From trent.nelson at snakebite.org  Mon Feb  2 08:40:18 2009
From: trent.nelson at snakebite.org (Trent Nelson)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:40:18 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] [snakebite] I've got a surprise for you!
In-Reply-To: <D778B477-30BD-48B8-A181-4FFC159158CA@python.org>
References: <20090126233246.GA37662@wind.teleri.net>
	<20090127200138.GA51052@wind.teleri.net>
	<49808D12.8000009@egenix.com>
	<D778B477-30BD-48B8-A181-4FFC159158CA@python.org>
Message-ID: <20090202074018.GD60708@wind.teleri.net>

On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 01:29:21PM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jan 28, 2009, at 11:51 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> 
> > On 2009-01-27 21:01, Trent Nelson wrote:
> >>    I've just set up a mailing list for those that want to carry on  
> >> with
> >>    discussions; this CC list is getting a bit unwieldy.  Subscription
> >>    URL: http://groups.google.com/group/snakebite-list. E-mail address
> >>    is snakebite-list at googlegroups.com.
> >>
> >>    I'll be sending the rest of my replies there after this e-mail.
> >
> > Would it be possible to have such a mailing list setup on python.org ?
> > Or perhaps have Mailman running on snakebite.org ?
> 
> +1 for either.  Send a message to postmaster at python.org if you want  
> the former.  It should definitely be approved.

    I'll follow up with the interested parties in private.

        Trent.

From brett at python.org  Tue Feb 10 20:01:11 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:01:11 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Give Daniel Diniz Developer access on the
	tracker?
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902101101m6065479cia45f4b771c58c89@mail.gmail.com>

Daniel seems to be plowing through issues on the tracker and apparently
Antoine has suggested he be added to the Developer role on the tracker. Any
objections?

-Brett
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From guido at python.org  Tue Feb 10 20:07:10 2009
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:07:10 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Give Daniel Diniz Developer access on the
	tracker?
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902101101m6065479cia45f4b771c58c89@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902101101m6065479cia45f4b771c58c89@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20902101107x7a0b58eh4c469646b803ad55@mail.gmail.com>

Let's do it!

On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> Daniel seems to be plowing through issues on the tracker and apparently
> Antoine has suggested he be added to the Developer role on the tracker. Any
> objections?



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 12 23:47:25 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:47:25 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] release30-maint freeze in 15 minutes
Message-ID: <A5CD6226-3641-4789-B92A-132D8D2BA2B2@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am placing a freeze on the release30-maint branch in 15 minutes.  At  
that point I will sanity check the release and tag it for Martin and  
Ronald to build the binaries.

Please check with me on irc before you commit anything to this branch,  
until further notice.  Please remember that I'm not actually making  
the release until tomorrow.

Thanks,
Barry

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From python at rcn.com  Fri Feb 13 00:00:50 2009
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:00:50 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] release30-maint freeze in 15 minutes
References: <A5CD6226-3641-4789-B92A-132D8D2BA2B2@python.org>
Message-ID: <D6230A6BCAAF4D9EB26A98F5EDF5BDF0@RaymondLaptop1>

> I am placing a freeze on the release30-maint branch in 15 minutes. 

Yea!  3.0.1 is on its way :-)


Raymond

From barry at python.org  Fri Feb 13 01:09:01 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:09:01 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Python 3.0.1 is tagged
Message-ID: <D006A30C-5427-4C1E-A9FE-BF92CBE02885@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

But the release30-maint tree is still frozen until the release,  
scheduled for about 23 hours from now.  Ping me in irc if you find any  
brown baggable problems.

Ronald, Martin, do you thing!

Barry

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From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Fri Feb 13 08:17:22 2009
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:17:22 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Python 3.0.1 is tagged
In-Reply-To: <D006A30C-5427-4C1E-A9FE-BF92CBE02885@python.org>
References: <D006A30C-5427-4C1E-A9FE-BF92CBE02885@python.org>
Message-ID: <FFCBCB63-255F-4D85-8968-6F1ECEE80B3F@mac.com>


On 13 Feb, 2009, at 1:09, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> But the release30-maint tree is still frozen until the release,  
> scheduled for about 23 hours from now.  Ping me in irc if you find  
> any brown baggable problems.
>
> Ronald, Martin, do you thing!

That won't be until late tonight (around midnight CET) I'm afraid. At  
least there will be a OSX installer this time ;-)

Ronald

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From barry at python.org  Fri Feb 13 14:18:08 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:18:08 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Python 3.0.1 is tagged
In-Reply-To: <FFCBCB63-255F-4D85-8968-6F1ECEE80B3F@mac.com>
References: <D006A30C-5427-4C1E-A9FE-BF92CBE02885@python.org>
	<FFCBCB63-255F-4D85-8968-6F1ECEE80B3F@mac.com>
Message-ID: <75FC6FCE-9268-44EB-9B53-9C9D85B58CB5@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Feb 13, 2009, at 2:17 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote:

> On 13 Feb, 2009, at 1:09, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> But the release30-maint tree is still frozen until the release,  
>> scheduled for about 23 hours from now.  Ping me in irc if you find  
>> any brown baggable problems.
>>
>> Ronald, Martin, do you thing!
>
> That won't be until late tonight (around midnight CET) I'm afraid.  
> At least there will be a OSX installer this time ;-)

Excellent, thanks.  Midnight CET is 6pm US/Eastern which is right  
about the time I'll start to build the release.  As always, ping me on  
irc if you want to coordinate.

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Sat Feb 14 03:23:27 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:23:27 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Python 3.0.1 is released...
Message-ID: <6A7CB82A-662C-4350-B1EC-2F4B55BC0AF7@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

...and the release30-maint branch is thawed.  Georg, could you please  
update the 3.0.1 docs on the website?  Thanks!

Barry

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From asmodai at in-nomine.org  Sun Feb 15 21:31:14 2009
From: asmodai at in-nomine.org (Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 21:31:14 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] PyPI issue?
Message-ID: <20090215203114.GI1075@nexus.in-nomine.org>

PyPI was working until I suddenly got:

Error...

There's been a problem with your request

: no connection to the server

Anyone with enough rights to check out what problem there might be?

-- 
Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven <asmodai(-at-)in-nomine.org> / asmodai
????? ?????? ??? ?? ??????
http://www.in-nomine.org/ | http://www.rangaku.org/ | GPG: 2EAC625B
Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust...

From brett at python.org  Wed Feb 25 23:31:21 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 14:31:21 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>

To see if people actually want to switch off of svn to a DVCS, I have put
together a survey for everyone to state for each DVCS if they think it is
better, worse, or equal to svn (and an option to not say anything if you
have no experience with the DVCS):

http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=cDVkUElEeEM5MGdBa29fcFZoU1Y2Vmc6MA..
The survey is not anonymous so that I can make sure no one games this; I can
check for duplicate usernames in the answers. But I will not give out any
information beyond aggregate data, so identifiable information stops at me.

I plan to keep this open for a week before I begin to seriously look at the
data.

-Brett
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From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 00:14:09 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:14:09 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-25 23:31, Brett Cannon wrote:
> To see if people actually want to switch off of svn to a DVCS, I have put
> together a survey for everyone to state for each DVCS if they think it is
> better, worse, or equal to svn (and an option to not say anything if you
> have no experience with the DVCS):
> 
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=cDVkUElEeEM5MGdBa29fcFZoU1Y2Vmc6MA..
> The survey is not anonymous so that I can make sure no one games this; I can
> check for duplicate usernames in the answers. But I will not give out any
> information beyond aggregate data, so identifiable information stops at me.
> 
> I plan to keep this open for a week before I begin to seriously look at the
> data.

There's an option missing in that survey:

[ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.

IMHO, Subversion works perfectly fine.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From mhammond at skippinet.com.au  Thu Feb 26 00:35:02 2009
From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:35:02 +1100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>

> There's an option missing in that survey:
> 
> [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.

To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare
against svn.

But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that I
believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that *doesn't*
necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python - I
might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
presented.

Mark


From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 00:38:20 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:38:20 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <49A5D66C.1090409@egenix.com>

Slightly corrected :-)

On 2009-02-26 00:14, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> There's an option missing in that survey:
> 
> [ ] I don't see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 00:40:50 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:40:50 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <49A5D702.8010303@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-26 00:35, Mark Hammond wrote:
>> There's an option missing in that survey:
>>
>> [ ] I don't see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.
> 
> To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare
> against svn.
> 
> But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that I
> believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that *doesn't*
> necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python - I
> might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
> presented.

Indeed, but doesn't the survey sort of imply that as a given ?

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From brett at python.org  Thu Feb 26 00:46:57 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 15:46:57 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 15:35, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au>wrote:

> > There's an option missing in that survey:
> >
> > [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.
>
> To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare
> against svn.
>
> But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that I
> believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that *doesn't*
> necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python - I
> might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
> presented.


I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to gauge
whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status quo for us,
which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make it a comparison
against the status quo and not svn specifically. If anyone wants to change
their vote based on this clarification let me know and I will delete your
initial answers.

So in MAL's case, you would say you think all the DVCS would be worse than
the status quo as a way to vote that you don't want any change because the
status quo is fine.

I am not going to delve any deeper into making a fancier survey because it
just gets too convoluted in terms of how to present the questions, mining
the data, dealing with bias and how people are just not built to rate
things, etc.

-Brett
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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 01:03:21 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 19:03:21 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 25, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Mark Hammond wrote:

>> There's an option missing in that survey:
>>
>> [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.
>
> To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they  
> compare
> against svn.
>
> But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered  
> that I
> believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that  
> *doesn't*
> necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for  
> Python - I
> might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
> presented.

Note that not switching from svn on the backend, but still allowing  
access with bzr, hg, and git is also an option.  And there are two  
subcategories of that: we provide mirrors of svn branches in the  
native format, and we do nothing, allowing the dvcs's use their svn- 
bridges to access the branches.  Although I think in either case we  
could provide hosting support for core committers.

Barry

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From jnoller at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 01:13:29 2009
From: jnoller at gmail.com (jnoller at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 00:13:29 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0016364ed0d0cc46ce0463c73896@google.com>

On Feb 25, 2009 6:46pm, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:


> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 15:35, Mark Hammond mhammond at skippinet.com.au>  
> wrote:

> > There's an option missing in that survey:

> >

> > [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.




> To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare

> against svn.



> But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that I

> believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that  
> *doesn't*

> necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python - I

> might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one

> presented.

> I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to  
> gauge whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status  
> quo for us, which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make  
> it a comparison against the status quo and not svn specifically. If  
> anyone wants to change their vote based on this clarification let me know  
> and I will delete your initial answers.



> So in MAL's case, you would say you think all the DVCS would be worse  
> than the status quo as a way to vote that you don't want any change  
> because the status quo is fine.



> I am not going to delve any deeper into making a fancier survey because  
> it just gets too convoluted in terms of how to present the questions,  
> mining the data, dealing with bias and how people are just not built to  
> rate things, etc.



> -Brett



Yeah, but the "Anything but subversion" option isn't there!

jesse
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From mhammond at skippinet.com.au  Thu Feb 26 01:14:30 2009
From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:14:30 +1100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
Message-ID: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>

I'm not sure if this list or python-dev is appropriate for the more general
dvcs discussions - apologies if I got it wrong.  There is one issue I'm yet
to see addressed - Windows line endings.

