From alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com  Sun Dec 14 18:44:07 2014
From: alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com (Alan Evangelista)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:44:07 -0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Request to become wiki editor
Message-ID: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

Hi.

I work with Python web frameworks for 2 years. The web frameworks wiki 
in python.org (https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks)
is the #1 result when you search "python web frameworks" in Google , but 
I think it is outdated and needs some updates.
It lists Grok, Pylons and Zope2 as popular full-stack frameworks. All of 
them are *not* popular and are currently in maintenance
status and are not being actvely developed for years. imho they should 
be moved to the "Other Full-Stack Frameworks" section.

Also, I dont understand why Flask is categorized as "full-stack 
framework" if it classifies itself as a microframework
(even the python.org wiki contains that Flashdescription).

Also, for consistency I think it'd be nice to either (1) also show first 
the popular basic framework such as flask,
bottle, cherrypy first in basic frameworks list or (2) unify popular and 
"not-so-popular" full-stack frameworks list.

I'd like to have editor permission to update this wiki with these changes.


Regards,
Alan Evangelista


From alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com  Tue Dec 16 04:18:17 2014
From: alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com (Alan Evangelista)
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 01:18:17 -0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Fwd: Request to become wiki editor
In-Reply-To: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
References: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <548FA479.5080408@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

Resending after subscribing to the mailing list because first email 
never arrived.


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	Request to become wiki editor
Date: 	Sun, 14 Dec 2014 15:44:07 -0200
From: 	Alan Evangelista <alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com>
To: 	pydotorg-www at python.org



Hi.

I work with Python web frameworks for 2 years. The web frameworks wiki
in python.org (https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks)
is the #1 result when you search "python web frameworks" in Google , but
I think it is outdated and needs some updates.
It lists Grok, Pylons and Zope2 as popular full-stack frameworks. All of
them are *not* popular and are currently in maintenance
status and are not being actvely developed for years. imho they should
be moved to the "Other Full-Stack Frameworks" section.

Also, I dont understand why Flask is categorized as "full-stack
framework" if it classifies itself as a microframework
(even the python.org wiki contains that Flashdescription).

Also, for consistency I think it'd be nice to either (1) also show first
the popular basic framework such as flask,
bottle, cherrypy first in basic frameworks list or (2) unify popular and
"not-so-popular" full-stack frameworks list.

I'd like to have editor permission to update this wiki with these changes.


Regards,
Alan Evangelista




From mal at egenix.com  Wed Dec 17 11:28:02 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 11:28:02 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Request to become wiki editor
In-Reply-To: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
References: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <54915AB2.5060607@egenix.com>

Hi Alan,

could you send us your wiki account name ? We can then add you to the
editors list.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 17 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

On 14.12.2014 18:44, Alan Evangelista wrote:
> Hi.
> 
> I work with Python web frameworks for 2 years. The web frameworks wiki in python.org
> (https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks)
> is the #1 result when you search "python web frameworks" in Google , but I think it is outdated and
> needs some updates.
> It lists Grok, Pylons and Zope2 as popular full-stack frameworks. All of them are *not* popular and
> are currently in maintenance
> status and are not being actvely developed for years. imho they should be moved to the "Other
> Full-Stack Frameworks" section.
> 
> Also, I dont understand why Flask is categorized as "full-stack framework" if it classifies itself
> as a microframework
> (even the python.org wiki contains that Flashdescription).
> 
> Also, for consistency I think it'd be nice to either (1) also show first the popular basic framework
> such as flask,
> bottle, cherrypy first in basic frameworks list or (2) unify popular and "not-so-popular" full-stack
> frameworks list.
> 
> I'd like to have editor permission to update this wiki with these changes.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Alan Evangelista
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www


From omfgnuts at checkio.org  Wed Dec 17 13:39:48 2014
From: omfgnuts at checkio.org (Nikita Demchenko)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:39:48 +0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Editors Group
Message-ID: <CAApQFXKXd6bQrfa-Y3J02H706J=Fv30k25ssFJMdbjFaO7VgNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, my nickname is OMFGNuts and i'd like to join editors group to add some
learning courses and sources.

