[pypy-svn] r17151 - pypy/extradoc/minute
hpk at codespeak.net
hpk at codespeak.net
Thu Sep 1 14:45:03 CEST 2005
Author: hpk
Date: Thu Sep 1 14:45:01 2005
New Revision: 17151
Added:
pypy/extradoc/minute/pypy-sync-09-01-2005.txt
Log:
minutes for today's pypy-sync meeting.
next meeting is being moderated by Armin's.
Added: pypy/extradoc/minute/pypy-sync-09-01-2005.txt
==============================================================================
--- (empty file)
+++ pypy/extradoc/minute/pypy-sync-09-01-2005.txt Thu Sep 1 14:45:01 2005
@@ -0,0 +1,253 @@
+=============================================
+pypy-sync developer meeting 1st September
+=============================================
+
+Time & location: 1pm (30 minutes) at #pypy-sync
+
+Attendees::
+
+ Samuele Pedroni,
+ Anders Lehmann,
+ Ludovic Aubrien,
+ Adrien Di Mascio,
+ Christian Tismer,
+ Armin Rigo, Carl Friedrich Bolz (later)
+ Holger Krekel (minutes/moderation)
+
+Regular Topics
+====================
+
+- activity reports (3 prepared lines of info).
+ All Attendees submitted activity reports (see `IRC-Log`_
+ at the end and 'LAST/NEXT/BLOCKERS' entries in particular)
+
+- resolve conflicts/blockers
+ No conflicts were discovered.
+
+Topics of the week
+===================
+
+Recap of discussed development areas until October
+-------------------------------------------------------
+
+Everyone agreed that we want to deal with cleanups
+and simplification refactorings until the Paris
+Sprint rather than optimizations. Optimizations should only
+be tackled for "low hanging fruits" which is defined to have
+a good ratio of LOCs against speedup. For example,
+the recent specializations of function calls which lead
+to a speed-up by 2-3 times were considered as having
+a good ratio. Moreover we looked in more detail
+at the following cleanup/refactoring issues:
+
+- bringing the compiler to good state. Ludovic and
+ Adrien with help from Samuele and Arre will work
+ on making the current 'astcompiler' the (translateable)
+ and compliant default compiler.
+
+- the translation driving (translate_pypy.py and friends)
+
+ Anders Lehmann is going to work on this and Armin has
+ some refactored code and intends to help Anders along
+ with Samuele. Eric will keep an eye on having LLVM
+ properly integrated.
+
+- improved test/reporting support. Holger intends to
+ work on this.
+
+
+Paris Sprint announcement
+-----------------------------------------------
+
+Ludovic is going to prepare a Paris Sprint announcement
+tomorrow with help from Holger. The meeting reconfirms
+the following sprint topics:
+
+ - threading and GC
+ - refactoring/translation features
+ - start on JIT/optimizations/stackless
+
+Preparation/Moderation Next pypy-sync meeting
+--------------------------------------------------
+
+Armin, Anders L. and Christian are ready to prepare
+the next three pypy-sync meetings, respectively:
+
+ 8th September: Armin
+ 15th September: Christian
+ 22rd September: Anders L.
+
+We'll see who is going to do the next pypy-sync
+meetings after that.
+
+Closing
+------------------
+
+Holger closes the meeting in time at 13:26pm.
+
+.. _`IRC-log`:
+
+Here is the full IRC log::
+
+ **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Aug 18 12:59:41 2005
+
+ Sep 01 12:53:14 --> You are now talking on #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 12:56:18 --> pedronis (n=Samuele_ at c-398b70d5.022-54-67626719.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) has joined #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 12:56:24 --> stakkars (i=pyanan at i577B4CC6.versanet.de) has joined #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 13:02:03 <hpk> i guess we start (hope arigo drops over soon)
+ Sep 01 13:02:18 <hpk> here is the agenda (as mailed yesterday):
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> - activity reports (3 prepared lines of info).