When the svn tree is checked out on windows, all text files have \r\n line
endings.  While many dev tools are capable of working with \n line endings,
this quickly becomes inconvenient - eg, my "patch" tool will always insert
\r\n line endings, simple commnd-line redirections and dumb editors also
will result in mixed or swapped line endings.  If we move to a VCS without
this support, it becomes trickier to compare, eg, an old svn tree with a new
tree on windows as every file differs.  While commit hooks etc can go some
way to preventing such files from being checked in, it would be much better
to avoid the problem in the first place by using native windows line
endings, as done by svn.

So I guess the first question is: how much importance do we want to put on
that capability?

To the best of my knowledge, bzr's support for this is a few months away.  I
keep hearing rumours mercurial does support it and I'm just starting work on
a mercurial based project, so I may be able to find some answers there -
does anyone else have experience with mercurial and windows line endings?
I've never used git but again, heard rumours there is some support.

Thoughts?

Mark




From mhammond at skippinet.com.au  Thu Feb 26 01:16:41 2009
From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:16:41 +1100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e801c997a7$821ef7d0$865ce770$@com.au>

[Brett writes]

> I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to gauge 
> whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status quo for us, 
> which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make it a comparison 
> against the status quo and not svn specifically. If anyone wants to change 
> their vote based on this clarification let me know and I will delete your 
> initial answers.

I'm afraid the above explanation still isn't quite clear to me: you are saying that we are actually voting on if we would 'approve' of an actual move of Python's SVN to that named DVCS?

If so, please do withdraw my vote; I need to think more about that...

Cheers,

Mark


From benjamin at python.org  Thu Feb 26 01:24:07 2009
From: benjamin at python.org (Benjamin Peterson)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:24:07 -0600
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
Message-ID: <1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au> wrote:
>
> To the best of my knowledge, bzr's support for this is a few months away. ?I
> keep hearing rumours mercurial does support it and I'm just starting work on
> a mercurial based project, so I may be able to find some answers there -
> does anyone else have experience with mercurial and windows line endings?
> I've never used git but again, heard rumours there is some support.

I can't add much more, but there's a section for this in the PEP:
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#crlf-lf-support



-- 
Regards,
Benjamin

From brett at python.org  Thu Feb 26 01:50:25 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:50:25 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <00e801c997a7$821ef7d0$865ce770$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
	<00e801c997a7$821ef7d0$865ce770$@com.au>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902251650n71af80aet60cc75ab95adfb16@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 16:16, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au>wrote:

> [Brett writes]
>
> > I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to
> gauge
> > whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status quo for
> us,
> > which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make it a
> comparison
> > against the status quo and not svn specifically. If anyone wants to
> change
> > their vote based on this clarification let me know and I will delete your
> > initial answers.
>
> I'm afraid the above explanation still isn't quite clear to me: you are
> saying that we are actually voting on if we would 'approve' of an actual
> move of Python's SVN to that named DVCS?
>

Basically, yes. If I said, "we are switching to XXX", would you be grumbling
about it because you thought svn was better, happy because you think it
would be an improvement or svn, or just shrug your shoulders at it.


>
> If so, please do withdraw my vote; I need to think more about that...


Deleted. But this is for me to make a more informed decision; there is
obviously not enough in this to lead to a switch being made purely on the
voting results. At best a DVCS will be taken out of the running because it
was consistently disliked.

-Brett
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From brett at python.org  Thu Feb 26 01:52:15 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 16:52:15 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <0016364ed0d0cc46ce0463c73896@google.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
	<0016364ed0d0cc46ce0463c73896@google.com>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902251652k254454beka8cec5753c2e1ca8@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 16:13, <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 25, 2009 6:46pm, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 15:35, Mark Hammond mhammond at skippinet.com.au>
> wrote:
> >
> > > There's an option missing in that survey:
> >
> > >
> >
> > > [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare
> >
> > against svn.
> >
> >
> >
> > But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that
> I
> >
> > believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that
> *doesn't*
> >
> > necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python -
> I
> >
> > might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
> >
> > presented.
> >
> > I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to
> gauge whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status quo
> for us, which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make it a
> comparison against the status quo and not svn specifically. If anyone wants
> to change their vote based on this clarification let me know and I will
> delete your initial answers.
> >
> >
> >
> > So in MAL's case, you would say you think all the DVCS would be worse
> than the status quo as a way to vote that you don't want any change because
> the status quo is fine.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am not going to delve any deeper into making a fancier survey because
> it just gets too convoluted in terms of how to present the questions, mining
> the data, dealing with bias and how people are just not built to rate
> things, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Brett
> >
> >
>
> Yeah, but the "Anything but subversion" option isn't there!


Yes it is; just vote that all three are better than the status quo.

-Brett
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From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 02:33:09 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 02:33:09 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>

Le mercredi 25 f?vrier 2009 ? 18:24 -0600, Benjamin Peterson a ?crit :
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > To the best of my knowledge, bzr's support for this is a few months away.  I
> > keep hearing rumours mercurial does support it and I'm just starting work on
> > a mercurial based project, so I may be able to find some answers there -
> > does anyone else have experience with mercurial and windows line endings?
> > I've never used git but again, heard rumours there is some support.
> 
> I can't add much more, but there's a section for this in the PEP:
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#crlf-lf-support

And it is even covered in the "minimal setup" section:
http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#hg



From mhammond at skippinet.com.au  Thu Feb 26 06:11:58 2009
From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:11:58 +1100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>	
	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>

> And it is even covered in the "minimal setup" section:
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#hg

I can't make the mercurial instructions work; I'm yet to investigate why though.

But my wider point was that there doesn't seem to be a required level of functionality, or even a blanket statement along the lines of "native eol support must offer as much functionality as svn".  eg, what would, and would not, be considered a "deal-breaker" in this area?  Anything?

Cheers,

Mark 



From brett at python.org  Thu Feb 26 07:43:48 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:43:48 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>
	<010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902252243n1cec16dem914818109d255c5d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 21:11, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au>wrote:

> > And it is even covered in the "minimal setup" section:
> > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#hg
>
> I can't make the mercurial instructions work; I'm yet to investigate why
> though.
>
> But my wider point was that there doesn't seem to be a required level of
> functionality, or even a blanket statement along the lines of "native eol
> support must offer as much functionality as svn".  eg, what would, and would
> not, be considered a "deal-breaker" in this area?  Anything?
>

If windows users get screwed that's a deal breaker. I have not looked at the
line endings section of the PEP yet, though, to know if they are at the
moment.

-Brett
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Feb 26 08:54:37 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:54:37 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
Message-ID: <49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>

> Note that not switching from svn on the backend, but still allowing
> access with bzr, hg, and git is also an option.  And there are two
> subcategories of that: we provide mirrors of svn branches in the native
> format, and we do nothing, allowing the dvcs's use their svn-bridges to
> access the branches.  Although I think in either case we could provide
> hosting support for core committers.

That's already the case, for bzr, right?

Regards,
Martin

From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 12:03:00 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:03:00 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A676E4.1070007@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-26 00:46, Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 15:35, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au>wrote:
> 
>>> There's an option missing in that survey:
>>>
>>> [ ] I see a need to switch to a DVCS at all.
>> To be fair, the survey isn't asking about a switch, just how they compare
>> against svn.
>>
>> But I must admin that seems a little strange; while I just answered that I
>> believe hg and bzr are better than svn (I abstained re git), that *doesn't*
>> necessarily imply I would vote that they should replace svn for Python - I
>> might, but I might not - that is a much harder question than the one
>> presented.
> 
> 
> I guess I didn't make it clear enough in the survey. This is meant to gauge
> whether you think the DVCSs would be improvement over the status quo for us,
> which happens to be svn. I have changed the options to make it a comparison
> against the status quo and not svn specifically. If anyone wants to change
> their vote based on this clarification let me know and I will delete your
> initial answers.
> 
> So in MAL's case, you would say you think all the DVCS would be worse than
> the status quo as a way to vote that you don't want any change because the
> status quo is fine.

Note that I have abstained from voting on any of the DVCSes - simply
because I have no experience with them to make an educated decision, ie.
I can't say bzr is better or worse than svn.

That said, I don't have any major issues with the existing Subversion
setup and believe that adding bridges to DVCS systems is the more appropriate
approach to a project of this size than to switch the version control
system over completely.

Subversion was certainly a technical improvement over CVS which had
serious problems with branches, tagging and locks. The move to a DVCS
doesn't look as attractive as Subversion did at the time.

Looking at the PEP 374, the DVCSes don't appear to make life easier for
common repo tasks (they each require more or less the same number of
commands), so the argument for using a DVCS is more about giving non-core
developers access to a version control system they can use to track their
patches. However, this appears to be already solved using the bzr mirror.

> I am not going to delve any deeper into making a fancier survey because it
> just gets too convoluted in terms of how to present the questions, mining
> the data, dealing with bias and how people are just not built to rate
> things, etc.

At least to me, the survey looks biased already - namely that it puts
the second question before the first: "do we have a need to change
the system ?".

Perhaps you should do a survey on this question first ?!

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 12:18:48 2009
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:18:48 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902252243n1cec16dem914818109d255c5d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>	<1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>	<010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>
	<bbaeab100902252243n1cec16dem914818109d255c5d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A67A98.5050601@gmail.com>

Brett Cannon wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 21:11, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au
> <mailto:mhammond at skippinet.com.au>> wrote:
>     But my wider point was that there doesn't seem to be a required
>     level of functionality, or even a blanket statement along the lines
>     of "native eol support must offer as much functionality as svn".
>      eg, what would, and would not, be considered a "deal-breaker" in
>     this area?  Anything?
> 
> 
> If windows users get screwed that's a deal breaker. I have not looked at
> the line endings section of the PEP yet, though, to know if they are at
> the moment.

That sounds like a "not worse than SVN" to me (which means allowing it
to be set on a per-file basis, but also being able to set it up so that
checked in text files were marked that way by default).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 14:06:11 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 14:06:11 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol> <010401c997d0$c4d22d30$4e768790$@com.au>
Message-ID: <1235653571.7109.2.camel@fsol>

Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 16:11 +1100, Mark Hammond a ?crit :
> > And it is even covered in the "minimal setup" section:
> > http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#hg
> 
> I can't make the mercurial instructions work; I'm yet to investigate why though.

There's some doc here:
http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/Win32TextExtension
If you want to be sure the extension has been enabled, you can try "hg
showconfig".

If you still have problems with it, you could post on the mercurial ML:
http://selenic.com/mailman/listinfo/mercurial
or through the gmane bridge:
http://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.mercurial.general/



From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 14:25:50 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:25:50 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 26, 2009, at 2:54 AM, Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>> Note that not switching from svn on the backend, but still allowing
>> access with bzr, hg, and git is also an option.  And there are two
>> subcategories of that: we provide mirrors of svn branches in the  
>> native
>> format, and we do nothing, allowing the dvcs's use their svn- 
>> bridges to
>> access the branches.  Although I think in either case we could  
>> provide
>> hosting support for core committers.
>
> That's already the case, for bzr, right?

Correct, in that there are native bzr branches on code.python.org,  
which I am currently trying to improve.

If we go this route though, then I think we should evaluate providing  
the same level of support for other DVCSs people want.  I'm not  
volunteering to maintain the hg or git repos, but if volunteers came  
forward, we should reorganize the url space and authentication stuff  
so that they can easily be pulled from c.p.o.

Alternatively, we continue to provide the svn masters and let other  
hosting facilities mirror the native branches (con: there will be a  
delay) or let people use their <dvcs>-svn bridges, e.g. bzr-svn.