Thanx!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20141217/6e89fbb9/attachment.html>

From mal at egenix.com  Wed Dec 17 15:56:48 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:56:48 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Editors Group
In-Reply-To: <CAApQFXKXd6bQrfa-Y3J02H706J=Fv30k25ssFJMdbjFaO7VgNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAApQFXKXd6bQrfa-Y3J02H706J=Fv30k25ssFJMdbjFaO7VgNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <549199B0.4050804@egenix.com>

Added. Happy editing !

On 17.12.2014 13:39, Nikita Demchenko wrote:
> Hi, my nickname is OMFGNuts and i'd like to join editors group to add some
> learning courses and sources.
> 
> Thanx!
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 17 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From mal at egenix.com  Thu Dec 18 11:47:10 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2014 11:47:10 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Request to become wiki editor
In-Reply-To: <54917A42.3090507@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
References: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
 <54915AB2.5060607@egenix.com> <54917A42.3090507@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <5492B0AE.90303@egenix.com>

On 17.12.2014 13:42, Alan Evangelista wrote:
> On 12/17/2014 08:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> could you send us your wiki account name ? We can then add you to the
>> editors list.
>>
> 
> iirc it is Alan Evangelista
> 
> I tried to login to make sure, but I'm getting timeouts in python.org

I've added you account name. Please check whether it works. The
timeouts are caused by the wiki VM being a bit slow. Sorry about that,
but there's not a lot I can do about it.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 18 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com  Fri Dec 19 17:21:22 2014
From: alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com (Alan Evangelista)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 14:21:22 -0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Request to become wiki editor
In-Reply-To: <5492B0AE.90303@egenix.com>
References: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
 <54915AB2.5060607@egenix.com> <54917A42.3090507@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
 <5492B0AE.90303@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <54945082.1050304@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

On 12/18/2014 08:47 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> On 17.12.2014 13:42, Alan Evangelista wrote:
>> On 12/17/2014 08:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>> could you send us your wiki account name ? We can then add you to the
>>> editors list.
>> iirc it is Alan Evangelista
> I've added you account name. Please check whether it works.

I was able to login now. My OpenID is AlanEvangelista. Sorry for 
providing the wrong
OpenID before. I'm not still able to edit 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks,
so I guess you need to grant permission to the correct OpenID.

side note: trying to login with an OpenID with whitespaces (eg Alan 
Evangelista) always
generates a timeout. Warning the user that OpenID must be in 
<FirstName><LastName>
format instead would be better.


Regards,
Alan Evangelista



From mal at egenix.com  Fri Dec 19 18:31:42 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:31:42 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Request to become wiki editor
In-Reply-To: <54945082.1050304@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
References: <548DCC67.3040302@linux.vnet.ibm.com>	<54915AB2.5060607@egenix.com>
 <54917A42.3090507@linux.vnet.ibm.com>	<5492B0AE.90303@egenix.com>
 <54945082.1050304@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <549460FE.1060607@egenix.com>

On 19.12.2014 17:21, Alan Evangelista wrote:
> On 12/18/2014 08:47 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> On 17.12.2014 13:42, Alan Evangelista wrote:
>>> On 12/17/2014 08:28 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>>>> could you send us your wiki account name ? We can then add you to the
>>>> editors list.
>>> iirc it is Alan Evangelista
>> I've added you account name. Please check whether it works.
> 
> I was able to login now. My OpenID is AlanEvangelista. Sorry for providing the wrong
> OpenID before. I'm not still able to edit https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks,
> so I guess you need to grant permission to the correct OpenID.
> 
> side note: trying to login with an OpenID with whitespaces (eg Alan Evangelista) always
> generates a timeout. Warning the user that OpenID must be in <FirstName><LastName>
> format instead would be better.

I corrected your login name in the editors group. It should
work now.

Regarding OpenID account names: aren't these usually email
addresses without spaces ?

FWIW: I've added a section on how to create a wiki account to
the frontpage, which also mentions the preferred wiki account name
format. Hopefully that'll help.

