ralf Hildebrandt
  Gesch?ftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk
  Charit? - Universit?tsmedizin Berlin
  Campus Benjamin Franklin
  Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin
  Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962
  ralf.hildebrandt at charite.de | http://www.charite.de
	    

From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Sat Dec 10 21:06:44 2011
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 20:06:44 +0000
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Python 3 Poll
In-Reply-To: <CAHUNo3tkHr_ET1Cac-KTbLkQkUUTgNW3D-DRxreC-t5q-7o1UA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHUNo3tkHr_ET1Cac-KTbLkQkUUTgNW3D-DRxreC-t5q-7o1UA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE3BBD4.1050105@voidspace.org.uk>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Python 3 Poll
Date: 	Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:12:47 +0100
From: 	Joaquin Abian <gatoygata2 at gmail.com>
To: 	webmaster at python.org



Dear Sirs,

Python 3 Poll is contributing negatively to the perception of the status 
of py3k.

Many of the packages listed already have py3k versions available in 
windows (matplotlib, PIL, pygame, ipython, pyramid). Some are already 
official versions like ipython or pyramid, some are available as 
binaries in Gohlke repository.

It is really impresive the number of people you can find arguing that 
the fact preventing them to swicht to py3k is the lack of ports of 
libraries such as numpy, scipy and matplotlib... !! all of them with 
binary installers for py3k available months ago.

Is it possible to refresh the list or the interaction with people 
accesing the voting system to prevent people voting to already available 
libraries. Could be libraries removed from the list as soon as they 
become available ?

Thanks for your attention

Joaquin Abian
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From aahz at pythoncraft.com  Sat Dec 10 22:02:05 2011
From: aahz at pythoncraft.com (Aahz)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:02:05 -0800
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Python 3 Poll
Message-ID: <20111210210205.GB26910@panix.com>

Anyone know who's maintaining the poll?  If not, I'm going to remove it
from the front page.

----- Forwarded message from Joaquin Abian <gatoygata2 at gmail.com> -----

> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:12:47 +0100
> From: Joaquin Abian <gatoygata2 at gmail.com>
> To: webmaster at python.org
> Subject: Python 3 Poll
> 
> Dear Sirs,
> 
> Python 3 Poll is contributing negatively to the perception of the status of
> py3k.
> 
> Many of the packages listed already have py3k versions available in windows
> (matplotlib, PIL, pygame, ipython, pyramid). Some are already official
> versions like ipython or pyramid, some are available as binaries in Gohlke
> repository.
> 
> It is really impresive the number of people you can find arguing that the
> fact preventing them to swicht to py3k is the lack of ports of libraries
> such as numpy, scipy and matplotlib... !! all of them with binary
> installers for py3k available months ago.
> 
> Is it possible to refresh the list or the interaction with people accesing
> the voting system to prevent people voting to already available libraries.
> Could be libraries removed from the list as soon as they become available ?
> 
> Thanks for your attention
> 
> Joaquin Abian

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/

"....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan

From skip at pobox.com  Sat Dec 10 22:29:01 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:29:01 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Python 3 Poll
In-Reply-To: <20111210210205.GB26910@panix.com>
References: <20111210210205.GB26910@panix.com>
Message-ID: <CANc-5UwZJy=euhCzFvFpRc-5cuHDg07qf7gU-BQy_c02RZv20w@mail.gmail.com>

> Anyone know who's maintaining the poll? ?If not, I'm going to remove it
> from the front page.

Ideally, the best route would be to recognize which packages have already
been ported to Python 3, then when people ask for such packages, tell them,
"The authors of package X borrowed Guido's time machine.  It's already
available for Python 3.  Would you like to download Python 3 now?"

Skip

From noah at coderanger.net  Sat Dec 10 22:27:19 2011
From: noah at coderanger.net (Noah Kantrowitz)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:27:19 -0800
Subject: [pydotorg-www] FWD: Python 3 Poll
In-Reply-To: <20111210210205.GB26910@panix.com>
References: <20111210210205.GB26910@panix.com>
Message-ID: <891BFE5C-FAE3-4FAE-8F19-E750A2CF089C@coderanger.net>

I think that was Brett's baby.

--Noah

On Dec 10, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Aahz wrote:

> Anyone know who's maintaining the poll?  If not, I'm going to remove it
> from the front page.
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from Joaquin Abian <gatoygata2 at gmail.com> -----
> 
>> Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:12:47 +0100
>> From: Joaquin Abian <gatoygata2 at gmail.com>
>> To: webmaster at python.org
>> Subject: Python 3 Poll
>> 
>> Dear Sirs,
>> 
>> Python 3 Poll is contributing negatively to the perception of the status of
>> py3k.
>> 
>> Many of the packages listed already have py3k versions available in windows
>> (matplotlib, PIL, pygame, ipython, pyramid). Some are already official
>> versions like ipython or pyramid, some are available as binaries in Gohlke
>> repository.
>> 
>> It is really impresive the number of people you can find arguing that the
>> fact preventing them to swicht to py3k is the lack of ports of libraries
>> such as numpy, scipy and matplotlib... !! all of them with binary
>> installers for py3k available months ago.
>> 
>> Is it possible to refresh the list or the interaction with people accesing
>> the voting system to prevent people voting to already available libraries.
>> Could be libraries removed from the list as soon as they become available ?
>> 
>> Thanks for your attention
>> 
>> Joaquin Abian
> 
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> 
> -- 
> Aahz (aahz at pythoncraft.com)           <*>         http://www.pythoncraft.com/
> 
> "....Normal is what cuts off your sixth finger and your tail..."  --Siobhan
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www