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 14:27:38 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 08:27:38 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A676E4.1070007@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<bbaeab100902251546r66022b2el1f8df0580f8115b@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A676E4.1070007@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <EC4406B8-443F-495A-86B4-B36F4760B385@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 26, 2009, at 6:03 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

> Looking at the PEP 374, the DVCSes don't appear to make life easier  
> for
> common repo tasks (they each require more or less the same number of
> commands), so the argument for using a DVCS is more about giving non- 
> core
> developers access to a version control system they can use to track  
> their
> patches. However, this appears to be already solved using the bzr  
> mirror.

For core devs, I do think things like revision blocking and cherry  
picking would be easier with the branches in a native DVCS.

Barry

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From jim at zope.com  Thu Feb 26 15:11:11 2009
From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:11:11 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
Message-ID: <7F13A05E-92CD-4DC1-9ED8-A15DF409D9B9@zope.com>


On Feb 25, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Mark Hammond wrote:
> So I guess the first question is: how much importance do we want to  
> put on
> that capability?


IMO, this is very important.

Jim

--
Jim Fulton
Zope Corporation



From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 15:27:09 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:27:09 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
Message-ID: <49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-26 14:25, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> [providing DVCS facilities instead of switching over the main system]
> Alternatively, we continue to provide the svn masters and let other
> hosting facilities mirror the native branches (con: there will be a
> delay) or let people use their <dvcs>-svn bridges, e.g. bzr-svn.

I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
load on the python.org repo sys-admins.

It would also permit fans of all discussed DVCS systems to use
their favorite tool, provided there are volunteers to do the
hosting.

On 2009-02-26 14:27, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Feb 26, 2009, at 6:03 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>
>> Looking at the PEP 374, the DVCSes don't appear to make life easier for
>> common repo tasks (they each require more or less the same number of
>> commands), so the argument for using a DVCS is more about giving non-core
>> developers access to a version control system they can use to track their
>> patches. However, this appears to be already solved using the bzr mirror.
>
> For core devs, I do think things like revision blocking and cherry
> picking would be easier with the branches in a native DVCS.

AFAIK, svnmerge provides these two functions for Subversion.

Another aspect to consider is that Subversion uses copy-on-write,
so that creating a branch with only a few changes doesn't take
up much space in the repo.

It would certainly be possible to setup a repo structure having
many core-dev private branches, e.g.

/branches/<coredevname>/issue0001
/branches/<coredevname>/issue0002
/branches/<coredevname>/issue0003

BTW: You can avoid the extra checkout of the branch in Subversion
by first locally copying the trunk checkout to a new dir (using e.g.
cp -al) and then running a "svn switch" on it. To clean out any
local modification, you can then additionally run "svn revert -R ."

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 15:50:04 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:50:04 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>


Hi,

I'm no trying to advocate switching to a DVCS, but really:

> I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
> load on the python.org repo sys-admins.

How does having 4 more-or-less supported VCSes, rather than 1, lighten
the load on the sysadmins? Even though the DVCSes are theoretically
handled by separate people, they have needs which must be fulfilled by
the sysadmins (e.g. for Mercurial, mod_wsgi had to be installed for the
Web front-end; and we see how much cooperation Bazaar support seems to
require from the sysadmins).

> Another aspect to consider is that Subversion uses copy-on-write,
> so that creating a branch with only a few changes doesn't take
> up much space in the repo.

Other systems like Mercurial (and I'd be surprised if the others didn't
have that option as well) also use copy-on-write when creating clones of
a repository. You shouldn't assume that SVN has optimizations that the
others don't have. SVN is actually quite crappy performance-wise (at
least compared to Mercurial, which I'm used to).

> BTW: You can avoid the extra checkout of the branch in Subversion
> by first locally copying the trunk checkout to a new dir (using e.g.
> cp -al) and then running a "svn switch" on it.

That means you only work on one feature at a time, though (since you
can't locally commit your changes). Besides, every time you switch the
source URL you have to "make distclean", which makes builds quite a bit
longer.



From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Feb 26 15:54:19 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 15:54:19 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902260654o42d0def1xe03da3a4232b06e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:

> I'm no trying to advocate switching to a DVCS, but really:
>
>> I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
>> load on the python.org repo sys-admins.
>
> How does having 4 more-or-less supported VCSes, rather than 1, lighten
> the load on the sysadmins

"that" was referring to "other hosting facilities", not other
repositories on the python.org servers:

  > Alternatively, we continue to provide the svn masters and let other
  > hosting facilities mirror the native branches (con: there will be a
  > delay) or let people use their <dvcs>-svn bridges, e.g. bzr-svn.

  I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
  load on the python.org repo sys-admins.

</F>

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Feb 26 16:01:43 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:01:43 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902260701o26319297n327a5eb6370b9522@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:

>> BTW: You can avoid the extra checkout of the branch in Subversion
>> by first locally copying the trunk checkout to a new dir (using e.g.
>> cp -al) and then running a "svn switch" on it.
>
> That means you only work on one feature at a time, though (since you
> can't locally commit your changes). Besides, every time you switch the
> source URL you have to "make distclean", which makes builds quite a bit
> longer.

you can work on (at least) one feature for each distinct workspace you
have on your machine.  the "cp / switch" combo is just a quick way to
create a new workspace and associate it with a given branch/url,
without having to pull the whole thing from the server.

switching on active workspaces isn't a good idea (unless you're mostly
generating trivial patches in a drive-by fashion, perhaps, but even in
this case, you probably want something like quilt [1] to preserve your
sanity).

</F>

1) http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/quilt

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 16:04:35 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:04:35 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902260654o42d0def1xe03da3a4232b06e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<368a5cd50902260654o42d0def1xe03da3a4232b06e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1235660675.7109.37.camel@fsol>

Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 15:54 +0100, Fredrik Lundh a ?crit :
> "that" was referring to "other hosting facilities", not other
> repositories on the python.org servers:

Ok. Sounds like a regression, but anyway.



From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 16:10:56 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:10:56 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-26 15:50, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm no trying to advocate switching to a DVCS, but really:
> 
>> I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
>> load on the python.org repo sys-admins.
> 
> How does having 4 more-or-less supported VCSes, rather than 1, lighten
> the load on the sysadmins? Even though the DVCSes are theoretically
> handled by separate people, they have needs which must be fulfilled by
> the sysadmins (e.g. for Mercurial, mod_wsgi had to be installed for the
> Web front-end; and we see how much cooperation Bazaar support seems to
> require from the sysadmins).

I didn't know that and was under the impression that those other
systems simply hook up to the svn repo via the standard Subversion
interfaces.

>> Another aspect to consider is that Subversion uses copy-on-write,
>> so that creating a branch with only a few changes doesn't take
>> up much space in the repo.
> 
> Other systems like Mercurial (and I'd be surprised if the others didn't
> have that option as well) also use copy-on-write when creating clones of
> a repository. You shouldn't assume that SVN has optimizations that the
> others don't have. SVN is actually quite crappy performance-wise (at
> least compared to Mercurial, which I'm used to).

I wasn't trying to imply that the other system don't support this.

However, it is often said that branches in DVCS system are so much
better to work with. Subversion supports these as well, it's just
that we currently don't make much use of them and that's what I
wanted to point out.

>> BTW: You can avoid the extra checkout of the branch in Subversion
>> by first locally copying the trunk checkout to a new dir (using e.g.
>> cp -al) and then running a "svn switch" on it.
> 
> That means you only work on one feature at a time, though (since you
> can't locally commit your changes).

I don't understand that comment. Of course, you can commit whatever
changes you make to the branch. It's not done locally and then forwarded,
but that's not really a technical disadvantage, it's merely a different
way to work.

By contrast, the reasons for switching from CVS to Subversion were
mostly technical ones - we often had problems with locks and tagging
was very slow.

> Besides, every time you switch the
> source URL you have to "make distclean", which makes builds quite a bit
> longer.

Why is that ? You need to do that for patches that change the build
system or configuration, but for patches to a single C file, that's
normally not needed.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Feb 26 16:15:07 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:15:07 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902260715t1c639080oa24271cd9d22a154@mail.gmail.com>

Better, worse, or equal in what sense?  Obviously, *all* of them are
better in certain senses (patch-oriented instead of revision-oriented
approach, higher (?) development velocity, and not to mention the
oh-shiny factor).  However, it's highly questionable if any of them is
better if we take also *users* of the Python source code tree into
account.  SVN is ubiquitous in industry on all platforms.  The others,
not so much.  And the set of people capable of installing any of the
others but not SVN is probably non-existent.

</F>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:31 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
> To see if people actually want to switch off of svn to a DVCS, I have put
> together a survey for everyone to state for each DVCS if they think it is
> better, worse, or equal to svn (and an option to not say anything if you
> have no experience with the DVCS):
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=cDVkUElEeEM5MGdBa29fcFZoU1Y2Vmc6MA..
> The survey is not anonymous so that I can make sure no one games this; I can
> check for duplicate usernames in the answers. But I will not give out any
> information beyond aggregate data, so identifiable information stops at me.
> I plan to keep this open for a week before I begin to seriously look at the
> data.
> -Brett
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>
>

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Thu Feb 26 16:17:30 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:17:30 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902260715t1c639080oa24271cd9d22a154@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902260715t1c639080oa24271cd9d22a154@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902260717i7fcbfef7oce9711e0dcf2ee09@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 4:15 PM, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:
> Better, worse, or equal in what sense?  Obviously, *all* of them are
> better in certain senses (patch-oriented instead of revision-oriented
> approach, higher (?) development velocity

to clarify: I meant tool development - especially GIT is moving faster
than anything else, from what I can tell.  (just wish they got their
Windows support sorted out.  any minute now...)

</F>

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 16:36:41 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 16:36:41 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>

Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 16:10 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg a ?crit :
> 
> I didn't know that and was under the impression that those other
> systems simply hook up to the svn repo via the standard Subversion
> interfaces.

They hook up to the svn repo for mirroring purposes, true. But they also
have their own wire protocol, and some of them also have Web-based
browsing facilities (which, in the case of Mercurial, are actually two
sides of the same coin: the same base URL is used for human-readable
browsing and for read-only HTTP-based cloning of the repository (the
writeable cloning variant, as with SVN, uses an SSH-based protocol
instead)).

> However, it is often said that branches in DVCS system are so much
> better to work with. Subversion supports these as well, it's just
> that we currently don't make much use of them and that's what I
> wanted to point out.

Perhaps because they are not really practical? For example, I don't know
how often you use svnmerge, but it's surprisingly slow even for small
merges. It also seems to transfer lots of information over the network.

> I don't understand that comment. Of course, you can commit whatever
> changes you make to the branch.

Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your comment.

> By contrast, the reasons for switching from CVS to Subversion were
> mostly technical ones - we often had problems with locks and tagging
> was very slow.

There are also technical reasons to prefer a DVCS: fast logging, fast
annotation, fast (and supposedly smarter, although I'm not really
knowledgeable on this) merges, and in some cases a nifty Web front-end.

> Why is that ? You need to do that for patches that change the build
> system or configuration, but for patches to a single C file, that's
> normally not needed.

Ok, but the point is that if many files have changed (or a single file
in the Include directory :-)), the rebuild process is longish each time
you "svn switch". Not so if you use a separate directory for each line
of work.