Thanks,
-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 19 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From faassen at startifact.com  Sun Dec 21 00:14:01 2014
From: faassen at startifact.com (Martijn Faassen)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 00:14:01 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] web frameworks page feedback
Message-ID: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

[I'm not sure where discussion about the wiki content should go,
perhaps not here, in which I apologize. please skip to read the
bottom]

I noticed a recent change to the
https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks that moved Grok (I
framework I helped found) down from the popular frameworks. I agree
with that move; it's not been popular for a while now and was never as
popular as, say, Pyramid or Flask are now.

Here are some concerns I have with the current page:

* Frameworks that I consider are big and get a lot of attention such
as Flask and Pyramid do not come under any "popular" heading. But they
are very popular, and right now they're ranked with obscure things
like BlueBream or Aquarium. I don't think this reflects the state of
the Python community. If you're going to do popularity stuff at all,
why not list some of the popular non-full stack frameworks?

* Why are some frameworks in a table format (which gives them more
attention, I think) and some not? I can see doing so for popular
frameworks, but why do it for some other full stack frameworks and
some not?

* A framework like wheezy.web is considered "full stack" and is
highlighted in a table as such. I appreciate wheezy.web, but I really
think this is unfair to frameworks like Pyramid and Flask, which offer
more or less the same facilities. You can argue they offer some of
them through extensions, but so does wheezy.web. If you're going to
say wheezy.web is full stack, then so are Pyramid and Flask.

For a traditional Python full-stack framework I'd look for something
like tight database integration and a form generation system, like
Django has, or Grok has. wheezy.web is far more "roll your own". (For
a more modern full-stack framework a lot of it might be done
client-side instead)

Finally, I'm the developer of a non-big non-full-stack framework
called Morepath. I'd like to see it added to the page somewhere too.
(http://morepath.readthedocs.org).

If someone gives me editor access I can see about making some edits
myself, but I'd be happy if someone else took care of these concerns
too.

My account name is MartijnFaassen

Regards,

Martijn

From mal at egenix.com  Sun Dec 21 12:00:30 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 12:00:30 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] web frameworks page feedback
In-Reply-To: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5496A84E.7040102@egenix.com>

On 21.12.2014 00:14, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> [I'm not sure where discussion about the wiki content should go,
> perhaps not here, in which I apologize. please skip to read the
> bottom]
> 
> I noticed a recent change to the
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks that moved Grok (I
> framework I helped found) down from the popular frameworks. I agree
> with that move; it's not been popular for a while now and was never as
> popular as, say, Pyramid or Flask are now.
> 
> Here are some concerns I have with the current page:
> 
> * Frameworks that I consider are big and get a lot of attention such
> as Flask and Pyramid do not come under any "popular" heading. But they
> are very popular, and right now they're ranked with obscure things
> like BlueBream or Aquarium. I don't think this reflects the state of
> the Python community. If you're going to do popularity stuff at all,
> why not list some of the popular non-full stack frameworks?
>
> * Why are some frameworks in a table format (which gives them more
> attention, I think) and some not? I can see doing so for popular
> frameworks, but why do it for some other full stack frameworks and
> some not?
> 
> * A framework like wheezy.web is considered "full stack" and is
> highlighted in a table as such. I appreciate wheezy.web, but I really
> think this is unfair to frameworks like Pyramid and Flask, which offer
> more or less the same facilities. You can argue they offer some of
> them through extensions, but so does wheezy.web. If you're going to
> say wheezy.web is full stack, then so are Pyramid and Flask.
> 
> For a traditional Python full-stack framework I'd look for something
> like tight database integration and a form generation system, like
> Django has, or Grok has. wheezy.web is far more "roll your own". (For
> a more modern full-stack framework a lot of it might be done
> client-side instead)
> 
> Finally, I'm the developer of a non-big non-full-stack framework
> called Morepath. I'd like to see it added to the page somewhere too.
> (http://morepath.readthedocs.org).
> 
> If someone gives me editor access I can see about making some edits
> myself, but I'd be happy if someone else took care of these concerns
> too.
> 
> My account name is MartijnFaassen

I've added you to the editors. Happy editing !