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From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Dec 12 22:47:23 2011
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:47:23 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Python 3 Poll
In-Reply-To: <4EE3BBD4.1050105@voidspace.org.uk>
References: <CAHUNo3tkHr_ET1Cac-KTbLkQkUUTgNW3D-DRxreC-t5q-7o1UA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE3BBD4.1050105@voidspace.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4EE6766B.3080302@v.loewis.de>

> Many of the packages listed already have py3k versions available in
> windows (matplotlib, PIL, pygame, ipython, pyramid). Some are already
> official versions like ipython or pyramid, some are available as
> binaries in Gohlke repository. 

Dear Joaquin,

We are certainly interested in removing those packages from the poll
which have been ported to Python 3. To that effect, I have activated
a procedure which checks regularly for packages that use the Python :: 3
trove classifier.

For the others in your list, we need to consider them individually,
and then remove them manually. For Pygame, it appears that the
maintainers only have old releases on PyPI, but not the most recent one,
so I added it manually.

For ipython, I have also removed it from the list, even though it
probably would be better if ipython used the trove classifier.

For the packages that don't have released their Python 3 versions yet,
I'd rather keep the status quo, until they actually make a release
that supports Python 3.

If you think more packages need reconsideration, please let us know.

Regards,
Martin

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 14:00:48 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:00:48 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org (Was:
 Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl>wrote:
>
>  On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> >
> > Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
> > > On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Paul Boddie wrote:
> > >>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
> > >>>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
> > >>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
> > >>>>     anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
> > >>>> Jython wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector
> page
> > >>>> briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
> > >>>> Python wiki.
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
> makes
> > >>> sense to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was
> changed.
> > >>> I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
> so I'm
> > >>> sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
> > >>
> > >> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
> > >> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
> > >>
> > >>  * Python wiki
> > >>  * Jython  wiki
> > >>  * PSF wiki
> > >>
> > >> and perhaps more.
> > >
> > > That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
> > > exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
> make
> > > the change.
> >
> > Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?
>
> It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
> configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
> respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
> wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
> directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
> have a redirect from the old /moin url.
>

If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
migration:

 * wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
knowledge base
 * wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
 * wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
 * wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to  wiki.jython.org/\1
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Sun Dec 18 22:53:46 2011
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 22:53:46 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PyPI migrated to dinsdale
Message-ID: <4EEE60EA.2000705@v.loewis.de>

It appears that ximinez' eth0 breaks under heavy load; I have
now migrated PyPI to dinsdale as a temporary measure. It may
be that I missed copying some files, please forward reports to
me or fix the issue yourself (in which case I'd still like to
know).

Regards,
Martin

From mal at egenix.com  Mon Dec 19 11:01:56 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:01:56 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl>wrote:
>>
>>  On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>>>> On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>>>>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>>>>>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
>>>>>>>     anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
>>>>>>> Jython wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector
>> page
>>>>>>> briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
>>>>>>> Python wiki.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
>> makes
>>>>>> sense to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was
>> changed.
>>>>>> I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
>> so I'm
>>>>>> sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>>>>>
>>>>> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
>>>>> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>>>>>
>>>>>  * Python wiki
>>>>>  * Jython  wiki
>>>>>  * PSF wiki
>>>>>
>>>>> and perhaps more.
>>>>
>>>> That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
>>>> exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
>> make
>>>> the change.
>>>
>>> Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?
>>
>> It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
>> configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
>> respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
>> wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
>> directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
>> have a redirect from the old /moin url.
>>
> 
> If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
> To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
> migration:
> 
>  * wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
> knowledge base
>  * wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
>  * wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
> wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
>  * wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to  wiki.jython.org/\1

I don't think this will technically work with MoinMoin, since it
needs the URL prefix to distinguish between the wiki instances
in a farm installation.

We could have a redirect from anything not a wiki instance
prefix to wiki.python.org/moin/\1, but the wiki pages themselves
would still need to use the /moin/ prefix.

BTW: What's so bad about the prefix advertising the use of
MoinMoin for the Python.org wiki ?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 19 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From techtonik at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 18:33:14 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:33:14 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xJmdcZxu2CrePX5ReUvFp2fghUtRdhskz-wG5GJdf2emA@mail.gmail.com>

The same stuff that makes you type 'hg' unstead of 'mercurial' - not
everybody us using mouse to click through aiki pages. And as as a person
who actually uses wiki and contribute to it, I find it inconvenient.

On Dec 19, 2011 1:01 PM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl
>w...
I don't think this will technically work with MoinMoin, since it
needs the URL prefix to distinguish between the wiki instances
in a farm installation.

We could have a redirect from anything not a wiki instance
prefix to wiki.python.org/moin/\1, but the wiki pages themselves
would still need to use the /moin/ prefix.

BTW: What's so bad about the prefix advertising the use of
MoinMoin for the Python.org wiki ?