From richard.m.tew at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 16:50:54 2009
From: richard.m.tew at gmail.com (Richard Tew)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:50:54 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:
>> However, it is often said that branches in DVCS system are so much
>> better to work with. Subversion supports these as well, it's just
>> that we currently don't make much use of them and that's what I
>> wanted to point out.
>
> Perhaps because they are not really practical? For example, I don't know
> how often you use svnmerge, but it's surprisingly slow even for small
> merges. It also seems to transfer lots of information over the network.

On the note of SVN bandwidth usage during merges, the merge of the
changes between the Python 3.0 and 3.0.1 tagged revisions into the
corresponding Stackless Python branch, used up almost exactly two
gigabytes according to Tortoise SVN.  This was a trial merge and then
the real merge, at a gigabyte a piece.

Regarding this DVCS survey in general, Stackless Python is hosted in
the svn.python.org repository.  As we are a distinct project from
Python itself, I don't really have a stake in a choice which affects
Python and haven't filled the survey in.  If the SVN hosting went away
and the chosen DVCS solution did not have a good Windows UI (like
TortoiseSVN), then I would have to make sad faces.

Cheers,
Richard.

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 17:00:26 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:00:26 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com> <00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1235664026.7109.51.camel@fsol>

Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 10:50 -0500, Richard Tew a ?crit :
> If the SVN hosting went away
> and the chosen DVCS solution did not have a good Windows UI (like
> TortoiseSVN), then I would have to make sad faces.

Perhaps you can try TortoiseHG
(http://bitbucket.org/tortoisehg/stable/wiki/Home) with one of the
mirrors on http://code.python.org/hg and tell us your observations?
This would certainly enlighten other Windows developers here.

(the mirrors are read-only, but you can still do local changes and
commits of course, just not push the changes to the mirrors)

Cheers

Antoine.



From mal at egenix.com  Thu Feb 26 17:10:32 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:10:32 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-26 16:36, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 16:10 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg a ?crit :
>> I didn't know that and was under the impression that those other
>> systems simply hook up to the svn repo via the standard Subversion
>> interfaces.
> 
> They hook up to the svn repo for mirroring purposes, true. But they also
> have their own wire protocol, and some of them also have Web-based
> browsing facilities (which, in the case of Mercurial, are actually two
> sides of the same coin: the same base URL is used for human-readable
> browsing and for read-only HTTP-based cloning of the repository (the
> writeable cloning variant, as with SVN, uses an SSH-based protocol
> instead)).

So just to get this right: The Subversion admins on python.org do
not have to setup anything special for DVCS mirror sites to hook
up to the main Subversion repo.

>> However, it is often said that branches in DVCS system are so much
>> better to work with. Subversion supports these as well, it's just
>> that we currently don't make much use of them and that's what I
>> wanted to point out.
> 
> Perhaps because they are not really practical? For example, I don't know
> how often you use svnmerge, but it's surprisingly slow even for small
> merges. It also seems to transfer lots of information over the network.

This is probably a matter of Internet connection bandwidth then.
I have no idea how much data gets transferred, but it doesn't
"feel" slow.

>> I don't understand that comment. Of course, you can commit whatever
>> changes you make to the branch.
> 
> Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your comment.
> 
>> By contrast, the reasons for switching from CVS to Subversion were
>> mostly technical ones - we often had problems with locks and tagging
>> was very slow.
> 
> There are also technical reasons to prefer a DVCS: fast logging, fast
> annotation, fast (and supposedly smarter, although I'm not really
> knowledgeable on this) merges, and in some cases a nifty Web front-end.

IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.

(*) This provides fast reads. Writes will still have to to the
main repo site. See
http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.5_releasenotes.html#webdav-proxy

>> Why is that ? You need to do that for patches that change the build
>> system or configuration, but for patches to a single C file, that's
>> normally not needed.
> 
> Ok, but the point is that if many files have changed (or a single file
> in the Include directory :-)), the rebuild process is longish each time
> you "svn switch". Not so if you use a separate directory for each line
> of work.

Right, which is what I was describing... you copy your local trunk
copy and then switch that copy to the new branch. If you use cp -al
for this, that's a very fast operation on Unixes and avoids
most of the network traffic.

Then you work in the new local branch dir.
Finally, you merge back the changes to trunk and delete the
local branch dir (and probably also the one in the repo).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 26 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Feb 26 17:41:34 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:41:34 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>
Message-ID: <49A6C63E.3020301@v.loewis.de>

> Thoughts?

Procedurally, I think there are many open issues. I'm not sure
whether they get collected somewhere - so far, I took the position
that I'll wait for a final proposal of a specific technology, with
a specific demo setup, and then look what is wrong with this setup.

Among the issues that have not been adequately addressed so far are:
- conversion of the complete history
- performance of the tools
- availability of Windows support equivalent to TortoiseSVN
- pre-commit checks
- post-commit actions (such as commit emails, buildbot triggers)

I think this specific issue (text mode and line endings) definitely
belongs into the list of issues that need to be resolved, and I
think it should be show-stopper if it isn't adequately resolved
(i.e. it needs to be at least as good as CVS and subversion).

Regards,
Martin


From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 17:48:04 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:48:04 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <E6F133C9-79DE-442E-9BEA-AB4A3CF69680@python.org>

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On Feb 26, 2009, at 9:27 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

> It would also permit fans of all discussed DVCS systems to use
> their favorite tool, provided there are volunteers to do the
> hosting.

There are.  I think this approach will also allow Brett to save on the  
astronomical cost of asbestos underwear.

>> For core devs, I do think things like revision blocking and cherry
>> picking would be easier with the branches in a native DVCS.
>
> AFAIK, svnmerge provides these two functions for Subversion.

Right.  It seems like more of a hack than a basic feature to me.   
Still, it might be good enough.

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 17:50:37 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:50:37 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235660675.7109.37.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<368a5cd50902260654o42d0def1xe03da3a4232b06e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235660675.7109.37.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <C6AF9717-DA38-4BC5-8C94-5B64CA491459@python.org>

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On Feb 26, 2009, at 10:04 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

> Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 15:54 +0100, Fredrik Lundh a ?crit :
>> "that" was referring to "other hosting facilities", not other
>> repositories on the python.org servers:
>
> Ok. Sounds like a regression, but anyway.

It's not a regression for the status quo.  Ideally, we as an  
organization could handle the administrative overhead of self-hosting  
the DVCS branches.  But if not, there are certainly hosting facilities  
that can handle high fidelity imports of the svn masters.

Barry

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From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Feb 26 17:54:22 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 17:54:22 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] DVCS and windows line endings.
In-Reply-To: <1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>
References: <00e301c997a7$32fbdfb0$98f39f10$@com.au>	<1afaf6160902251624k3a324228g572b327561845fd8@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235611989.8322.3.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <49A6C93E.9060708@v.loewis.de>

> And it is even covered in the "minimal setup" section:
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/#hg

I think this setup is incomplete: you should also add encode/decode
sections to list all file name patterns that should see line
conversion. Not sure when to use cleverencode and when to use
dumbencode, though.

Regards,
Martin

From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 17:55:02 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:55:02 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol> <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <987F03AA-8291-41EA-9EC6-31B561D6D194@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Feb 26, 2009, at 10:10 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

> On 2009-02-26 15:50, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm no trying to advocate switching to a DVCS, but really:
>>
>>> I think that's a much better approach and one that reduces the
>>> load on the python.org repo sys-admins.
>>
>> How does having 4 more-or-less supported VCSes, rather than 1,  
>> lighten
>> the load on the sysadmins? Even though the DVCSes are theoretically
>> handled by separate people, they have needs which must be fulfilled  
>> by
>> the sysadmins (e.g. for Mercurial, mod_wsgi had to be installed for  
>> the
>> Web front-end; and we see how much cooperation Bazaar support seems  
>> to
>> require from the sysadmins).
>
> I didn't know that and was under the impression that those other
> systems simply hook up to the svn repo via the standard Subversion
> interfaces.

Well, for Bazaar, there's a plugin that speaks svn.  I really don't  
think there's much ongoing maintenance other than setting up a cronjob  
to sync the mirror to the svn master every minute or so.  From then  
on, it should just work.  Most of the churn in the bzr branches hosted  
on code.python.org is because it was an experiment we hacked together  
at Pycon, so I'm mostly trying to consolidate, update and bring parts  
of that in house.

> I don't understand that comment. Of course, you can commit whatever
> changes you make to the branch. It's not done locally and then  
> forwarded,
> but that's not really a technical disadvantage, it's merely a  
> different
> way to work.

It is when you're on an 18 hour train ride and not on the net.

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 17:59:28 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 11:59:28 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235664026.7109.51.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235664026.7109.51.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <87A3D170-B7B9-4284-ACBA-4AE9DB9B06EB@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:00 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:

> Perhaps you can try TortoiseHG
> (http://bitbucket.org/tortoisehg/stable/wiki/Home) with one of the
> mirrors on http://code.python.org/hg and tell us your observations?
> This would certainly enlighten other Windows developers here.
>
> (the mirrors are read-only, but you can still do local changes and
> commits of course, just not push the changes to the mirrors)

I feel compelled to point out that there's a TortoiseBZR as well.

http://bazaar-vcs.org/Download

You can also push Bazaar branches to Launchpad as lots of people are  
already doing:

https://code.launchpad.net/python

Barry

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From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 18:02:38 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:02:38 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol> <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <D14D698B-CFD6-4ED7-AA47-33F467221DDE@python.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Feb 26, 2009, at 11:10 AM, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:

> So just to get this right: The Subversion admins on python.org do
> not have to setup anything special for DVCS mirror sites to hook
> up to the main Subversion repo.

True.  If we wanted to host the DVCS branches on python.org, we'd have  
to set up the update scripts, either cron or something else.  We'd  
probably also want to set up the ViewDVCS web server.

> IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
> installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
> except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
> in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.
>
> (*) This provides fast reads. Writes will still have to to the
> main repo site. See
> http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.5_releasenotes.html#webdav-proxy

Writes are the biggest problem to me.  I want full access to all my  
VCS features, even when I'm disconnected from the net.

Barry

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From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Feb 26 18:10:37 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:10:37 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
Message-ID: <49A6CD0D.2070505@v.loewis.de>

>> That's already the case, for bzr, right?
> 
> Correct, in that there are native bzr branches on code.python.org, which
> I am currently trying to improve.

Furthermore, there is the option of hosting bzr branches on
code.python.org, for committers, right? (not sure whether any committer
makes active use of this service, though)

> If we go this route though, then I think we should evaluate providing
> the same level of support for other DVCSs people want.  I'm not
> volunteering to maintain the hg or git repos, but if volunteers came
> forward, we should reorganize the url space and authentication stuff so
> that they can easily be pulled from c.p.o.

Indeed. Before, I was worried about disk space. Now that we got a new
machine, with plenty disk, RAM, CPU, we can offer hosting whatever
people want to see - as you say, we would need a volunteer maintainer
of such a service, though.

Regards,
Martin


From barry at python.org  Thu Feb 26 18:17:09 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 12:17:09 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6CD0D.2070505@v.loewis.de>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6CD0D.2070505@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <57A5F665-F779-412E-873A-72542281F69D@python.org>

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On Feb 26, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>>> That's already the case, for bzr, right?
>>
>> Correct, in that there are native bzr branches on code.python.org,  
>> which
>> I am currently trying to improve.
>
> Furthermore, there is the option of hosting bzr branches on
> code.python.org, for committers, right? (not sure whether any  
> committer
> makes active use of this service, though)

Right.  I have a few branches up there.

Barry

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From solipsis at pitrou.net  Thu Feb 26 18:21:18 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:21:18 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <1235668878.7109.82.camel@fsol>

Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 17:10 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg a ?crit :
> This is probably a matter of Internet connection bandwidth then.