Regarding this particular page, please have a look at the editorial
notes at the end of the page.

IMO, the table format makes the page look nicer, but someone should
then reorg all entries into this format.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 21 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From paul at boddie.org.uk  Sun Dec 21 14:28:58 2014
From: paul at boddie.org.uk (Paul Boddie)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 14:28:58 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] web frameworks page feedback
In-Reply-To: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201412211428.59995.paul@boddie.org.uk>

On Sunday 21. December 2014 00.14.01 Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> [I'm not sure where discussion about the wiki content should go,
> perhaps not here, in which I apologize. please skip to read the
> bottom]

I think this list is as good as any for discussion of the content.

> I noticed a recent change to the
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks that moved Grok (I
> framework I helped found) down from the popular frameworks. I agree
> with that move; it's not been popular for a while now and was never as
> popular as, say, Pyramid or Flask are now.
> 
> Here are some concerns I have with the current page:
> 
> * Frameworks that I consider are big and get a lot of attention such
> as Flask and Pyramid do not come under any "popular" heading. But they
> are very popular, and right now they're ranked with obscure things
> like BlueBream or Aquarium. I don't think this reflects the state of
> the Python community. If you're going to do popularity stuff at all,
> why not list some of the popular non-full stack frameworks?

The problem with popularity is that it is fluid. Originally, the notion was 
introduced into the page because people were unhappy that the "cool" 
frameworks (my choice of terminology, here) weren't being emphasised enough 
and that people were being shown too many options. One has to look even 
further back to see that the page and its predecessor were only ever intended 
to catalogue the available solutions and not offer advice.

At some stage, someone even wanted to remove all but the most popular 
frameworks, citing the meme going round the Python community at the time that 
people were overwhelmed with choice and that the way to deal with this was to 
remove evidence of choice. Perhaps they overlooked the fact that people who 
perceive there to be insufficient choice may then go and create their own Web 
framework in response. ;-)

> * Why are some frameworks in a table format (which gives them more
> attention, I think) and some not? I can see doing so for popular
> frameworks, but why do it for some other full stack frameworks and
> some not?

It looks like someone started converting the lists to table format and didn't 
finish:

https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks?action=recall&rev=423

It would have been a lot of dull work to do that, and I don't think it's worth 
the effort, really.

> * A framework like wheezy.web is considered "full stack" and is
> highlighted in a table as such. I appreciate wheezy.web, but I really
> think this is unfair to frameworks like Pyramid and Flask, which offer
> more or less the same facilities. You can argue they offer some of
> them through extensions, but so does wheezy.web. If you're going to
> say wheezy.web is full stack, then so are Pyramid and Flask.
> 
> For a traditional Python full-stack framework I'd look for something
> like tight database integration and a form generation system, like
> Django has, or Grok has. wheezy.web is far more "roll your own". (For
> a more modern full-stack framework a lot of it might be done
> client-side instead)

I think you've just described some of the problems with categorising things 
like Web frameworks. Unless a thorough job is done in presenting the 
characteristics of each solution, however, any categorisation will seem 
arbitrary. And again, people tend to get upset if you put any detail on a page 
like this because "it confuses people". (Personally, I think that the people 
who get upset should stick to their 140 character "tweets".)

> Finally, I'm the developer of a non-big non-full-stack framework
> called Morepath. I'd like to see it added to the page somewhere too.
> (http://morepath.readthedocs.org).
> 
> If someone gives me editor access I can see about making some edits
> myself, but I'd be happy if someone else took care of these concerns
> too.
> 
> My account name is MartijnFaassen

You sound like someone with sufficient enthusiasm for, and understanding of, 
the topic to be remedying some of these issues. :-)

Marc-Andr? mentioned the editorial notes on the page. I added these a long 
time ago, and they were really only intended to rein in some of the more 
extreme editing exercises going on at various points to "improve" the page. 
Some of the notes seem rather specific because they actually reference fairly 
destructive behaviour on the part of one contributor:

https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks?action=diff&rev1=91&rev2=92

(Of course, one gets described as a censor if one tries to prevent people 
wiping away other people's work because "they know best". There's another page 
I can think of where people have whined about choice and "confusion" before 
now, and I find that it's often the case that the people with the problem just 
happen to have a pet solution that they think everybody else should be using. 
That's quite a coincidence!)