--
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 19 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


  eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
   D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
          Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
              http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/
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From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Mon Dec 19 18:49:26 2011
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:49:26 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS1yQtXcPyZPSySsLn2kMR-Po14E-xWh8Uepfpd7fqx9Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:01, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> anatoly techtonik wrote:
>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl>wrote:
>>>
>>> ?On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> ? ? anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>>>>>>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
>>>>>>>> ? ? anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
>>>>>>>> Jython wikis. ?At least there used to be. ?Now I see the selector
>>> page
>>>>>>>> briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
>>>>>>>> Python wiki.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
>>> makes
>>>>>>> sense to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was
>>> changed.
>>>>>>> I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
>>> so I'm
>>>>>>> sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
>>>>>> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?* Python wiki
>>>>>> ?* Jython ?wiki
>>>>>> ?* PSF wiki
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and perhaps more.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
>>>>> exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
>>> make
>>>>> the change.
>>>>
>>>> Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?
>>>
>>> It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
>>> configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
>>> respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
>>> wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
>>> directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
>>> have a redirect from the old /moin url.
>>>
>>
>> If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
>> To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
>> migration:
>>
>> ?* wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
>> knowledge base
>> ?* wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
>> ?* wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
>> wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
>> ?* wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to ?wiki.jython.org/\1
>
> I don't think this will technically work with MoinMoin, since it
> needs the URL prefix to distinguish between the wiki instances
> in a farm installation.
>
> We could have a redirect from anything not a wiki instance
> prefix to wiki.python.org/moin/\1, but the wiki pages themselves
> would still need to use the /moin/ prefix.

I'm sorry, but I must protest here. As one of the core developers of
MoinMoin I have never heard about such a limitation -- perhaps in was
there in some older versions of MoinMoin, from before I joined. In
fact, the wikis at *.moinmo.in itself are running as a farm, as far as
I know, and they are all top-level wikis. The regular expressions in
farmconfig can match the domain names just fine. Even if there was
such a limitation, it would be very easy to work around with Apache's
rewrite rules. There are no technical problems preventing us from
using the setup that Anatoly described, and I will be glad to
configure the wikis once an agreement is reached.

> BTW: What's so bad about the prefix advertising the use of
> MoinMoin for the Python.org wiki ?

Personally I don't mind it. I'm just trying to say that there are no
technical requirements for it.
-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

From mal at egenix.com  Mon Dec 19 20:01:48 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:01:48 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2VPS1yQtXcPyZPSySsLn2kMR-Po14E-xWh8Uepfpd7fqx9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1yQtXcPyZPSySsLn2kMR-Po14E-xWh8Uepfpd7fqx9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF8A1C.1010602@egenix.com>

Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:01, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>> anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>     anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>>>>>>>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
>>>>>>>>>     anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
>>>>>>>>> Jython wikis.  At least there used to be.  Now I see the selector
>>>> page
>>>>>>>>> briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
>>>>>>>>> Python wiki.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> sense to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was
>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>> I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
>>>> so I'm
>>>>>>>> sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
>>>>>>> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  * Python wiki
>>>>>>>  * Jython  wiki
>>>>>>>  * PSF wiki
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and perhaps more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
>>>>>> exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
>>>> make
>>>>>> the change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?
>>>>
>>>> It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
>>>> configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
>>>> respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
>>>> wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
>>>> directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
>>>> have a redirect from the old /moin url.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
>>> To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
>>> migration:
>>>
>>>  * wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
>>> knowledge base
>>>  * wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
>>>  * wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
>>> wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
>>>  * wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to  wiki.jython.org/\1
>>
>> I don't think this will technically work with MoinMoin, since it
>> needs the URL prefix to distinguish between the wiki instances
>> in a farm installation.
>>
>> We could have a redirect from anything not a wiki instance
>> prefix to wiki.python.org/moin/\1, but the wiki pages themselves
>> would still need to use the /moin/ prefix.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I must protest here. As one of the core developers of
> MoinMoin I have never heard about such a limitation -- perhaps in was
> there in some older versions of MoinMoin, from before I joined. In
> fact, the wikis at *.moinmo.in itself are running as a farm, as far as
> I know, and they are all top-level wikis. The regular expressions in
> farmconfig can match the domain names just fine. Even if there was
> such a limitation, it would be very easy to work around with Apache's
> rewrite rules. There are no technical problems preventing us from
> using the setup that Anatoly described, and I will be glad to
> configure the wikis once an agreement is reached.

Perhaps I wasn't clear:

The farmconfig.py needs to be able to distinguish between
different wiki instances and since we have at least three such
instances running on wiki.python.org I don't see how you
could have a regular expression separate the three if
the /moin/ instance is going to be moved to top-level.

You could need to separate them by domain name, but then
we'd need new domain names and Apache setups for the PSF wiki
and possibly other instances running on the server.

>> BTW: What's so bad about the prefix advertising the use of
>> MoinMoin for the Python.org wiki ?
> 
> Personally I don't mind it. I'm just trying to say that there are no
> technical requirements for it.

