[pypy-dev] (no subject)

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 01:26:53AM +0200, lac at openend.se wrote:
> Hello gang.
> 
> Mario Reingart has been trying to internationalise CPython
> since at least 2012.
[...]

I've just added this comment to the issue on the bug tracker:

====
For what it's worth, there are at least two localised versions of 
Python: Teuton and ChinesePython. As far as I know, ChinesePython is 
still in active development. Both translate the keywords and builtins, 
to German and Chinese respectively. I don't have a link, but I recall 
that Guido gave his blessing for ChinesePython to call itself a Python 
implementation.

There's a localised, Portuguese version of Stack Overflow:

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/02/cant-we-all-be-reasonable-and-speak-english/

so I think that the days when all programmers must learn English are 
slowly fading away, just like the days when all mathematicians had to 
learn German.

But, I agree with those who say that a PEP is necessary. There are a lot 
of factors to consider. (Although of course as a third-party library, no 
PEP would be needed.)
====  

http://bugs.python.org/issue16344


> He's written a PEP about it, which apparantly isn't in the list of
> PEPs anywhere, and has had this discussion, such as it was on the
> python-dev mailing list.

Anyone can write a PEP and have it sit on their computer's hard drive. 
Unless he follows the process for submitting it for discussion, it might 
as well not exist.


> My idea is that it would be good to intenationalise
> PyPy and then we can capture all the
> people who want to teach Python in the non-english speaking world.
[...]
> Poor old Mariano has been fighting this fight since before 2012.
> He is sad and unhappy.  Mostly he is sad and unhappy because people
> won't discuss what he wants, or move from -- ideals fine, implementation
> well, would be better this way --- or any sort of reasonable discussion.
> 'Hung out to dry' comes to mind.

Looking at the volume of comments on the issue at the tracker link 
above, I don't think Mariano has been *ignored*. Possibly the 
conservativism of Python-Dev has struck again. There was a lot of 
resistance to the idea of allowing non-ASCII identifiers when that was 
first proposed too. 

My own feeling is that CPython should not internationalise error 
messages *yet*. But I would like to see a third-party implementation, 
possibly something that can be switched on and off at the interactive 
interpreter, or in iPython, and see how useful it is. But that's 
something which can be discussed in the PEP.

> I sincerely suspect that the people here will support this idea,
> but may  argue that in pypy there are better ways to do it, and, well
> we will get it done.  But in any case, please be kind to Mariano,
> since he has already suffered enough for the cause.
> 
> ps -- funding it comes later.  I'd like to get Mariano paid.
> But I'd like to get some sort of idea that we want to go forward
> with this before I make a different note on how I would like to
> approach funding this.

I think that if Mariano had a proof of concept, and evidence that it 
would be useful in practice as well as theory, then I think the PSF 
should be asked to consider funding this as a diversity measure.


-- 
Steve