Nevertheless, a new perspective is welcome for this page, and I encourage you 
to edit away. :-)

Paul

From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec 23 11:56:47 2014
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 05:56:47 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
Message-ID: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com>

Sorry if this is the wrong list to write to. You'll see why I'm here in 
just a minute.

I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a 
password reminder, but never got one, and I have some questions about 
creating a new list.

The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble 
using the lists, please contact mailman at python.org 
<mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I sent my questions there.

I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and 
to write to postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.

I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests 
to postmaster at charite.de. So I forwarded my questions there.

I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, 
"Thank you for your email. We'll work on email issues right away, all 
other issues will be ignored."  I don't know if my questions are 
considered email issues or not, so I don't know how long to wait before 
trying something else.

What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken 
on a number of levels.

Thanks, :( :(

--Ned.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20141223/d8ae08c1/attachment.html>

From mal at egenix.com  Tue Dec 23 12:55:33 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 12:55:33 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com>
References: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com>
Message-ID: <54995835.9010804@egenix.com>

On 23.12.2014 11:56, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> Sorry if this is the wrong list to write to. You'll see why I'm here in just a minute.
> 
> I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a password reminder, but never
> got one, and I have some questions about creating a new list.

Did you request this via the Mailman interface ? Perhaps it
got eaten by a spam filter.

Note that some MLs on python.org have the monthly reminders turned
off, so for those you need to request the reminder via the Mailman
list interface.

> The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
> mailman at python.org <mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I sent my questions there.
> 
> I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and to write to
> postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.
> 
> I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests to postmaster at charite.de. So
> I forwarded my questions there.
> 
> I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, "Thank you for your email.
> We'll work on email issues right away, all other issues will be ignored."  I don't know if my
> questions are considered email issues or not, so I don't know how long to wait before trying
> something else.
> 
> What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken on a number of levels.

postmaster at python.org should be able to help you with ML issues.

That said, it's holiday season now, so don't you can't really expect
the usual prompt reaction times of our postmasters :-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 23 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From ned at nedbatchelder.com  Tue Dec 23 13:56:41 2014
From: ned at nedbatchelder.com (Ned Batchelder)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 07:56:41 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <54995835.9010804@egenix.com>
References: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com> <54995835.9010804@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <54996689.80409@nedbatchelder.com>


On 12/23/14 6:55 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> On 23.12.2014 11:56, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> Sorry if this is the wrong list to write to. You'll see why I'm here in just a minute.
>>
>> I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a password reminder, but never
>> got one, and I have some questions about creating a new list.
> Did you request this via the Mailman interface ? Perhaps it
> got eaten by a spam filter.
>
> Note that some MLs on python.org have the monthly reminders turned
> off, so for those you need to request the reminder via the Mailman
> list interface.
Yes, I requested it with the button on the page.  Nothing in the gmail 
spam filter.
>
>> The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
>> mailman at python.org <mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I sent my questions there.
>>
>> I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and to write to
>> postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.
>>
>> I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests to postmaster at charite.de. So
>> I forwarded my questions there.
>>
>> I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, "Thank you for your email.
>> We'll work on email issues right away, all other issues will be ignored."  I don't know if my
>> questions are considered email issues or not, so I don't know how long to wait before trying
>> something else.
>>
>> What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken on a number of levels.
> postmaster at python.org should be able to help you with ML issues.
As I mentioned above, I sent an email to postmaster at python.org, and got 
a German reply that led me down a fruitless path.
>
> That said, it's holiday season now, so don't you can't really expect
> the usual prompt reaction times of our postmasters :-)
>
:-(  The automated responses that are the email equivalent of >/dev/null 
are very prompt! :-(

--Ned.