Not really.
To give a point of comparison, when I clone (using Mercurial) the Python
trunk at http://code.python.org/hg/trunk, it takes 2 minutes 50 seconds.
That's for the whole trunk history from 1990 to today, and bandwidth is
around 500 KB/s (sustained) during the downloading.

So, having svnmerge take one minute or more from a machine hosted at the
same place as code.python.org points to a really slow merge
implementation IMO.

> I have no idea how much data gets transferred, but it doesn't
> "feel" slow.

It definitely feels slow when you merge from e.g. trunk to py3k.

> IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
> installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
> except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
> in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.

I've never used svnsync, but I have already tried svk and it was a PITA
(that's what led me to try Mercurial, and then write hgsvn).




From martin at v.loewis.de  Thu Feb 26 18:28:18 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 18:28:18 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A6D132.5060309@v.loewis.de>

> Regarding this DVCS survey in general, Stackless Python is hosted in
> the svn.python.org repository.  As we are a distinct project from
> Python itself, I don't really have a stake in a choice which affects
> Python and haven't filled the survey in.  If the SVN hosting went away
> and the chosen DVCS solution did not have a good Windows UI (like
> TortoiseSVN), then I would have to make sad faces.

Be assured that this won't happen. Perhaps the /python folder
would get removed from projects repository; svn.python.org would
continue to work (it is also needed to host the website and the
PyPI sources). It doesn't cost anything to continue to run svn.
(perhaps if all the other projects except for stackless left svn,
I would ask you to "volunteer" some admin time into its operation).

Regards,
Martin

From steven.bethard at gmail.com  Thu Feb 26 19:12:15 2009
From: steven.bethard at gmail.com (Steven Bethard)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 10:12:15 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235664026.7109.51.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<952d92df0902260750s78a5d942m19e8bcc251438a20@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235664026.7109.51.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <d11dcfba0902261012x6a526fd2kdaed00e0dc78be13@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:
> Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 10:50 -0500, Richard Tew a ?crit :
>> If the SVN hosting went away
>> and the chosen DVCS solution did not have a good Windows UI (like
>> TortoiseSVN), then I would have to make sad faces.
>
> Perhaps you can try TortoiseHG
> (http://bitbucket.org/tortoisehg/stable/wiki/Home) with one of the
> mirrors on http://code.python.org/hg and tell us your observations?
> This would certainly enlighten other Windows developers here.

I've been using TortoiseHG with another repository for a while, and
the functionality is basically as good as TortoiseSVN except that
about 10% of the time it hangs on push and I have to kill it and
restart the machine.

Steve
-- 
I'm not *in*-sane. Indeed, I am so far *out* of sane that you appear a
tiny blip on the distant coast of sanity.
        --- Bucky Katt, Get Fuzzy

From brett at python.org  Fri Feb 27 04:21:09 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 19:21:09 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 08:10, M.-A. Lemburg <mal at egenix.com> wrote:

> On 2009-02-26 16:36, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> > Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 16:10 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg a ?crit :
> >> I didn't know that and was under the impression that those other
> >> systems simply hook up to the svn repo via the standard Subversion
> >> interfaces.
> >
> > They hook up to the svn repo for mirroring purposes, true. But they also
> > have their own wire protocol, and some of them also have Web-based
> > browsing facilities (which, in the case of Mercurial, are actually two
> > sides of the same coin: the same base URL is used for human-readable
> > browsing and for read-only HTTP-based cloning of the repository (the
> > writeable cloning variant, as with SVN, uses an SSH-based protocol
> > instead)).
>
> So just to get this right: The Subversion admins on python.org do
> not have to setup anything special for DVCS mirror sites to hook
> up to the main Subversion repo.
>
> >> However, it is often said that branches in DVCS system are so much
> >> better to work with. Subversion supports these as well, it's just
> >> that we currently don't make much use of them and that's what I
> >> wanted to point out.
> >
> > Perhaps because they are not really practical? For example, I don't know
> > how often you use svnmerge, but it's surprisingly slow even for small
> > merges. It also seems to transfer lots of information over the network.
>
> This is probably a matter of Internet connection bandwidth then.
> I have no idea how much data gets transferred, but it doesn't
> "feel" slow.
>

Feels slow to me, especially when you have to do it three separate times
that all feel slow.


>
> >> I don't understand that comment. Of course, you can commit whatever
> >> changes you make to the branch.
> >
> > Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your comment.
> >
> >> By contrast, the reasons for switching from CVS to Subversion were
> >> mostly technical ones - we often had problems with locks and tagging
> >> was very slow.
> >
> > There are also technical reasons to prefer a DVCS: fast logging, fast
> > annotation, fast (and supposedly smarter, although I'm not really
> > knowledgeable on this) merges, and in some cases a nifty Web front-end.
>
> IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
> installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
> except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
> in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.
>
> (*) This provides fast reads. Writes will still have to to the
> main repo site. See
> http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.5_releasenotes.html#webdav-proxy
>

Performance is a perk, not a reason to switch, true.


>
> >> Why is that ? You need to do that for patches that change the build
> >> system or configuration, but for patches to a single C file, that's
> >> normally not needed.
> >
> > Ok, but the point is that if many files have changed (or a single file
> > in the Include directory :-)), the rebuild process is longish each time
> > you "svn switch". Not so if you use a separate directory for each line
> > of work.
>
> Right, which is what I was describing... you copy your local trunk
> copy and then switch that copy to the new branch. If you use cp -al
> for this, that's a very fast operation on Unixes and avoids
> most of the network traffic.
>

What cp are you talking about, the command or svn cp? Either way the help
for both commands don't list -a or -l as flags on OS X under their help.


>
> Then you work in the new local branch dir.
> Finally, you merge back the changes to trunk and delete the
> local branch dir (and probably also the one in the repo).
>

But what about the non-core developer? While all of us can do svn copy to
make any branch we want and all that, the poor guy who doesn't have commit
privs can't do that.

As an example, let's say Antoine was getting help from someone for his io
rewrite that was not a core developer. That guy would have to either have to
live without being able to do local commits to checkpoint his work and hope
he never reached a situation where he needed to revert some of his work,
generate patch files to simulate checkins, or have to learn how to convert
the io C branch for a DVCS and work from that.

Or we can use a DVCS to make sure non-core developers don't have to feel
like second-class citizens and jump through extra hoops in order to do
something as basic as commits of their work.

The DVCS switch is not about us (at least not entirely). It's about the
people who want to help out but have not earned checking rights. It's about
giving them the best tools available to empower them to contribute to Python
in the easiest, best way possible.

-Brett
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Fri Feb 27 11:59:33 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:59:33 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:

>> Right, which is what I was describing... you copy your local trunk
>> copy and then switch that copy to the new branch. If you use cp -al
>> for this, that's a very fast operation on Unixes and avoids
>> most of the network traffic.
>
> What cp are you talking about, the command or svn cp? Either way the help
> for both commands don't list -a or -l as flags on OS X under their help.

$ cp --help
...
Copy SOURCE to DEST, or multiple SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY.
...
Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too.
  -a, --archive                same as -dpR
...
  -l, --link                   link files instead of copying

Sounds like you need to upgrade to a real OS ;-)

> The DVCS switch is not about us (at least not entirely). It's about the
> people who want to help out but have not earned checking rights. It's about
> giving them the best tools available to empower them to contribute to Python
> in the easiest, best way possible.

So the hypothetical requirements of one hypothetical developer is
reason enough for breaking the current process for *everyone*,
including core developers and non-development repository users (see my
earlier mail)?  Given that all major DVCS:es seem to have solid
support for *pulling* from an SVN master repository (and at least Git
makes it easy to commit too), why not just let developers to use
whatever tools they want when working on individual features, as long
as they can provide a straightforward patch (or commit) at the end?

</F>

From aleaxit at gmail.com  Fri Feb 27 16:32:01 2009
From: aleaxit at gmail.com (Alex Martelli)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 07:32:01 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e8a0972d0902270732k6dfd28cex2b2d58302fd128e6@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 2:59 AM, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com>wrote:
   ...

> $ cp --help
> ...
> Copy SOURCE to DEST, or multiple SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY.
> ...
> Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too.
>  -a, --archive                same as -dpR
> ...
>  -l, --link                   link files instead of copying
>
> Sounds like you need to upgrade to a real OS ;-)


if you want the feature-laden gnu-style version of basic utilities, instead
of the simpler unix-style one that MacOSX (and most all BSDs, OpenSolaris,
etc) come with, it's typically simple to download and install the gnu-style
one; on MacOSX, the simplest way is probably via
http://coreutils.darwinports.com/ .


Alex
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From g.brandl at gmx.net  Fri Feb 27 20:56:37 2009
From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:56:37 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <go9gid$1ha$1@ger.gmane.org>

M.-A. Lemburg schrieb:

> IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
> installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
> except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
> in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.
> 
> (*) This provides fast reads. Writes will still have to to the
> main repo site. See
> http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.5_releasenotes.html#webdav-proxy

So for merging we use svnmerge, for having a local repo we use svnsync.
If we continue that way, perhaps there is a svnlocalcommit for on-the-fly
committing, and so on.

But once you have to install, learn and maintain Subversion plus a handful
of tools, just to get the same level of convenience you get for free with
a DVCS, you can't tell me the former is easier than the latter.

Georg

-- 
Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less.
Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy
indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou
two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.


From brett at python.org  Fri Feb 27 21:23:56 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:23:56 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>
	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>

I had a long reply all written out, but instead I decided to discard it so
as to not continue to drag this discussion out. Why? The DVCS PEP is not
even finished yet!

Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about
whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a
decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to switch
to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update the PEP to
address any questions that come up.

-Brett


On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:59, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 4:21 AM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>
> >> Right, which is what I was describing... you copy your local trunk
> >> copy and then switch that copy to the new branch. If you use cp -al
> >> for this, that's a very fast operation on Unixes and avoids
> >> most of the network traffic.
> >
> > What cp are you talking about, the command or svn cp? Either way the help
> > for both commands don't list -a or -l as flags on OS X under their help.
>
> $ cp --help
> ...
> Copy SOURCE to DEST, or multiple SOURCE(s) to DIRECTORY.
> ...
> Mandatory arguments to long options are mandatory for short options too.
>  -a, --archive                same as -dpR
> ...
>  -l, --link                   link files instead of copying
>
> Sounds like you need to upgrade to a real OS ;-)
>
> > The DVCS switch is not about us (at least not entirely). It's about the
> > people who want to help out but have not earned checking rights. It's
> about
> > giving them the best tools available to empower them to contribute to
> Python
> > in the easiest, best way possible.
>
> So the hypothetical requirements of one hypothetical developer is
> reason enough for breaking the current process for *everyone*,
> including core developers and non-development repository users (see my
> earlier mail)?  Given that all major DVCS:es seem to have solid
> support for *pulling* from an SVN master repository (and at least Git
> makes it easy to commit too), why not just let developers to use
> whatever tools they want when working on individual features, as long
> as they can provide a straightforward patch (or commit) at the end?
>
> </F>
>
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From mhammond at skippinet.com.au  Fri Feb 27 22:57:25 2009
From: mhammond at skippinet.com.au (Mark Hammond)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:57:25 +1100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>

Brett,
  We really appreciate your work on this PEP, but I wonder if the process itself isn't causing some of this friction:

> Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about 
> whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a 
> decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to 
> switch to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update 
> the PEP to address any questions that come up.