Ok. FWIW, I don't see an issue here, so don't think any action is
necessary. 5 extra characters to type don't warrant the
extra maintenance effort, IMHO.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 19 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Mon Dec 19 20:32:08 2011
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:32:08 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <4EEF8A1C.1010602@egenix.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1yQtXcPyZPSySsLn2kMR-Po14E-xWh8Uepfpd7fqx9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEF8A1C.1010602@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 20:01, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 11:01, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>> anatoly techtonik wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Radomir Dopieralski <sheep at sheep.art.pl>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ?On Dec 2, 2011 11:07 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Radomir Dopieralski wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 2, 2011 10:12 AM, "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Friday 02 December 2011 03:00:29 skip at pobox.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> ? ? anatoly> And it could be a little easier to type
>>>>>>>>>> wiki.python.org/MelbournePUG if mysterious somebody
>>>>>>>>>> ? ? anatoly> could adjust web-server configuration accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There's another layer in the URL which distinguishes the Python and
>>>>>>>>>> Jython wikis. ?At least there used to be. ?Now I see the selector
>>>>> page
>>>>>>>>>> briefly, then it redirects me to the last page I was viewing on the
>>>>>>>>>> Python wiki.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I think there was a discussion about this: in principle, it
>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>>> sense to eliminate the "/moin" part, and I guess that this was
>>>>> changed.
>>>>>>>>> I must admit that I haven't been following this list for some time,
>>>>> so I'm
>>>>>>>>> sorry if I'm not up-to-date with what people have been doing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The /moin part is still there and AFAIK is needed, since there are
>>>>>>>> several instances of moin running on the wiki.python.org domain:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?* Python wiki
>>>>>>>> ?* Jython ?wiki
>>>>>>>> ?* PSF wiki
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> and perhaps more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's not a problem, those urls can be made to work just fine as
>>>>>>> exceptions. I can write apropriate rules if there is a decission to
>>>>> make
>>>>>>> the change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Could you elaborate a bit ? What are those "exceptions" ?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a technical term, I meant it literally. Basically you can
>>>>> configure the web server so that the urls of those other wikis lead to the
>>>>> respective applications, while all other urls lead to the default python
>>>>> wiki. I think it doesn't even require rewrite rules, as scriptalias
>>>>> directives are evaluated in order of occurence. We would of course still
>>>>> have a redirect from the old /moin url.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If there are no objections, I would say - Radomir, go for it. =)
>>>> To summarize what do we want to do and how it will behave after the
>>>> migration:
>>>>
>>>> ?* wiki.python.org/PageName - is a new shorter way of accessing Python
>>>> knowledge base
>>>> ?* wiki.jython.org/PageName - is a new shorter way to access Jython pages
>>>> ?* wiki.python.org/moin/(.*)$ - will be a permanent redirect to
>>>> wiki.python.org/\1 to save external links from breaking
>>>> ?* wiki.python.org/jython/(.*)$ - the same to ?wiki.jython.org/\1
>>>
>>> I don't think this will technically work with MoinMoin, since it
>>> needs the URL prefix to distinguish between the wiki instances
>>> in a farm installation.
>>>
>>> We could have a redirect from anything not a wiki instance
>>> prefix to wiki.python.org/moin/\1, but the wiki pages themselves
>>> would still need to use the /moin/ prefix.

That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
-- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.

>> I'm sorry, but I must protest here. As one of the core developers of
>> MoinMoin I have never heard about such a limitation -- perhaps in was
>> there in some older versions of MoinMoin, from before I joined. In
>> fact, the wikis at *.moinmo.in itself are running as a farm, as far as
>> I know, and they are all top-level wikis. The regular expressions in
>> farmconfig can match the domain names just fine. Even if there was
>> such a limitation, it would be very easy to work around with Apache's
>> rewrite rules. There are no technical problems preventing us from
>> using the setup that Anatoly described, and I will be glad to
>> configure the wikis once an agreement is reached.
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear:
>
> The farmconfig.py needs to be able to distinguish between
> different wiki instances and since we have at least three such
> instances running on wiki.python.org I don't see how you
> could have a regular expression separate the three if
> the /moin/ instance is going to be moved to top-level.
>
> You could need to separate them by domain name, but then
> we'd need new domain names and Apache setups for the PSF wiki
> and possibly other instances running on the server.
>
>>> BTW: What's so bad about the prefix advertising the use of
>>> MoinMoin for the Python.org wiki ?
>>
>> Personally I don't mind it. I'm just trying to say that there are no
>> technical requirements for it.
>
> Ok. FWIW, I don't see an issue here, so don't think any action is
> necessary. 5 extra characters to type don't warrant the
> extra maintenance effort, IMHO.

I would do all the work and I don't really mind.

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

From martin at v.loewis.de  Mon Dec 19 23:41:14 2011
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:41:14 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>	<4EEF0B94.9020407@egenix.com>	<CAJ2VPS1yQtXcPyZPSySsLn2kMR-Po14E-xWh8Uepfpd7fqx9Rg@mail.gmail.com>	<4EEF8A1C.1010602@egenix.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>

> That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
> -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
> So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
> the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
> wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.

I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.

I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
to work "forever", since people are linking to them. Making them
redirect would be an option if implementable.

Regards,
Martin

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Tue Dec 20 01:07:49 2011
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:07:49 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
	(Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Monday 19 December 2011 23:41:14 Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> > That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
> > -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
> > So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
> > the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
> > wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.
>
> I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
> point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
> could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
> is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.