From mal at egenix.com  Tue Dec 23 14:37:27 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 14:37:27 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <54996689.80409@nedbatchelder.com>
References: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com> <54995835.9010804@egenix.com>
 <54996689.80409@nedbatchelder.com>
Message-ID: <54997017.5090603@egenix.com>

On 23.12.2014 13:56, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> 
> On 12/23/14 6:55 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> On 23.12.2014 11:56, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>>> Sorry if this is the wrong list to write to. You'll see why I'm here in just a minute.
>>>
>>> I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a password reminder, but never
>>> got one, and I have some questions about creating a new list.
>> Did you request this via the Mailman interface ? Perhaps it
>> got eaten by a spam filter.
>>
>> Note that some MLs on python.org have the monthly reminders turned
>> off, so for those you need to request the reminder via the Mailman
>> list interface.
>
> Yes, I requested it with the button on the page.  Nothing in the gmail spam filter.

Hmm, that would indeed require some investigation into the logs.

Could you try the same with one of the other MLs you are subscribed
to ?

Note that it's possible to change the password globally on python.org
if you know at least one of the ML passwords for your account. This may
be a workaround for your problem.

>>> The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
>>> mailman at python.org <mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I sent my questions there.
>>>
>>> I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and to write to
>>> postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.
>>>
>>> I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests to postmaster at charite.de. So
>>> I forwarded my questions there.
>>>
>>> I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, "Thank you for your email.
>>> We'll work on email issues right away, all other issues will be ignored."  I don't know if my
>>> questions are considered email issues or not, so I don't know how long to wait before trying
>>> something else.
>>>
>>> What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken on a number of levels.
>> postmaster at python.org should be able to help you with ML issues.
>
> As I mentioned above, I sent an email to postmaster at python.org, and got a German reply that led me
> down a fruitless path.

Two of our postmasters are Germans, that's probably why you got
this response.

>> That said, it's holiday season now, so don't you can't really expect
>> the usual prompt reaction times of our postmasters :-)
>>
> :-(  The automated responses that are the email equivalent of >/dev/null are very prompt! :-(

I'd say: wait two weeks and try again :-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 23 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 23 17:23:18 2014
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 11:23:18 -0500
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com>
References: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com>
Message-ID: <20141223112318.0f97c590@limelight.wooz.org>

CC'ing in postmaster.

On Dec 23, 2014, at 05:56 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:

>I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a password
>reminder, but never got one, and I have some questions about creating a new
>list.

I just tried it with the 'playground' mailing list and it worked just fine.  I
got the password reminder within minutes.  FWIW, the playground list is just
that, a dummy list that the postmasters can use to experiment with the live
Mailman system on mpo.  I'm not sure why you haven't gotten you password
reminder.

>The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble using the
>lists, please contact mailman at python.org <mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I
>sent my questions there.

That's pretty much a canned listinfo overview page.  We could hack that to
explicitly name postmaster at python.org.  mailman at python.org is the site list,
and until just now, only myself and Ralf were members of that list, and my
delivery is disabled.  I just added postmaster at python.org to that mailing
list, so it should forward everything to the postmasters.

>I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and to
>write to postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.

Yep, that's Mailman's replybot.

>I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests to
>postmaster at charite.de. So I forwarded my questions there.

Yep, that's probably Ralf's replybot. ;)

>I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, "Thank
>you for your email. We'll work on email issues right away, all other issues
>will be ignored."  I don't know if my questions are considered email issues
>or not, so I don't know how long to wait before trying something else.
>
>What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken on a
>number of levels.

postmaster at python.org is the right place ultimately for all things email for
python.org.  I'm not sure whether the postmasters read pydotorg-www.  As MAL
points out, it's the typical slow holiday season, so response may be delayed.