It sounds like you want people to hold feedback until you have finished the PEP - which will come complete with a *decision* about what to switch to, or not to switch at all?

It may be that people are concerned that if the PEP will be presented as a decision being made, the opportunity for meaninful input will have passed.

Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be?  ie, will it be closer to a recommendation, or will the final PEP be a final decision about what will (or will not) happen?

Thanks,

Mark


From brett at python.org  Fri Feb 27 23:07:28 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:07:28 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902271407y6159d52eo858bfdae1c1ff344@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 13:57, Mark Hammond <mhammond at skippinet.com.au>wrote:

> Brett,
>  We really appreciate your work on this PEP, but I wonder if the process
> itself isn't causing some of this friction:
>
> > Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about
> > whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a
> > decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to
> > switch to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update
> > the PEP to address any questions that come up.
>
> It sounds like you want people to hold feedback until you have finished the
> PEP - which will come complete with a *decision* about what to switch to, or
> not to switch at all?
>
> It may be that people are concerned that if the PEP will be presented as a
> decision being made, the opportunity for meaninful input will have passed.
>
> Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be?  ie, will it be
> closer to a recommendation, or will the final PEP be a final decision about
> what will (or will not) happen?


It's my recommendation. The only person who could force python-dev to switch
is the BDFL. The point of the PEP is so someone (namely me) examines what
our options are, figures out which one is the best DVCS for us, see if the
switch seems worth it and if it is figure out how to go about it, and then
present the results to python-dev just like any other PEP.

-Brett
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Fri Feb 27 23:13:18 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:13:18 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>

> It may be that people are concerned that if the PEP will be presented
> as a decision being made, the opportunity for meaninful input will
> have passed.

That is not the idea of the PEP process. Instead, it works like this:
an enhancement is proposed, and people can discuss it and give feedback.
They can indicate support, or suggest improvements, or indicate
rejection. After some revisions, the PEP is proposed to the BDFL, who
will pronounce. Traditionally, the BDFL has also considered the
community view (unless he has a strong opinion on his own).

> Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be?  ie, will it
> be closer to a recommendation, or will the final PEP be a final
> decision about what will (or will not) happen?

If the PEP process is followed (which I recommend it is), then it will
be a decision. Notice, however, that the PEP can be rejected (and
several PEPs *have* been rejected in the past, including some I wrote).

I'm strongly in favor of this process, even though I'm also opposed
to the likely proposition of the PEP (namely, to use something else
than subversion - else there would not need to be a PEP). It is
*very important* that the PEP provides a complete specification right
from the start, or else discussion will revolve around the open issues,
with no conclusion. So I'd rather have the PEP suggest that we switch
to bzr (say), so that I can vote that down, instead of giving options
in its final form.

Regards,
Martin

From python at rcn.com  Fri Feb 27 23:15:25 2009
From: python at rcn.com (Raymond Hettinger)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:15:25 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com><1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com><1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com><bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
Message-ID: <9AD93975473542FEA1FB60CED5CF020A@RaymondLaptop1>


[Mark Hammond]
> It sounds like you want people to hold feedback until you have finished the PEP - which will come complete with a *decision* about 
> what to switch to, or not to switch at all?
>
> It may be that people are concerned that if the PEP will be presented as a decision being made, the opportunity for meaninful 
> input will have passed.

FWIW, I share that concern.
These things can take on a life of their own
even if that wasn't the original intent.


Raymond 


From brett at python.org  Fri Feb 27 23:17:20 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 14:17:20 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol> <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol> <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 14:13, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:

> > It may be that people are concerned that if the PEP will be presented
> > as a decision being made, the opportunity for meaninful input will
> > have passed.
>
> That is not the idea of the PEP process. Instead, it works like this:
> an enhancement is proposed, and people can discuss it and give feedback.
> They can indicate support, or suggest improvements, or indicate
> rejection. After some revisions, the PEP is proposed to the BDFL, who
> will pronounce. Traditionally, the BDFL has also considered the
> community view (unless he has a strong opinion on his own).
>
> > Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be?  ie, will it
> > be closer to a recommendation, or will the final PEP be a final
> > decision about what will (or will not) happen?
>
> If the PEP process is followed (which I recommend it is), then it will
> be a decision. Notice, however, that the PEP can be rejected (and
> several PEPs *have* been rejected in the past, including some I wrote).
>
> I'm strongly in favor of this process, even though I'm also opposed
> to the likely proposition of the PEP (namely, to use something else
> than subversion - else there would not need to be a PEP). It is
> *very important* that the PEP provides a complete specification right
> from the start, or else discussion will revolve around the open issues,
> with no conclusion. So I'd rather have the PEP suggest that we switch
> to bzr (say), so that I can vote that down, instead of giving options
> in its final form.


It ain't going to be wishy-washy; there will be a very obvious suggestion of
what to switch to if a switch were to take place.

-Brett
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From mal at egenix.com  Fri Feb 27 23:34:42 2009
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:42 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <go9gid$1ha$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<go9gid$1ha$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49A86A82.6040701@egenix.com>

On 2009-02-27 20:56, Georg Brandl wrote:
> M.-A. Lemburg schrieb:
> 
>> IMHO, those are all feel-good factors which can easily be had by
>> installing a local Subversion repo copy (sync'ed using svnsync (*)),
>> except perhaps regarding merging - but I don't know anything about
>> in what way the DVCSes are better than Subversion.
>>
>> (*) This provides fast reads. Writes will still have to to the
>> main repo site. See
>> http://subversion.tigris.org/svn_1.5_releasenotes.html#webdav-proxy
> 
> So for merging we use svnmerge, for having a local repo we use svnsync.
> If we continue that way, perhaps there is a svnlocalcommit for on-the-fly
> committing, and so on.
> 
> But once you have to install, learn and maintain Subversion plus a handful
> of tools, just to get the same level of convenience you get for free with
> a DVCS, you can't tell me the former is easier than the latter.

I am not saying that. Just suggesting that this is possible with
Subversion as well, so it's not a technical argument for changing
the main repo system.

For those who want to use local commits, it's probably easier to just
go with one of the DVCS systems hooked up to the central SVN repo.

... and in two years, when DVCS 2.0 will be new and shiny, interested
developers can then use those systems to hook up to the central
SVN repo ;-)

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Feb 27 2009)
>>> Python/Zope Consulting and Support ...        http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope.Database.Adapter ...             http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::


   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From g.brandl at gmx.net  Fri Feb 27 23:46:20 2009
From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:46:20 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org>

Martin v. L?wis schrieb:

>> Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be?  ie, will it
>> be closer to a recommendation, or will the final PEP be a final
>> decision about what will (or will not) happen?
> 
> If the PEP process is followed (which I recommend it is), then it will
> be a decision. Notice, however, that the PEP can be rejected (and
> several PEPs *have* been rejected in the past, including some I wrote).

However, in this case it should perhaps rather be deferred, since we cannot
once and forever reject switching to a DVCS.

Georg


-- 
Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less.
Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy
indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou
two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Feb 28 00:23:41 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:23:41 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49A875FD.20605@v.loewis.de>

> However, in this case it should perhaps rather be deferred, since we cannot
> once and forever reject switching to a DVCS.

OTOH, we can't keep discussing forever whether we should switch, either.
If a decision is made not to switch, that decision should hold for a
couple of years - as long as the reason(s) for not switching remain
valid.

Regards,
Martin

From barry at python.org  Sat Feb 28 00:38:11 2009
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:38:11 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A875FD.20605@v.loewis.de>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org> <49A875FD.20605@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <877D3846-4B77-47DE-92E8-C5FFCEBA6A8E@python.org>

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On Feb 27, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Martin v. L?wis wrote:

>> However, in this case it should perhaps rather be deferred, since  
>> we cannot
>> once and forever reject switching to a DVCS.
>
> OTOH, we can't keep discussing forever whether we should switch,  
> either.
> If a decision is made not to switch, that decision should hold for a
> couple of years - as long as the reason(s) for not switching remain
> valid.

Originally, I had suggested considering the switch after the 2.6/3.0  
release.  I still think switching "soonish" after a major release is a  
good time (soonish can be 3 months, like we're now considering).  It  
definitely would /not/ be a good idea to switch anytime before a major  
release.  So if we defer the decision now, I think we need to look at  
the release calendar before choosing another window for the switch.

Barry

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From jafo at tummy.com  Sat Feb 28 00:41:29 2009
From: jafo at tummy.com (Sean Reifschneider)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:41:29 -0700
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>

Brett Cannon wrote:
> It ain't going to be wishy-washy; there will be a very obvious suggestion of

I know I haven't said much in this discussion, mostly because I don't
really care which one we pick.  It's just a tool, I'll use whatever.

But, I did want to say thanks to Brett for sticking his face in this fan.
:-)  It's a task of practically religious-war-proportions, and obviously is
something there are a lot of opinions and concerns over.  Thanks for
working on this.

Sean
-- 
Sean Reifschneider, Member of Technical Staff <jafo at tummy.com>
tummy.com, ltd. - Linux Consulting since 1995: Ask me about High Availability

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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Feb 28 01:04:15 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:04:15 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902271534y20beed6aj915293eaa0dbfa6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com> <1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902271534y20beed6aj915293eaa0dbfa6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>

No need for a long answer - just explain what the purpose of the survey is,
and why it isn't as biasad as it appears to be. A process where you're
actively discouraging people with a certain opinion from getting involved
isn't much of a process.

</F>

On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" <brett at python.org> wrote:

I had a long reply all written out, but instead I decided to discard it so
as to not continue to drag this discussion out. Why? The DVCS PEP is not
even finished yet!

Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about
whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a
decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to switch
to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update the PEP to
address any questions that come up.

-Brett

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:59, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 27, ...
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Feb 28 01:04:29 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 01:04:29 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com> <1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de> <go9qgl$1gp$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902271604y49120d55n71496ebb9cd4ebe6@mail.gmail.com>

On the other hand, given how quickly things move in the VC space, we might
as well end up in a situation where we don't need to do anything...

</F>

On Feb 27, 2009 11:47 PM, "Georg Brandl" <g.brandl at gmx.net> wrote:

Martin v. L?wis schrieb:

>> Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be? ie, will it >> be
closer to a recommend...
However, in this case it should perhaps rather be deferred, since we cannot
once and forever reject switching to a DVCS.

Georg -- Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more,
no less. Four shall b...

python-committers mailing list python-committers at python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/...
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From guido at python.org  Sat Feb 28 01:06:44 2009
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:06:44 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol> <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20902271606tc150e0dh7658f544ffaf3f29@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Sean Reifschneider <jafo at tummy.com> wrote:
> But, I did want to say thanks to Brett for sticking his face in this fan.
> :-) ?It's a task of practically religious-war-proportions, and obviously is
> something there are a lot of opinions and concerns over. ?Thanks for
> working on this.

Thanks to Brett in deed.

Would it help if I made a pronouncement? Let me express my personal
feelings. Note that I can still be swayed many ways, so don't consider
this a pronouncement, but perhaps it can serve as a catalyst for the
decision making process.

- Mercurial: IMO we can't go wrong with this. I've tried it a bit for
small projects, and it's very easy to learn for a SVN user. I've
talked to Bryan O'Sullivan, and I'm impressed by the customer list,
which includes Mozilla and Sun.