I don't remember the farmconfig limitations, but I'm pretty sure you could get 
Apache to handle this and point /psf to a specific Wiki instance before any 
other instance is offered a chance to handle it.

> I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
> thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
> to work "forever", since people are linking to them. Making them
> redirect would be an option if implementable.

I'm also pretty sure that Anatoly mentioned URL stability. I think the 
simplification would be a reasonable enhancement.

Paul

From mal at egenix.com  Tue Dec 20 09:24:25 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:24:25 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>
	<201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
Message-ID: <4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>

Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Monday 19 December 2011 23:41:14 Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>>> That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
>>> -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
>>> So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
>>> the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
>>> wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.
>>
>> I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
>> point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
>> could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
>> is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.
> 
> I don't remember the farmconfig limitations, but I'm pretty sure you could get 
> Apache to handle this and point /psf to a specific Wiki instance before any 
> other instance is offered a chance to handle it.
>
>> I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
>> thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
>> to work "forever", since people are linking to them. Making them
>> redirect would be an option if implementable.
> 
> I'm also pretty sure that Anatoly mentioned URL stability. I think the 
> simplification would be a reasonable enhancement.

Why not reverse this and redirect from the wiki.python.org/PageName
to wiki.python.org/moin/PageName for all page names that don't
start with (moin/|psf/|jython/) ?

That way you get your shortened URLs, but don't have to change the
way MoinMoin is configured or play with domain names and new
Apache virtual server setups.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 20 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 13:02:42 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:02:42 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de> <201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:24 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:

> Paul Boddie wrote:
> > On Monday 19 December 2011 23:41:14 Martin v. L?wis wrote:
> >>> That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
> >>> -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
> >>> So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
> >>> the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
> >>> wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.
> >>
> >> I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
> >> point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
> >> could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
> >> is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.
> >
> > I don't remember the farmconfig limitations, but I'm pretty sure you
> could get
> > Apache to handle this and point /psf to a specific Wiki instance before
> any
> > other instance is offered a chance to handle it.
> >
> >> I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
> >> thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
> >> to work "forever", since people are linking to them. Making them
> >> redirect would be an option if implementable.
> >
> > I'm also pretty sure that Anatoly mentioned URL stability. I think the
> > simplification would be a reasonable enhancement.
>
> Why not reverse this and redirect from the wiki.python.org/PageName
> to wiki.python.org/moin/PageName for all page names that don't
> start with (moin/|psf/|jython/) ?
>

To me this proposal is like - 'Why have short URLs by default if we can
have a long ones?'
And I confirm that existing URLs will work "forever" and will redirect to
new shorter default page
names.

That way you get your shortened URLs, but don't have to change the
> way MoinMoin is configured or play with domain names and new
> Apache virtual server setups.


If I was a lazy admin, I'd love this suggestion, but can't agree as a user.
If Apache is bothersome to maintain - we can change it to Nginx to make the
application more portable.

If you're concerned about positive /moin/ advertisement effect, then from a
perspective of a Python web developer/admin, the /moin/ prefix looks
exactly like an anti-ad. "Why the heck is this prefix doing here if there
is already a wiki.* domain namespace?" "Does MoinMoin support domain names
mapping?" "Is it a software that is so hard to customize?"

So, we remove MoinMoin anti-ad, make wiki URLs simple for users and
preserve existing links from breaking. It is a fantastic deal for the small
cost of Apache reconfiguration. If you like the pitch, just say "O key" and
we'll close it. =)
-- 
anatoly t.
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 15:28:56 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:28:56 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Open sourcing 3kpoll code
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xJemHKmTdpUGdm+t+b8jpkPN86DJoPL62OeM6eqKD-1hA@mail.gmail.com>

1. Where is the code for http://python.org/3kpoll ?
2. How about advertising it on the code's page?
3. What is required to make it run on my local machine?


I asking, because I want to see stats what most requested packages are
already ported and what are not, because http://getpython3.net/ doesn't
provide this info.
-- 
anatoly t.
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From patcam at python.org  Tue Dec 20 21:06:18 2011
From: patcam at python.org (Pat Campbell)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:06:18 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November 2011
	- Please Post Online
Message-ID: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Pydotorg:

Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/  at the usual web
locations:
please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
November 2011.

If you have any questions, please let me know.

Thanks,
Pat


-- 
Pat Campbell
PSF Administrator/Secretary
patcam at python.org
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 22:59:23 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:59:23 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xJAn+iuzSvDAVsxv6n2BQKn5_2b37OMTHGhf452Vv9joA@mail.gmail.com>

The funny thing to read about planned pydotorg redesign proposal that had
never landed on this list.

Another PSF communitcation fail. =)
-- 
anatoly t.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:06 PM, Pat Campbell <patcam at python.org> wrote:

> Hello Pydotorg:
>
> Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
> http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/  at the usual web
> locations:
> please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
> November 2011.
>
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Pat
>
>
> --
> Pat Campbell
> PSF Administrator/Secretary
> patcam at python.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
>
>
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From brian at python.org  Tue Dec 20 23:06:15 2011
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:06:15 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xJAn+iuzSvDAVsxv6n2BQKn5_2b37OMTHGhf452Vv9joA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xJAn+iuzSvDAVsxv6n2BQKn5_2b37OMTHGhf452Vv9joA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwq3-V==K5c_FA57tXNWY2o1VkKofVZMh9qdPUR8Hzzj2w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 15:59, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>wrote:

> The funny thing to read about planned pydotorg redesign proposal that had
> never landed on this list.
>
> Another PSF communitcation fail. =)


You are wrong.