Cheers,
-Barry

From alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com  Sun Dec 21 16:54:02 2014
From: alanoe at linux.vnet.ibm.com (Alan Evangelista)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:54:02 -0200
Subject: [pydotorg-www] web frameworks page feedback
In-Reply-To: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGT4ZFiWB0vq6Pjxoiyb6A+jp5xmwOys+E8HLeihd+LYKjn3hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5496ED1A.8030500@linux.vnet.ibm.com>

On 12/20/2014 09:14 PM, Martijn Faassen wrote:
> I noticed a recent change to the
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/WebFrameworks that moved Grok (I
> framework I helped found) down from the popular frameworks. I agree
> with that move; it's not been popular for a while now and was never as
> popular as, say, Pyramid or Flask are now.

I was the one responsible for that change.

> * Frameworks that I consider are big and get a lot of attention such
> as Flask and Pyramid do not come under any "popular" heading. But they
> are very popular, and right now they're ranked with obscure things
> like BlueBream or Aquarium. I don't think this reflects the state of
> the Python community. If you're going to do popularity stuff at all,
> why not list some of the popular non-full stack frameworks?

+1. I have mentioned before this here in this mailing list. I'll create 
a "popular" subsection
for the non-full-stack frameworks.


> * Why are some frameworks in a table format (which gives them more
> attention, I think) and some not? I can see doing so for popular
> frameworks, but why do it for some other full stack frameworks and
> some not?

+1. imho everything could be in table format, just need someone to do it.

Also, I'd keep only summary and last version number/release date and
a link to frameworks features comparison in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#Python_2 
.
imho comparing some well-defined criteria such as activity/size of open 
source community
and list of features is the best way to compare web frameworks, 
otherwise the discussion
is subjective.


> * A framework like wheezy.web is considered "full stack" and is
> highlighted in a table as such. I appreciate wheezy.web, but I really
> think this is unfair to frameworks like Pyramid and Flask, which offer
> more or less the same facilities. You can argue they offer some of
> them through extensions, but so does wheezy.web. If you're going to
> say wheezy.web is full stack, then so are Pyramid and Flask.

I agree wheezy.web should be moved to non-full-stack framework section.

imho a full-stack framework should have:
- WSGI support
- HTTP request parsing
- HTTP response generation helpers
- form, cookies and sessions handling
- URL routing
- separation of UI and application logic code (usually MVC support)
- templating
- caching
- persistent data access
- authentication and authorization
- security helpers
- internationalization
- management of static files (static from the perspective of the server).

Most web frameworks rely on an external popular ORM to handle persistent 
data access
(most often SQLAlchemy) and thus are not full-stack frameworks.

imho we should either (1) have a clear definition of what a full-stack 
framework is
in the wiki and reorganize the lists to follow that or (2) remove the 
distinction
between full-stack and non-full-stack frameworks and simply point to a 
features comparison
list.


Regards,
Alan Evangelista


From p at sys4.de  Tue Dec 23 14:28:26 2014
From: p at sys4.de (Patrick Ben Koetter)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 14:28:26 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Help with mailing lists?
In-Reply-To: <54996689.80409@nedbatchelder.com>
References: <54994A6F.2070505@nedbatchelder.com> <54995835.9010804@egenix.com>
 <54996689.80409@nedbatchelder.com>
Message-ID: <20141223132826.GA7783@sys4.de>

Ned,

sorry for the reply in German. That was Ralf's personal business mail
responder.

Could you repeat your questions and I will see to anwer them?