-  Bazaar: Probably okay, but I'm lukewarm about it. It is also
apparently still slower than Hg. It is married to Launchpad whose UI
continues to confuse and frustrate me (e.g. why is the "report a bug"
link so much more prominent on the overview page than the "download"
link?). I also am a little worried that Canonical is a little too
eager to get us as a "high profile customer". The good news is that
Bzr and Hg are so compatible that Bzr fans will be able to use Bzr
even if the master repository (probably on Benjamin's hard drive :-)
uses Hg.

- Keeping Subversion: This would sadden me, because merging really
sucks, even with the 1.5 merge tracking feature.

- Git: Too complex, and I've heard that a negative attitude prevails
in the Git  community.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From jnoller at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 01:08:45 2009
From: jnoller at gmail.com (jnoller at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:08:45 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902271604y49120d55n71496ebb9cd4ebe6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0016e64402809186f50463ef630f@google.com>

I don't think that the implicit assumption "that something better may one  
day come along" is something which negates action now. That's like  
saying "something better than python may come along, so I'll stick with  
$X". The fact is is that DVCes *are* an improvement over subversion,  
especially around patch/branching/etc. I guess I'm spoiled with systems  
which make branching/patching/merging eas(ier) tasks.

-jesse

On Feb 27, 2009 7:04pm, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:

> On the other hand, given how quickly things move in the VC space, we  
> might as well end up in a situation where we don't need to do anything...



> On Feb 27, 2009 11:47 PM, "Georg Brandl" g.brandl at gmx.net> wrote:

> Martin v. L?wis schrieb:



> >> Could you clarify for me: how binding will your PEP be? ie, will it
> >> be closer to a recommend...However, in this case it should perhaps  
> rather be deferred, since we cannot

> once and forever reject switching to a DVCS.



> Georg


> --
> Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less.
> Four shall b...
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/...
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From jnoller at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 01:11:39 2009
From: jnoller at gmail.com (jnoller at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 00:11:39 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>

The survey isn't biased. You have a value "the same /worse than the status  
quo" - wherein the status quo is subversion. If you hate DVCes, you mark it  
as "same/worse than the status quo" and we move on.

No one is suggesting we accept *less* functionality than subversion: in  
fact we're looking at these for *more* functionality.

On Feb 27, 2009 7:04pm, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:

> No need for a long answer - just explain what the purpose of the survey  
> is, and why it isn't as biasad as it appears to be. A process where  
> you're actively discouraging people with a certain opinion from getting  
> involved isn't much of a process.




> On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" brett at python.org> wrote:

> I had a long reply all written out, but instead I decided to discard it  
> so as to not continue to drag this discussion out. Why? The DVCS PEP is  
> not even finished yet!


> Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about  
> whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a  
> decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to switch  
> to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update the PEP  
> to address any questions that come up.



> -Brett



> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:59, Fredrik Lundh fredrik at pythonware.com>  
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 27, ...
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From brett at python.org  Sat Feb 28 01:25:51 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:25:51 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol> <49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol> <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902271534y20beed6aj915293eaa0dbfa6e@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902271625j375e3833o9c2db8baed0c5a53@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 16:04, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:

> No need for a long answer - just explain what the purpose of the survey is,
>

To see what committers think about the various DVCSs and if one happens to
be disliked by a majority of developer when compared to svn as a baseline.


> and why it isn't as biasad as it appears to be. A process where you're
> actively discouraging people with a certain opinion from getting involved
> isn't much of a process.
>

I just wanted some data, nothing more. This was not meant to spark a debate
else this would have occurred over at python-dev. I just wanted to know what
people thought in order to potentially eliminate a DVCS from the running to
make my life easier in writing the PEP. Next time I will flat-out write "DO
NOT TAKE THIS SURVEY SERIOUSLY" and still hope people take the time to fill
it out.

-Brett

</F>
>
> On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" <brett at python.org> wrote:
>
> I had a long reply all written out, but instead I decided to discard it so
> as to not continue to drag this discussion out. Why? The DVCS PEP is not
> even finished yet!
>
> Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about
> whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a
> decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to switch
> to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update the PEP to
> address any questions that come up.
>
> -Brett
>
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:59, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com>
> wrote: > > On Fri, Feb 27, ...
>
>
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From brett at python.org  Sat Feb 28 01:35:35 2009
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:35:35 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol> <49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
Message-ID: <bbaeab100902271635wcaca5e2v6b5899e28b530bc7@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 15:41, Sean Reifschneider <jafo at tummy.com> wrote:

> Brett Cannon wrote:
> > It ain't going to be wishy-washy; there will be a very obvious suggestion
> of
>
> I know I haven't said much in this discussion, mostly because I don't
> really care which one we pick.  It's just a tool, I'll use whatever.
>
> But, I did want to say thanks to Brett for sticking his face in this fan.
> :-)


You're welcome.


>  It's a task of practically religious-war-proportions, and obviously is
> something there are a lot of opinions and concerns over.


I think people take me seriously now when I say this has become the
vim/Emacs war as of late.


>  Thanks for
> working on this.
>

Just don't let me do something like this again for a VERY LONG TIME. Thanks
to the support of various people I will stick this out, but I am so close to
burn-out that sheer determination is about the only thing keeping me going
on this.

-Brett
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Feb 28 08:22:13 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:22:13 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <0016e64402809186f50463ef630f@google.com>
References: <0016e64402809186f50463ef630f@google.com>
Message-ID: <49A8E625.3080703@v.loewis.de>

jnoller at gmail.com wrote:
> The fact is is that DVCes *are* an improvement over subversion,
> especially around patch/branching/etc. 

I think the core of the problem/discussion is that many (including
me) don't accept this as a fact. It has not been *demonstrated*
to me that they are better, and I don't accept word-of-mouth as
a proof. My own personal experience tells me git and bzr are much
worse than subversion (each in different respects).

Regards,
Martin

From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Feb 28 08:51:25 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:51:25 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>
	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>

The bias is that the framing of the survey doesn't distinguish between
"better in absolute terms" and "better given that we already have a working
system and that there's a cost for *lots* of people if we switch". I'm
surprised that you can claim that everything's ok even though several people
that appear to be concerned about the latter has stated that they won't
participate in the survey.

</F>

On Feb 28, 2009 1:11 AM, <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:

The survey isn't biased. You have a value "the same /worse than the status
quo" - wherein the status quo is subversion. If you hate DVCes, you mark it
as "same/worse than the status quo" and we move on.

No one is suggesting we accept *less* functionality than subversion: in fact
we're looking at these for *more* functionality.

On Feb 27, 2009 7:04pm, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote: > > No
need for a long answe...

> On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" brett at python.org> wrote: > > I had
a long reply all writt...
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Feb 28 10:09:19 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:09:19 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20902271606tc150e0dh7658f544ffaf3f29@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au>
	<49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
	<ca471dc20902271606tc150e0dh7658f544ffaf3f29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902280109l3a446526m7a18bcf804419af4@mail.gmail.com>

What's Hg:s story on Svn integration? To what extent can you use it with a
Svn master repo?

(Btw, I would have said that Git is probably the one that's moving the
fastest right now, and where the most interesting work is being done - but
their Windows story is a tragedy (at least last time I checked) and I agree
that the portions of the "community" that shows up in public places isn't
always helping... I'm also a big fan of dogfooding, so picking a good-enough
Python-powered Vcs definitely makes sense to me. If we need to pick one,
that is. I'm still not convinced...)

</F>

On Feb 28, 2009 1:06 AM, "Guido van Rossum" <guido at python.org> wrote:

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Sean Reifschneider <jafo at tummy.com> wrote:
> But, I did want to say...
Thanks to Brett in deed.

Would it help if I made a pronouncement? Let me express my personal
feelings. Note that I can still be swayed many ways, so don't consider
this a pronouncement, but perhaps it can serve as a catalyst for the
decision making process.

- Mercurial: IMO we can't go wrong with this. I've tried it a bit for
small projects, and it's very easy to learn for a SVN user. I've
talked to Bryan O'Sullivan, and I'm impressed by the customer list,
which includes Mozilla and Sun.

-  Bazaar: Probably okay, but I'm lukewarm about it. It is also
apparently still slower than Hg. It is married to Launchpad whose UI
continues to confuse and frustrate me (e.g. why is the "report a bug"
link so much more prominent on the overview page than the "download"
link?). I also am a little worried that Canonical is a little too
eager to get us as a "high profile customer". The good news is that
Bzr and Hg are so compatible that Bzr fans will be able to use Bzr
even if the master repository (probably on Benjamin's hard drive :-)
uses Hg.

- Keeping Subversion: This would sadden me, because merging really
sucks, even with the 1.5 merge tracking feature.

- Git: Too complex, and I've heard that a negative attitude prevails
in the Git  community.

--
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

_______________________________________________ python-committers mailing
list python-committers at pyt...
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From fredrik at pythonware.com  Sat Feb 28 10:16:22 2009
From: fredrik at pythonware.com (Fredrik Lundh)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:16:22 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>
	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>

Btw, one of my concerns is that a move away from Svn breaks the process for
people who pull sources from Svn to build their own Pythons. I know a few
teams that do that, and switching to another system isn't just an apt-get
away for them. Do we have enough log info to be able to determine how common
it is that people pull down source kits using Svn?

</F>

On Feb 28, 2009 1:11 AM, <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:

The survey isn't biased. You have a value "the same /worse than the status
quo" - wherein the status quo is subversion. If you hate DVCes, you mark it
as "same/worse than the status quo" and we move on.

No one is suggesting we accept *less* functionality than subversion: in fact
we're looking at these for *more* functionality.

On Feb 27, 2009 7:04pm, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote: > > No
need for a long answe...

> On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" brett at python.org> wrote: > > I had
a long reply all writt...
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Feb 28 10:35:07 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:35:07 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A9054B.60902@v.loewis.de>

Fredrik Lundh wrote:
> Btw, one of my concerns is that a move away from Svn breaks the process
> for people who pull sources from Svn to build their own Pythons. I know
> a few teams that do that, and switching to another system isn't just an
> apt-get away for them. Do we have enough log info to be able to
> determine how common it is that people pull down source kits using Svn?

With the limitation that svn urls are difficult to process, see

http://svn.python.org/webstats/

The actual logs themselves roll over after four days.

Regards,
Martin

From bob at redivi.com  Sat Feb 28 11:18:54 2009
From: bob at redivi.com (Bob Ippolito)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:18:54 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>
	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6a36e7290902280218k4e762439sdad31c4557aa788d@mail.gmail.com>

Why not add a requirement to the PEP such that if a DVCS is chosen
then a read-only SVN mirror or gateway should be maintained? Would
that be a reasonable compromise?

I have more or less the same opinion as Guido regarding svn merge. It
sucks. We bump up against problems with svn merge tracking on a
regular basis at work. We'd have switched to a DVCS by now if it
wasn't for tool support (trac mostly) and the fact that we use a lot
of svn:externals in our repository.