The "request for proposals" writing *itself* is what's being proposed, and
that, for hundreds of reasons, is being handled internally. When the
request for proposals document has been solidified, it will absolutely be
circulated and communicated in order to receive proposals to complete the
work.
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From brian at python.org  Tue Dec 20 23:32:17 2011
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:32:17 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwo-kvW3_Ts0h2TsAO4HfYK-BLyDkWryrcDxDFgcQUX9Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 14:06, Pat Campbell <patcam at python.org> wrote:

> Hello Pydotorg:
>
> Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
> http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/  at the usual web
> locations:
> please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
> November 2011.
>
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>
> Thanks,
> Pat


Posted: http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/2011-11-21/
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From techtonik at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 00:38:52 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:38:52 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwq3-V==K5c_FA57tXNWY2o1VkKofVZMh9qdPUR8Hzzj2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xJAn+iuzSvDAVsxv6n2BQKn5_2b37OMTHGhf452Vv9joA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwq3-V==K5c_FA57tXNWY2o1VkKofVZMh9qdPUR8Hzzj2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xLSEZSTu=QLoHz7SoFwu5y0gYKyvjydVf0mhhGqGbYLQw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:06 AM, Brian Curtin <brian at python.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 15:59, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The funny thing to read about planned pydotorg redesign proposal that had
>> never landed on this list.
>>
>> Another PSF communitcation fail. =)
>
>
> You are wrong.
>
> The "request for proposals" writing *itself* is what's being proposed, and
> that, for hundreds of reasons, is being handled internally. When the
> request for proposals document has been solidified, it will absolutely be
> circulated and communicated in order to receive proposals to complete the
> work.
>

Do I understand correctly, there will be only two weeks to gather proposals
and feedback?
-- 
anatoly t.
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From patcam at python.org  Wed Dec 21 01:16:34 2011
From: patcam at python.org (Pat Campbell)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:16:34 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAD+XWwo-kvW3_Ts0h2TsAO4HfYK-BLyDkWryrcDxDFgcQUX9Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwo-kvW3_Ts0h2TsAO4HfYK-BLyDkWryrcDxDFgcQUX9Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFy_4d+uOv-LMcOToUK+AJkGzO+nBckTxBnYOHWEhVOE+F1jCA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks a whole bunch Brian.
Pat

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Brian Curtin <brian at python.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 14:06, Pat Campbell <patcam at python.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello Pydotorg:
>>
>> Could you please post the following "PSF board meeting minutes" online,
>> http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/  at the usual web
>> locations:
>> please see the attachment for the approved board meeting minutes for
>> November 2011.
>>
>> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Pat
>
>
> Posted: http://www.python.org/psf/records/board/minutes/2011-11-21/
>



-- 
Pat Campbell
PSF Administrator/Secretary
patcam at python.org
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From brian at python.org  Wed Dec 21 01:28:13 2011
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:28:13 -0600
Subject: [pydotorg-www] PSF- Board Meeting Minutes -Approved- November
 2011 - Please Post Online
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xLSEZSTu=QLoHz7SoFwu5y0gYKyvjydVf0mhhGqGbYLQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFy_4dJpx-mjqmqG3-beRV2iEKfwTrfBtoVp+6gRQwukEL_yjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xJAn+iuzSvDAVsxv6n2BQKn5_2b37OMTHGhf452Vv9joA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAD+XWwq3-V==K5c_FA57tXNWY2o1VkKofVZMh9qdPUR8Hzzj2w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xLSEZSTu=QLoHz7SoFwu5y0gYKyvjydVf0mhhGqGbYLQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwriFxbdsrR3N1dRw0dQziRc4FcFmkmGxT_EiMcPUZwKmw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 17:38, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:06 AM, Brian Curtin <brian at python.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 15:59, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The funny thing to read about planned pydotorg redesign proposal that had
>>> never landed on this list.
>>>
>>> Another PSF communitcation fail. =)
>>
>>
>> You are wrong.
>>
>> The "request for proposals" writing *itself* is what's being proposed, and
>> that, for hundreds of reasons, is being handled internally. When the request
>> for proposals document has been solidified, it will absolutely be circulated
>> and communicated in order to receive proposals to complete the work.
>
>
> Do I understand correctly, there will be only two weeks to gather proposals
> and feedback?

No. The minutes state that there was a two week call for comments
about the draft of the request for proposals.

Further questions/discussion of the minutes should be taken somewhere else.

From skip at pobox.com  Wed Dec 21 17:02:50 2011
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:02:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help! BlockedUsersGroup page is gone from wiki
Message-ID: <20111221160250.3871222E0ADA@montanaro.dyndns.org>

I edited the BlockedUsersGroup page to add a spammer login.  Moin
not-so-helpfully deleted the page when I committed.  I tried reverting to a
couple different revisions of that page but it kept telling me the page was
deleted.  About the same time I deleted the spammy page "aweber".  That gave
me an internal server error.  Radomir, are you out there to do a quick
triage of this problem?

