From michael at voidspace.org.uk  Thu Nov  1 13:28:45 2012
From: michael at voidspace.org.uk (Michael Foord)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 12:28:45 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Python Language Summit at PyCon 2013 (Wed 13th)
Message-ID: <AB8FEFB9-8A94-4FBF-BF36-CE29F04ED442@voidspace.org.uk>

Hey all,

PyCon 2013 is in Santa Clara, March 13-21st 2013. As in previous years we will be having a Python language summit, open to all CPython committers and invited individuals from the other implementations of Python and the Python community.

The purpose of the summit will be to discuss language development, co-operation between the different implementations, and anything else that seems relevant.

Not all the details of the summit are settled (the room hasn't been fixed yet) but I will post updates as they come in.

What we do know:

	* The summit will be on Wednesday 13th March
	* The summit will be from 10:30am to 4pm

There will be breaks, including lunch provided, and hopefully we will have wifi and a projector in the room.

If you are able to come please reply to me (off list) so I can keep a track of numbers.

If you have any topics you would like to discuss at the summit then let me know and I can add them to the agenda.

All the best,

Michael Foord

--
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/


May you do good and not evil
May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others
May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
-- the sqlite blessing 
http://www.sqlite.org/different.html






From lukasz at langa.pl  Wed Nov  7 09:45:57 2012
From: lukasz at langa.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?=A3ukasz_Langa?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:45:57 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
Message-ID: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>

I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):

http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36

Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general? 

-- 
Best regards,
?ukasz Langa
Senior Systems Architecture Engineer

IT Infrastructure Department
Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.

http://lukasz.langa.pl/
+48 791 080 144

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From mal at egenix.com  Wed Nov  7 10:25:11 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:25:11 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <509A28F7.2030500@egenix.com>

On 07.11.2012 09:45, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
> 
> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general? 

I've reverted his changes. The wiki guidelines are much too important
to have them changed significantly without any discussion on
pydotorg-www (or wherever such things are discussed :-)).

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Nov 07 2012)
>>> Python Projects, Consulting and Support ...   http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 10:46:59 2012
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:46:59 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <CADiSq7cke6j-QAizU=y_-NPisPJucOqUc5bSWDDEUkK1X9xYFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:45 PM, ?ukasz Langa <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
> largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it
> seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he
> edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do
> not agree with!" note (yes, really):
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
>
> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
> general?

As far as I know, most of the core committers that follow python-ideas
at all already have him killfiled so we don't see his messages, only
replies to him. I believe I was one of the last holdouts, but relented
after losing my temper with him a few times earlier this year and
realising I no longer had any patience for him, after spending a lot
of time trying to help channel his passion in more productive
directions.

That's always been the problem - his passion for Python is clear, but
he's completely clueless when it comes to dealing with people, so it
ultimately just isn't worth the hassle of trying to engage. It's
starting to sound like we may need to do something more drastic than
just ignoring him, though - the occasional good idea he's come up with
may not be worth the cost it is having in terms of annoying other
community members :(

Sadly,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia

From ronaldoussoren at mac.com  Wed Nov  7 10:53:04 2012
From: ronaldoussoren at mac.com (Ronald Oussoren)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:53:04 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <FA35C1F6-680C-448F-8976-F3E6804FF8D2@mac.com>


On 7 Nov, 2012, at 9:45, ?ukasz Langa <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:

> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):
> 
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
> 
> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in general? 

I don't think it is worthwhile to react beyond the revert that Marc Andre did.  He appears to mean well, but has trouble communicating clearly.  I've noticed that while I still read his e-mails to python-ideas I do give them ever less attention because he appears to just drop of half-baked ideas without any intention of following up on them.

That said, I have received a number of useful contributions from him for other projects.

Ronald

> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> ?ukasz Langa
> Senior Systems Architecture Engineer
> 
> IT Infrastructure Department
> Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.
> 
> http://lukasz.langa.pl/
> +48 791 080 144
> 
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers

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From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Nov  7 13:06:09 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (=?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiB2LiBMw7Z3aXMi?=)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 13:06:09 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>

Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:
> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
> largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
> it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
> he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
> you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
>
> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
> general?

I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.

If the wiki maintainers want to ban him from modifying the wiki, they
have my support.

Regards,
Martin



From lukasz at langa.pl  Wed Nov  7 14:26:15 2012
From: lukasz at langa.pl (=?iso-8859-2?Q?=A3ukasz_Langa?=)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
Message-ID: <08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>

Wiadomo?? napisana przez Martin v. L?wis <martin at v.loewis.de> w dniu 7 lis 2012, o godz. 13:06:

> Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:
>> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
>> largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
>> it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
>> he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
>> you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):
>> 
>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
>> 
>> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
>> general?
> 
> I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
> For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
> care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.

I have been doing the same thing for quite some time, too. Lately though I gave some thought into this and I think maintaining the status quo is harmful to us as a community. I'd like us to react somehow.

I agree with Jacob Kaplan-Moss when he says [1]: "I will call out antisocial behavior, enforce professionalism in the communities where I have the power to do, and leave the communities that cannot at least offer civility."

More generally, Eliezer Yudkowsky's opinion [2] resonates with me: "good online communities die primarily by refusing to defend themselves". While this sounds overly dramatic, it describes the gist of the problem: quality goes down to the point where helpful members stop caring.

What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.