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote:
> Btw, one of my concerns is that a move away from Svn breaks the process for
> people who pull sources from Svn to build their own Pythons. I know a few
> teams that do that, and switching to another system isn't just an apt-get
> away for them. Do we have enough log info to be able to determine how common
> it is that people pull down source kits using Svn?
>
> </F>
>
> On Feb 28, 2009 1:11 AM, <jnoller at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The survey isn't biased. You have a value "the same /worse than the status
> quo" - wherein the status quo is subversion. If you hate DVCes, you mark it
> as "same/worse than the status quo" and we move on.
>
> No one is suggesting we accept *less* functionality than subversion: in fact
> we're looking at these for *more* functionality.
>
> On Feb 27, 2009 7:04pm, Fredrik Lundh <fredrik at pythonware.com> wrote: > > No
> need for a long answe...
>
>> On Feb 27, 2009 9:24 PM, "Brett Cannon" brett at python.org> wrote: > > I had
>> a long reply all writt...
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>
>

From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 11:27:02 2009
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 20:27:02 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <6a36e7290902280218k4e762439sdad31c4557aa788d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a36e7290902280218k4e762439sdad31c4557aa788d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A91176.6020106@gmail.com>

Bob Ippolito wrote:
> I have more or less the same opinion as Guido regarding svn merge. It
> sucks. We bump up against problems with svn merge tracking on a
> regular basis at work. We'd have switched to a DVCS by now if it
> wasn't for tool support (trac mostly) and the fact that we use a lot
> of svn:externals in our repository.

We have a few of those (svn:externals) as well... Brett, another
question for your DVCS champions!

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Sat Feb 28 11:28:50 2009
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:28:50 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <368a5cd50902280109l3a446526m7a18bcf804419af4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
	<015d01c99926$62b229a0$28167ce0$@com.au> <49A8657E.2050308@v.loewis.de>
	<bbaeab100902271417i76f01558i2919bdeb6b587d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A87A29.7050109@tummy.com>
	<ca471dc20902271606tc150e0dh7658f544ffaf3f29@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280109l3a446526m7a18bcf804419af4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1235816930.6644.17.camel@fsol>

Le samedi 28 f?vrier 2009 ? 10:09 +0100, Fredrik Lundh a ?crit :
> What's Hg:s story on Svn integration? To what extent can you use it
> with a Svn master repo?

hgsubversion is supposed to allow bidirectional integration:
http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/HgSubversion

If you just need a one-way bridge (and are ready to accept manually
commiting patches to the SVN repo, which is what I'm doing with Python),
there are a bunch of possibilities besides hgsubversion: the builtin "hg
convert" command, hgsvn, and probably others.




From guido at python.org  Sat Feb 28 16:57:22 2009
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 07:57:22 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A9054B.60902@v.loewis.de>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>
	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>
	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>
	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A9054B.60902@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <ca471dc20902280757s5480ebd6g156247122977820@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:35 AM, "Martin v. L?wis" <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Fredrik Lundh wrote:
>> Btw, one of my concerns is that a move away from Svn breaks the process
>> for people who pull sources from Svn to build their own Pythons. I know
>> a few teams that do that, and switching to another system isn't just an
>> apt-get away for them. Do we have enough log info to be able to
>> determine how common it is that people pull down source kits using Svn?
>
> With the limitation that svn urls are difficult to process, see
>
> http://svn.python.org/webstats/
>
> The actual logs themselves roll over after four days.

What on earth happened between May and June 2008? The number of
"visits" went down dramatically (at least 3x), and stayed at that
level ever since.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)

From skip at pobox.com  Sat Feb 28 17:28:35 2009
From: skip at pobox.com (skip at pobox.com)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 10:28:35 -0600
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A8E625.3080703@v.loewis.de>
References: <0016e64402809186f50463ef630f@google.com>
	<49A8E625.3080703@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <18857.26163.932827.4915@montanaro.dyndns.org>


    Martin> My own personal experience tells me git and bzr are much worse
    Martin> than subversion (each in different respects).

Perhaps you could relay these shortcomings to Brett or edit them into the
PEP directly.

Skip

From theller at ctypes.org  Sat Feb 28 17:41:22 2009
From: theller at ctypes.org (Thomas Heller)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:41:22 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<bbaeab100902261921h2012f40fy3a735fce5e22f3a1@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902270259o14dfe257hf595a2860020e674@mail.gmail.com>
	<bbaeab100902271223u427c65b8we08c9abf32684e8e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A96932.6090105@ctypes.org>

Brett Cannon schrieb:
> I had a long reply all written out, but instead I decided to discard it so
> as to not continue to drag this discussion out. Why? The DVCS PEP is not
> even finished yet!
> 
> Can you guys please let me finish the PEP before you start worrying about
> whether we are going to switch? At least give me the chance to make a
> decision on whether I think it is reasonable to switch and what to switch
> to. And then we can have a reasonable conversation where I update the PEP to
> address any questions that come up.

What I would *like* to see in the PEP is a discussion of support tools
for these systems.  For CVS, I have used pcl-cvs in XEmacs, and psvn.el
for SVN.
I guess there is a Tortoise variant available for all these DVCSs, but
for example (haven't tried it myself) weak support for mercurial in XEmacs.

Thanks,
Thomas

From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Feb 28 19:27:32 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:27:32 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <18857.26163.932827.4915@montanaro.dyndns.org>
References: <0016e64402809186f50463ef630f@google.com>
	<49A8E625.3080703@v.loewis.de>
	<18857.26163.932827.4915@montanaro.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <49A98214.2030803@v.loewis.de>

skip at pobox.com wrote:
>     Martin> My own personal experience tells me git and bzr are much worse
>     Martin> than subversion (each in different respects).
> 
> Perhaps you could relay these shortcomings to Brett or edit them into the
> PEP directly.

As I said: I refrain from commenting at this point, as much as I can.
When (if) the PEP reaches a final form, I can start discussing its content.

Regards,
Martin

From lists at cheimes.de  Sat Feb 28 19:34:57 2009
From: lists at cheimes.de (Christian Heimes)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:34:57 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <49A91176.6020106@gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>	<6a36e7290902280218k4e762439sdad31c4557aa788d@mail.gmail.com>
	<49A91176.6020106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A983D1.5090301@cheimes.de>

Nick Coghlan wrote:
> Bob Ippolito wrote:
>> I have more or less the same opinion as Guido regarding svn merge. It
>> sucks. We bump up against problems with svn merge tracking on a
>> regular basis at work. We'd have switched to a DVCS by now if it
>> wasn't for tool support (trac mostly) and the fact that we use a lot
>> of svn:externals in our repository.
> 
> We have a few of those (svn:externals) as well... Brett, another
> question for your DVCS champions!

As far as I can recall the PEP doesn't cover metadata at all. Subversion
supports metadata in properties via svn prop[set|get|del]. Do the DVCS
support properties, too? What about svn:ignore (ignore files and
directories via glob style patterns), svn:keywords (expand keywords like
$ID$), svn:executable (chmods a file a+x) and svn:eol-style (forces a
line ending style).

Christian


From martin at v.loewis.de  Sat Feb 28 21:02:37 2009
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 21:02:37 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <ca471dc20902280757s5480ebd6g156247122977820@mail.gmail.com>
References: <368a5cd50902271604u769083a7na8dc562ecb62025@mail.gmail.com>	
	<00163630ee1dee73860463ef6d4d@google.com>	
	<368a5cd50902272345y74fb1711g626ad471161bf10b@mail.gmail.com>	
	<368a5cd50902272351l5293b4bck68151f0357ba9fdf@mail.gmail.com>	
	<368a5cd50902280112n1b8a886bie0a9bf9744fb48ea@mail.gmail.com>	
	<368a5cd50902280116u7052c604r2c007bc90c86d7ef@mail.gmail.com>	
	<49A9054B.60902@v.loewis.de>
	<ca471dc20902280757s5480ebd6g156247122977820@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49A9985D.9060404@v.loewis.de>

> What on earth happened between May and June 2008? The number of
> "visits" went down dramatically (at least 3x), and stayed at that
> level ever since.

As we don't have the log files anymore, it's hard to tell. My guess
is that it is some automated procedure that completed or got turned
off. For example, on PyPI, a single system was producing 25% of the hits
for some time, trying to keep PyPI mirrored (and the operator didn't
even know it was running).

For svn.python.org, here are some guesses:

- webalizer only counts accesses to PageType URLs as potential
  visits (and as a new visit only if there was no access within 30min
  from that IP). In our configuration, htm*, cgi, and py are PageType
  URLs. So regular svn accesses don't trigger a visit.
- in March 2008, there were 6810 accesses to /webstats/usage_200705.html
  (for whatever reason, from whatever hosts)

So the number of visits is probably irrelevant for that site.

Regards,
Martin

From g.brandl at gmx.net  Sat Feb 28 22:41:54 2009
From: g.brandl at gmx.net (Georg Brandl)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 22:41:54 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <1235668878.7109.82.camel@fsol>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>
	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>
	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>
	<1235668878.7109.82.camel@fsol>
Message-ID: <gocb3s$tj7$1@ger.gmane.org>

Antoine Pitrou schrieb:
> Le jeudi 26 f?vrier 2009 ? 17:10 +0100, M.-A. Lemburg a ?crit :
>> This is probably a matter of Internet connection bandwidth then.
> 
> Not really.
> To give a point of comparison, when I clone (using Mercurial) the Python
> trunk at http://code.python.org/hg/trunk, it takes 2 minutes 50 seconds.
> That's for the whole trunk history from 1990 to today, and bandwidth is
> around 500 KB/s (sustained) during the downloading.
> 
> So, having svnmerge take one minute or more from a machine hosted at the
> same place as code.python.org points to a really slow merge
> implementation IMO.
> 
>> I have no idea how much data gets transferred, but it doesn't
>> "feel" slow.
> 
> It definitely feels slow when you merge from e.g. trunk to py3k.

It doesn't only *feel* slow, it *is* slow.  And not only compared to merging
with a DVCS, which doesn't need network.  Half a minute to merge a three-line
change is not productive.

Not to mention the various other problems with svnmerge, e.g. having to pack
several merges into "batch" commits which then are atomic on the merged-to
branch (which bites us merging from 3.1 to 3.0).  (And no, merging each commit
individually is not an option, because it takes even *longer*.)

Frankly, there are very few people who routinely (like Benjamin) or even only
sometimes (like me) merge larger amounts of stuff between our four branches.
While that's no surprise, given how clumsy svnmerge makes it, others shouldn't
just dismiss the merging problem with "we have svnmerge".

Georg

-- 
Thus spake the Lord: Thou shalt indent with four spaces. No more, no less.
Four shall be the number of spaces thou shalt indent, and the number of thy
indenting shall be four. Eight shalt thou not indent, nor either indent thou
two, excepting that thou then proceed to four. Tabs are right out.


From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Sat Feb 28 23:43:09 2009
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 08:43:09 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Survey about DVCSs compared to svn
In-Reply-To: <gocb3s$tj7$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <bbaeab100902251431q5f1d8a35pfe40e515e682a1a5@mail.gmail.com>	<49A5D0C1.3040404@egenix.com>	<00df01c997a1$b5191ae0$1f4b50a0$@com.au>	<F519D8D6-842D-458E-8DA7-0B09DF95C33B@python.org>	<49A64ABD.1030108@v.loewis.de>	<85AC071A-78DE-4FAC-ADE7-FA78BB737B48@python.org>	<49A6A6BD.4010308@egenix.com>	<1235659804.7109.34.camel@fsol>	<49A6B100.40304@egenix.com>	<1235662601.7109.48.camel@fsol>	<49A6BEF8.4030201@egenix.com>	<1235668878.7109.82.camel@fsol>
	<gocb3s$tj7$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <49A9BDFD.5070607@gmail.com>

Georg Brandl wrote:
> It doesn't only *feel* slow, it *is* slow.  And not only compared to merging
> with a DVCS, which doesn't need network.  Half a minute to merge a three-line
> change is not productive.

Don't forget that *blocking* a revision with svnmerge seems to take
nearly as long as actually merging it does (the only part that seems to
save time is the fact that you don't need to build and/or run the test
suite afterwards).

Cheers,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------