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> - resolve conflicts/blockers
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> *Topics of the week*
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> - Recap of discussed development areas until October
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> - Paris Sprint announcement
+ Sep 01 13:02:21 <hpk> - Preparation/Moderation next pypy-sync meeting
+ Sep 01 13:02:22 --> ludal (n=ludal at logilab.net2.nerim.net) has joined #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 13:02:53 <hpk> let's start with activity reports in this order:
+ Sep 01 13:03:02 <hpk> adim,aleale,ericvrp,hpk,ludal,pedronis,stakkars
+ Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim> LAST: none
+ Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim> NEXT: astcompiler
+ Sep 01 13:03:24 <adim> BLOCKERS: none
+ Sep 01 13:03:28 <aleale> This week: recover from Heidelberg, clean-up _codecs, planning of wp 9 and 10
+ Sep 01 13:03:30 <stakkars> how about reverse,mine is in the clipboad
+ Sep 01 13:03:37 <aleale> Next week: more cleanups, more planning, some compliancy issues
+ Sep 01 13:03:45 <aleale> Blockers : -
+ Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk> LAST: heidelberg sprint, reporting, mailing
+ Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk> NEXT: steps towards better test reporting and general refactoring
+ Sep 01 13:03:52 <hpk> BLOCKERS: None
+ Sep 01 13:04:03 <ericvrp> last: slotified llvm backend, bugfixes, added gc atomic calls to genc
+ Sep 01 13:04:04 <ericvrp> next: test experimental llvm escape analysis
+ Sep 01 13:04:06 <ericvrp> blockers: -
+ Sep 01 13:04:30 <hpk> stakkars: go ahead if you can't keep your clipboard content :)
+ Sep 01 13:04:30 <pedronis> LAST: sprint, small fixes, looked a bit at performance
+ Sep 01 13:04:32 <pedronis> NEXT: report planning with Armin, cleanups/help with compiler
+ Sep 01 13:04:33 <pedronis> BLOCKERS: how we want to distribute cleanups work/design
+ Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal> Last week: sprint then none
+ Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal> Next week: astcompiler
+ Sep 01 13:04:55 <ludal> blockers: none
+ Sep 01 13:05:18 <stakkars> DONE: reimplemented list overallocation in low-level, removing it from listobject
+ Sep 01 13:05:25 <stakkars> NEXT: making dictionaries low-level, maybe looking into trusted refcounting.
+ Sep 01 13:05:31 <stakkars> BLOCK: maybe a missing interface between lowlevel types that prevents malicious use of fields
+ Sep 01 13:06:07 <hpk> ok, pedronis's blocker is a topic of this meeting
+ Sep 01 13:06:19 <hpk> and stakkars blocker should be discussed on #pypy i guess
+ Sep 01 13:06:40 <stakkars> yes
+ Sep 01 13:06:49 <hpk> ok, first topic of the week:
+ Sep 01 13:06:54 <hpk> Recap of discussed development areas until October
+ Sep 01 13:07:14 <hpk> we said that we want to focus on cleanups/refactoring until we start with otpm,ization wp06-XX efforts in october
+ Sep 01 13:07:29 <hpk> the three areas i wrote down at last sprint:
+ Sep 01 13:07:33 <hpk> compiler
+ Sep 01 13:07:34 <hpk> translation driving
+ Sep 01 13:07:42 <hpk> testing stuff
+ Sep 01 13:07:51 <hpk> is there anything that is missing or different opinions?
+ Sep 01 13:08:13 <aleale> consolodating the use of _codecs
+ Sep 01 13:08:28 <hpk> in which sense?
+ Sep 01 13:08:41 <aleale> The same algoritm of escaped strings is at least 33 places
+ Sep 01 13:08:49 <aleale> s/33/3
+ Sep 01 13:09:18 <aleale> there might be more
+ Sep 01 13:09:20 <pedronis> at least the string one needs to be at interp-level for bootstrapping reason
+ Sep 01 13:09:47 <aleale> ok lets defer it #pypy
+ Sep 01 13:09:52 <hpk> ok
+ Sep 01 13:09:53 --> arigo (n=arigo at pdpc/supporter/sustaining/arigo) has joined #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 13:10:12 <hpk> ludal,adim: you are aware that arre and samuele are willing to help with astcompiler and the compiler efforts?
+ Sep 01 13:10:31 <ludal> now yes :)
+ Sep 01 13:10:49 <hpk> ludal: it also is in the technical board minutes from heidelberg
+ Sep 01 13:11:00 <hpk> jsut so you know
+ Sep 01 13:11:14 <ludal> it needs to become translatable, and probably we'll then have to repass the compliance tests
+ Sep 01 13:11:28 <hpk> stakkars: so simplifying/unifying our dict implementations also goes in the camp of refactoring/cleanups i guess
+ Sep 01 13:11:45 <stakkars> quick question: how clear is what we are doing when? Do we want to work sequentially or do some
+ Sep 01 13:11:58 <stakkars> optimization in parallel? I'm asking since this has happened already.