Skip

From sheep at sheep.art.pl  Wed Dec 21 22:39:24 2011
From: sheep at sheep.art.pl (Radomir Dopieralski)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:39:24 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help! BlockedUsersGroup page is gone from wiki
In-Reply-To: <20111221160250.3871222E0ADA@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <20111221160250.3871222E0ADA@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAJ2VPS1Jm06xiZP9rttj+BPHy+u3_a5dX45k2FVJQUC8NPb5qA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 17:02,  <skip at pobox.com> wrote:
> I edited the BlockedUsersGroup page to add a spammer login. ?Moin
> not-so-helpfully deleted the page when I committed. ?I tried reverting to a
> couple different revisions of that page but it kept telling me the page was
> deleted. ?About the same time I deleted the spammy page "aweber". ?That gave
> me an internal server error. ?Radomir, are you out there to do a quick
> triage of this problem?

I looked at the logs, both Apache's and Moin's, and I can't see any
trace of those problems.
I will do some experiments tomorrow and try to find out what is going on.

-- 
Radomir Dopieralski, http://sheep.art.pl

From skip at montanaro.dyndns.org  Sat Dec 24 15:31:38 2011
From: skip at montanaro.dyndns.org (Skip Montanaro)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:31:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Asking questions on wiki pages - unproductive?
Message-ID: <20111224143138.6A89F22FCD06@montanaro.dyndns.org>


Some meme has taken up residence in the wiki which makes some people think
that posing a question on a wiki page is a good idea.  For instance:

    http://wiki.python.org/moin/Asking%20for%20Help/%27break%27%20outside%20loop

I think it's a bad idea for a couple reasons.  First, I don't think very
many people who might (want to) answer these questions actually see them.
We have much better places for help: python-help, tutor, python-list.
Second, I suspect most people who ask questions are probably unfamiliar with
how to subscribe to changes to a page so they are notified when an answer is
posted.  I made a simple edit to the above page.  Only Fred Drake and Mats
Wichmann were notified of the change.  Unless the original poster comes back
and checks periodically, he'll never know if the question is answered.

How do we (or should we) get people to stop this practice?

Skip


From techtonik at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 17:12:44 2011
From: techtonik at gmail.com (anatoly techtonik)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:12:44 +0300
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de> <201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
	<CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPkN8xKrqUCUYs2nvGB-PcVRQ3BFanvzJBmsFGY4Q7WixQsPsQ@mail.gmail.com>

7 days have passed since last message, so I presume there are no
more objections to do
required configuration changes.  Of course, it will be more obvious if
people could directly
say they are o.k. with it.  Should we leave this open for another 7 days?
-- 
anatoly t.


On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 3:02 PM, anatoly techtonik <techtonik at gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 11:24 AM, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul Boddie wrote:
>> > On Monday 19 December 2011 23:41:14 Martin v. L?wis wrote:
>> >>> That's not a problem, I can match both on the domain and on the prefix
>> >>> -- and I can treat no prefix as yet another match for the prefix.
>> >>> So, wiki.python.org would lead to the python wiki, wiki.jython.org to
>> >>> the jython wiki, etc. plus there would be redirects from
>> >>> wiki.python.org/moin/* and wiki.python.org/jython/*.
>> >>
>> >> I think what MAL is saying is that you cannot have wiki.python.org/psf
>> >> point to one wiki, and wiki.python.org/ point to another one. If you
>> >> could, it would be ambiguous if wiki.python.org/psf/BoardAgenda
>> >> is a page in the PSF wiki, or in the Python Wiki.
>> >
>> > I don't remember the farmconfig limitations, but I'm pretty sure you
>> could get
>> > Apache to handle this and point /psf to a specific Wiki instance before
>> any
>> > other instance is offered a chance to handle it.
>> >
>> >> I'm not sure whether URL stability has been discussed yet in this
>> >> thread: it's absolutely necessary that the existing URLs continue
>> >> to work "forever", since people are linking to them. Making them
>> >> redirect would be an option if implementable.
>> >
>> > I'm also pretty sure that Anatoly mentioned URL stability. I think the
>> > simplification would be a reasonable enhancement.
>>
>> Why not reverse this and redirect from the wiki.python.org/PageName
>> to wiki.python.org/moin/PageName for all page names that don't
>> start with (moin/|psf/|jython/) ?
>>
>
> To me this proposal is like - 'Why have short URLs by default if we can
> have a long ones?'
> And I confirm that existing URLs will work "forever" and will redirect to
> new shorter default page
> names.
>
> That way you get your shortened URLs, but don't have to change the
>> way MoinMoin is configured or play with domain names and new
>> Apache virtual server setups.
>
>
> If I was a lazy admin, I'd love this suggestion, but can't agree as a
> user. If Apache is bothersome to maintain - we can change it to Nginx to
> make the application more portable.
>
> If you're concerned about positive /moin/ advertisement effect, then from
> a perspective of a Python web developer/admin, the /moin/ prefix looks
> exactly like an anti-ad. "Why the heck is this prefix doing here if there
> is already a wiki.* domain namespace?" "Does MoinMoin support domain names
> mapping?" "Is it a software that is so hard to customize?"
>
> So, we remove MoinMoin anti-ad, make wiki URLs simple for users and
> preserve existing links from breaking. It is a fantastic deal for the small
> cost of Apache reconfiguration. If you like the pitch, just say "O key" and
> we'll close it. =)
>  --
> anatoly t.
>
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From mal at egenix.com  Wed Dec 28 16:38:01 2011
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:38:01 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
 (Was: Internal Server Error while reverting spam)
In-Reply-To: <CAPkN8xKrqUCUYs2nvGB-PcVRQ3BFanvzJBmsFGY4Q7WixQsPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>
	<201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
	<CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xKrqUCUYs2nvGB-PcVRQ3BFanvzJBmsFGY4Q7WixQsPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFB37D9.5000101@egenix.com>