Thanks

p at rick


* Ned Batchelder <ned at nedbatchelder.com>:
> 
> On 12/23/14 6:55 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> >On 23.12.2014 11:56, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> >>Sorry if this is the wrong list to write to. You'll see why I'm here in just a minute.
> >>
> >>I needed some help with some mail lists at mail.python.org: I need a password reminder, but never
> >>got one, and I have some questions about creating a new list.
> >Did you request this via the Mailman interface ? Perhaps it
> >got eaten by a spam filter.
> >
> >Note that some MLs on python.org have the monthly reminders turned
> >off, so for those you need to request the reminder via the Mailman
> >list interface.
> Yes, I requested it with the button on the page.  Nothing in the
> gmail spam filter.
> >
> >>The page at http://mail.python.org says, "If you are having trouble using the lists, please contact
> >>mailman at python.org <mailto:mailman at python.org>," so I sent my questions there.
> >>
> >>I got an automated response email that said that no one will answer, and to write to
> >>postmaster at python.org.  I forwarded my questions there.
> >>
> >>I got an automated response email in German that said to send requests to postmaster at charite.de. So
> >>I forwarded my questions there.
> >>
> >>I got an automated response email (in German and English!) that said, "Thank you for your email.
> >>We'll work on email issues right away, all other issues will be ignored."  I don't know if my
> >>questions are considered email issues or not, so I don't know how long to wait before trying
> >>something else.
> >>
> >>What should I do now?  Any ideas who I can contact? Things seem broken on a number of levels.
> >postmaster at python.org should be able to help you with ML issues.
> As I mentioned above, I sent an email to postmaster at python.org, and
> got a German reply that led me down a fruitless path.
> >
> >That said, it's holiday season now, so don't you can't really expect
> >the usual prompt reaction times of our postmasters :-)
> >
> :-(  The automated responses that are the email equivalent of
> >/dev/null are very prompt! :-(
> 
> --Ned.
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www

-- 
[*] sys4 AG
 
https://sys4.de, +49 (89) 30 90 46 64
Franziskanerstra?e 15, 81669 M?nchen
 
Sitz der Gesellschaft: M?nchen, Amtsgericht M?nchen: HRB 199263
Vorstand: Patrick Ben Koetter, Marc Schiffbauer
Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Florian Kirstein
 

From s at zeid.me  Tue Dec 23 22:13:40 2014
From: s at zeid.me (Scott Zeid)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 21:13:40 +0000
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Wiki editing permissions
Message-ID: <CAJKrh+Vn=gkkDtHLSSzP1MkwPJm4OQvqo0VOLMerAnd-=+StoA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, I would like to be added to the EditorsGroup on <
https://wiki.python.org/moin/>.  My username is ScottZeid and I would like
to change the URL for an application of mine (AppBackup) that is listed on <
https://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications#Mobile_Applications>.

Thanks,
Scott Zeid
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pydotorg-www/attachments/20141223/4e45336c/attachment.html>

From mal at egenix.com  Wed Dec 24 13:10:33 2014
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2014 13:10:33 +0100
Subject: [pydotorg-www] Wiki editing permissions
In-Reply-To: <CAJKrh+Vn=gkkDtHLSSzP1MkwPJm4OQvqo0VOLMerAnd-=+StoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJKrh+Vn=gkkDtHLSSzP1MkwPJm4OQvqo0VOLMerAnd-=+StoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <549AAD39.7080505@egenix.com>

Added. Happy editing and Merry Christmas !

On 23.12.2014 22:13, Scott Zeid wrote:
> Hi, I would like to be added to the EditorsGroup on <
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/>.  My username is ScottZeid and I would like
> to change the URL for an application of mine (AppBackup) that is listed on <
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/Applications#Mobile_Applications>.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott Zeid
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> pydotorg-www mailing list
> pydotorg-www at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pydotorg-www
> 

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Dec 24 2014)
>>> Python Projects, Coaching and Consulting ...  http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC Plone/Zope Database Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________
2014-12-11: Released mxODBC Plone/Zope DA 2.2.0   http://egenix.com/go67

::::: Try our mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From luis at delaorden.info  Sat Dec 27 20:20:56 2014
From: luis at delaorden.info (Luis de la Orden)
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 19:20:56 +0000 (WET)
Subject: [pydotorg-www] I'd like to edit OutOfPrintBooks page
Message-ID: <1555173491.11230.1419708056069.JavaMail.open-xchange@app2.ox.privateemail.com>

Hello:

I'd like to edit in the wiki, so I could start from a non-critical page:
OutOfPrintBooks (https://wiki.python.org/moin/OutOfPrintBooks) I have seen some
dead links and it is not updated since 2008.  This two webpages have a list of
outdated books that I could add, too:

http://www.rmi.net/~lutz/pybooks.html
http://www.sdragons.org/Bibliographies/python.html

Could you add me to the EditorsGroup, please?


Yours sincerely:

Luis de la Orden (user: LuisdelaOrden)