+ Sep 01 13:12:15 <hpk> i know, i am more in the camp of not tackling too much optimization
+ Sep 01 13:12:32 <hpk> but rather get our code base into better shape
+ Sep 01 13:13:04 <stakkars> I think there are different opinions form what I see happending. We should be clear about this.
+ Sep 01 13:13:07 <hpk> it is open who is going to work on improving translate_pypy and friends
+ Sep 01 13:13:22 <pedronis> the optimisation that was done had an enormous number of lines/efforts speed up ratio
+ Sep 01 13:13:37 <pedronis> unless there is some other such very low hanging fruit
+ Sep 01 13:13:50 <pedronis> I think cleanups take precedence
+ Sep 01 13:13:57 <hpk> yes, i agree
+ Sep 01 13:14:12 <pedronis> othewise they risk to never to be done
+ Sep 01 13:14:12 <stakkars> I se, it was the "very much issue". Then I will trash my list overallocation.
+ Sep 01 13:14:28 <hpk> everyone else agrees with "only very good ratios of LoC/speed ups" are ok?
+ Sep 01 13:14:32 <ludal> maybe looking at the possible optimization would help coming up with a more flexible design
+ Sep 01 13:14:51 <pedronis> stakkars: ?
+ Sep 01 13:15:02 <pedronis> trashing done work doesn't seem a good idea
+ Sep 01 13:15:12 <stakkars> at least we should do considerations. I found some corner cases on list allocation,
+ Sep 01 13:15:23 <aleale> I aggree to only addres low hanging fruits at this time
+ Sep 01 13:15:30 <stakkars> which need a bit of discussion, because optimization is hard wihtout knowledge of GC
+ Sep 01 13:16:01 <hpk> is anyone here ready to tackle translate_pypy cleanups?
+ Sep 01 13:16:02 <stakkars> low-hanging fruit is ok. What do I do if the fruit wasn't that sleshy, after all? :-)
+ Sep 01 13:16:08 <stakkars> yes
+ Sep 01 13:16:36 <aleale> hpk: yes
+ Sep 01 13:16:47 <arigo> I started some time ago something about cleaning up Translator
+ Sep 01 13:17:00 <arigo> but I'm not sure I'd like to finish it right now (it looks like work)
+ Sep 01 13:17:15 <hpk> arigo: :-)
+ Sep 01 13:17:22 <arigo> for me, outlining the reports' content and starting on them is higher priority
+ Sep 01 13:17:38 <stakkars> on cleaning up dictionaries, this gives both speed and nicer source.Postpone as well?
+ Sep 01 13:17:39 <aleale> makes sense
+ Sep 01 13:17:55 <hpk> right, ok. then aleale can give it a go and whoever wants to join.
+ Sep 01 13:18:12 <pedronis> I can help
+ Sep 01 13:18:17 <hpk> great
+ Sep 01 13:18:20 <hpk> i think we can close this topic now (there also is and should be discussion on pypy-dev regarding some of the topics)
+ Sep 01 13:18:26 <pedronis> but it has less priority than reports and compiler
+ Sep 01 13:18:27 <ericvrp> I will keep checking if it's still llvm compatible
+ Sep 01 13:18:34 <hpk> pedronis: sure
+ Sep 01 13:18:35 <stakkars> ok, I misunderstood the sudden massive speedup-checkins, it was just a big fruit, right?
+ Sep 01 13:18:51 <hpk> yes, a factor of 2-3 speedup in pystones
+ Sep 01 13:19:03 <pedronis> and richards
+ Sep 01 13:19:06 <stakkars> (and I got just 5 percent)
+ Sep 01 13:19:11 <arigo> pedronis: what do you mean by compiler ?
+ Sep 01 13:19:27 <hpk> arigo: we discussed this earlier, the translateable astcompiler
+ Sep 01 13:19:28 <pedronis> helping logilab making it translatable
+ Sep 01 13:19:30 <ludal> translate it
+ Sep 01 13:19:34 <arigo> hpk: ah, sorry of course
+ Sep 01 13:19:40 <hpk> please next topic: Paris Sprint announcement
+ Sep 01 13:20:04 <hpk> adim, ludal: do you intend to draft up an annoucnement in extradoc/sprintinfo/paris-annoucnement.txt?