anatoly techtonik wrote:
> 7 days have passed since last message, so I presume there are no
> more objections to do
> required configuration changes.  Of course, it will be more obvious if
> people could directly
> say they are o.k. with it.  Should we leave this open for another 7 days?

I'm still -1 on the change. It only helps people typing the URL and you
can get the same effect of saving those 5 letters by having wiki.python.org
redirect such URLs to the /moin/ instance, without any complicated URL
redirection setup. Browsers don't really care whether the URL is long
or short and neither do mice :-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 28 2011)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From brandon at rhodesmill.org  Wed Dec 28 19:19:17 2011
From: brandon at rhodesmill.org (Brandon Craig Rhodes)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:19:17 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
In-Reply-To: <4EFB37D9.5000101@egenix.com> (M.'s message of "Wed, 28 Dec 2011
	16:38:01 +0100")
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de> <201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
	<CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xKrqUCUYs2nvGB-PcVRQ3BFanvzJBmsFGY4Q7WixQsPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EFB37D9.5000101@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <87vcp0v9sq.fsf@asaph.rhodesmill.org>

I am:

+1

... on removing the extraneous and noisy URL component.  If I thought
that unnecessary, implementation-waving cruft and verbosity was
tolerable, then I suspect I would not be writing Python in the first
place. :)

-- 
Brandon Craig Rhodes   brandon at rhodesmill.org   http://rhodesmill.org/brandon

From g.brandl at gmx.net  Wed Dec 28 21:17:54 2011
From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 21:17:54 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Removing /moin/ suffix from wiki.python.org
In-Reply-To: <87vcp0v9sq.fsf@asaph.rhodesmill.org>
References: <CAPkN8xKpEYp=4pZ_Eox8xUTZzc5y+KmtzFvWaXSxrVJ3301iaQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAJ2VPS1wPL8it3YgCmHcph46n677BzfutmU0hbdoddHuzbu38A@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EEFBD8A.2050907@v.loewis.de>
	<201112200107.50280.paul@boddie.org.uk>
	<4EF04639.9020905@egenix.com>
	<CAPkN8x+76wojx_p_jAtJYwY8jMb1KhKzXELSHSLbG9CKbr2y6w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAPkN8xKrqUCUYs2nvGB-PcVRQ3BFanvzJBmsFGY4Q7WixQsPsQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EFB37D9.5000101@egenix.com> <87vcp0v9sq.fsf@asaph.rhodesmill.org>
Message-ID: <4EFB7972.3070703@gmx.net>

On 12/28/2011 07:19 PM, Brandon Craig Rhodes wrote:
> I am:
> 
> +1
> 
> ... on removing the extraneous and noisy URL component.  If I thought
> that unnecessary, implementation-waving cruft and verbosity was
> tolerable, then I suspect I would not be writing Python in the first
> place. :)
> 

+1.

Georg


From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Thu Dec 29 00:29:09 2011
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:29:09 +0000
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Please add "Radio Free Python" to the list of
	podcasts
References: <4EFB1702.1060804@hastings.org>
Message-ID: <0ED1E38C-13DA-4C5C-A978-A21298FA16F6@voidspace.org.uk>



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Larry Hastings <larry at hastings.org>
> Subject: Please add "Radio Free Python" to the list of podcasts
> Date: 28 December 2011 13:17:54 GMT
> To: webmaster at python.org
> 
> 
> 
> Howdy, I'm the guy behind the podcast "Radio Free Python".  I'd like to see it listed on the python.org pages listing podcasts.  Please use the canonical site address:
> http://radiofreepython.com/
> 
> I realize I've only released four episodes so far.  On the other hand, RFP is the only Python podcast currently releasing new episodes.  All the podcasts currently listed on python.org (Python 411, A Little Bit Of Python, From Python Import Podcast, Jython Podcast, DjangoDose) haven't released a new episode in six months, if not longer.  I think it'd be nice to have something lively listed on those pages :)
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> larry


--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/

May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing http://www.sqlite.org/different.html





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From solipsis at pitrou.net  Fri Dec 30 14:37:59 2011
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:37:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] dinsdale rebooted
Message-ID: <loom.20111230T143659-400@post.gmane.org>

Hello,

dinsdale was unresponsive (all the services) so I've rebooted it. The services
should go back online after the boot sequence is finished.
(hopefully I didn't mess with anything when doing that)

Regards

Antoine.