+ Sep 01 13:20:20 <ludal> yes, I'll do that tomorrow
+ Sep 01 13:20:35 <hpk> ok, i can help you a bit.
+ Sep 01 13:20:44 <hpk> do we still agree on the topics?
+ Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk> - threading and GC
+ Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk> - refactoring/translation features
+ Sep 01 13:20:50 <hpk> - start discussing/heading for JIT/optimizations/stackless
+ Sep 01 13:20:53 <ludal> thanks
+ Sep 01 13:21:26 <arigo> yes
+ Sep 01 13:21:31 <aleale> yes
+ Sep 01 13:21:40 <adim> seems good to me
+ Sep 01 13:21:54 <ludal> yes
+ Sep 01 13:22:16 <arigo> "finish up reports in a hurry" shouldn't probably be announced :-)
+ Sep 01 13:22:24 <pedronis> :)
+ Sep 01 13:22:37 <hpk> one more thing i'd like to consider (but it needn't go into the announcement) is the issue of easing porting of C-modules for developers new to pypy
+ Sep 01 13:22:54 <pedronis> yes, also refactoring Translator is probably related what we want to do in phase2
+ Sep 01 13:23:01 <pedronis> so maybe it can partly wait for paris
+ Sep 01 13:23:01 <hpk> yes
+ Sep 01 13:23:28 <hpk> ok, that's it for the paris sprint/annoucnement for now, i guess.
+ Sep 01 13:23:42 <hpk> last topic: Preparation/Moderation Next pypy-sync meeting
+ Sep 01 13:24:11 --> cfbolz (n=carlson at hdlb-d9b945fb.pool.mediaWays.net) has joined #pypy-sync
+ Sep 01 13:24:14 <hpk> who would like to do it the next time? (Can be multiple people so we can rotate a bit)
+ Sep 01 13:24:18 <hpk> cfbolz: good morning
+ Sep 01 13:24:26 <arigo> I could do it
+ Sep 01 13:24:28 <cfbolz> sorry
+ Sep 01 13:24:35 <stakkars> i can do it.
+ Sep 01 13:24:42 <aleale> I'd like to volonteer
+ Sep 01 13:25:03 <stakkars> ok, let's pick a random number.
+ Sep 01 13:25:08 <ericvrp> 42
+ Sep 01 13:25:17 <stakkars> 49. mine is higher.
+ Sep 01 13:25:29 <hpk> great, then maybe just arigo, stakkars, aleale in that order?
+ Sep 01 13:25:40 <hpk> let me just note that so far i had to come up with topics for the meetings myself
+ Sep 01 13:25:46 <stakkars> wise man spoke :-)
+ Sep 01 13:26:39 <stakkars> 4 minutes left, is there some opne point?
+ Sep 01 13:26:42 <arigo> ok, then I will do the next week one
+ Sep 01 13:27:00 <hpk> and it would probably help the new moderators if at least sometimes topics are pushed to them
+ Sep 01 13:27:10 <arigo> indeed :-)
+ Sep 01 13:27:28 <hpk> but part of the game is identifying what would benefit from pypy-sync attention and decisions
+ Sep 01 13:27:37 <hpk> :-)
+ Sep 01 13:27:52 <hpk> ok, then let me close my last pypy-sync meeting for a few weeks :-)
+ Sep 01 13:28:06 * arigo claps
+ Sep 01 13:28:08 <cfbolz> should I post my lines?
+ Sep 01 13:28:17 <stakkars> do it,not ask
+ Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz> LAST: worked on/finished summer of code project on GC
+ Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz> NEXT: PyPy unrelated stuff (another exam)
+ Sep 01 13:28:19 <cfbolz> BLOCKER: some sort of strange behaviour under python 2.3
+ Sep 01 13:28:33 <hpk> cfbolz: congrats, btw!
+ Sep 01 13:28:59 <stakkars> cfbolz: please tell about the behavior on #pypy
+ Sep 01 13:29:04 <cfbolz> :-)
+ Sep 01 13:29:35 <cfbolz> ok
+ Sep 01 13:29:39 <-- cfbolz (n=carlson at hdlb-d9b945fb.pool.mediaWays.net) has left #pypy-sync ("Verlassend")
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