All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member is worse than keeping him around?

[1] http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/
[2] http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
[3] http://www.informationweek.com/how-to-keep-hostile-jerks-from-taking-ov/199600005

-- 
Best regards,
?ukasz Langa
Senior Systems Architecture Engineer

IT Infrastructure Department
Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.

http://lukasz.langa.pl/
+48 791 080 144

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From brett at python.org  Wed Nov  7 14:54:23 2012
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:54:23 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W6MuxM=g65KNz34ZREvO7N_XgTS0E5kCwGRHZtaWJVTXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:26 AM, ?ukasz Langa <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:

> Wiadomo?? napisana przez Martin v. L?wis <martin at v.loewis.de> w dniu 7
> lis 2012, o godz. 13:06:
>
> Am 07.11.12 09:45, schrieb ?ukasz Langa:
>
> I'd like to raise a concern that Anatoly's actions are disruptive and
> largely unhelpful. His passive-agressive writing style is well known but
> it seems this no longer satisfies him. Today, without consulting anyone
> he edited our Wiki guidelines and removed the "Do not remove guidelines
> you do not agree with!" note (yes, really):
>
> http://wiki.python.org/moin/WikiGuidelines?action=diff&rev1=35&rev2=36
>
> Should we react in any way? How do you perceive his contributions in
> general?
>
>
I perceive his contributions as worthless. He points out real issues and
then blows way past reasonableness with how to resolve them, being rude in
the process.


>
> I (am known to) perceive his contributions in the most negative way.
> For several times, I was close to banning him from certain systems I
> care about, but rather chose to ignore him instead.
>
>
> I have been doing the same thing for quite some time, too. Lately though I
> gave some thought into this and I think maintaining the status quo is
> harmful to us as a community. I'd like us to react somehow.
>
> I agree with Jacob Kaplan-Moss when he says [1]: "I will call out
> antisocial behavior, enforce professionalism in the communities where I
> have the power to do, and leave the communities that cannot at least
> offer civility."
>
> More generally, Eliezer Yudkowsky's opinion [2] resonates with me: "good
> online communities die primarily by refusing to defend themselves". While
> this sounds overly dramatic, it describes the gist of the problem: quality
> goes down to the point where helpful members stop caring.
>
> What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
> towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea.
>

So before I started to send his emails into a blackhole, I called him out
multiple times, to the point of basically yelling at him over email for
being a jerk (this was when he called for the dissolving of the PSF board
because he thought they were doing a bad job). He has been told multiple
times he needs to change his attitude and he has yet to do so.


> Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real
> life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
> the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them
> up" [3].
>

He actually cornered me at PyCon in 2011 and he is pushy in person. He
wasn't rude, but trying to explain to him that his view isn't reasonable
doesn't not get through in-person either. I actually had to just walk away
from the conversation to stop myself from yelling at him (he thought the
state of the web-related libraries, e.g. urllib, were not great so to
resolve it all the core developers should participate in rewriting
python.org from scratch in order to suffer and thus be motivated to fix the
libraries).


>  If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of
> communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.
>
>
The problem is how do we do that? Do the owners of various systems take it
upon themselves or do we take on some concerted effort across the whole
community? I mean I'm a moderator on python-ideas, but no one has directly
complained to python-ideas-owner@ yet (although I guess I indirectly
complained to myself when I started to auto-delete his emails and some
people have personally vented to me as a friend) and I can't make him never
appear on the issue tracker again (at least I don't think only Martin can).
Does the PSF need to get involved somehow if we try to do a community-wide
thing instead of a per-system thing where it's more at the discretion of
the maintainers?


> All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member
> is worse than keeping him around?
>

No.

-Brett



>
> [1] http://jacobian.org/writing/assholes/
> [2] http://lesswrong.com/lw/c1/wellkept_gardens_die_by_pacifism/
> [3]
> http://www.informationweek.com/how-to-keep-hostile-jerks-from-taking-ov/199600005
>
>   --
> Best regards,
> ?ukasz Langa
> Senior Systems Architecture Engineer
>
> IT Infrastructure Department
> Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o.
>
> http://lukasz.langa.pl/
> +48 791 080 144
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>
>
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From mal at egenix.com  Wed Nov  7 15:00:48 2012
From: mal at egenix.com (M.-A. Lemburg)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 15:00:48 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <509A6990.5040706@egenix.com>

On 07.11.2012 14:26, ?ukasz Langa wrote:
> What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.

Cory's point is a good one and, at least in my experience, often works
wonders.

Call him on the phone or invite him to a conference. He's based
in Minsk, Belarus, AFAIK.

-- 
Marc-Andre Lemburg
eGenix.com

Professional Python Services directly from the Source  (#1, Nov 07 2012)
>>> Python Projects, Consulting and Support ...   http://www.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC.Zope/Plone.Database.Adapter ...       http://zope.egenix.com/
>>> mxODBC, mxDateTime, mxTextTools ...        http://python.egenix.com/
________________________________________________________________________

::: Try our new mxODBC.Connect Python Database Interface for free ! ::::

   eGenix.com Software, Skills and Services GmbH  Pastor-Loeh-Str.48
    D-40764 Langenfeld, Germany. CEO Dipl.-Math. Marc-Andre Lemburg
           Registered at Amtsgericht Duesseldorf: HRB 46611
               http://www.egenix.com/company/contact/

From dirkjan at ochtman.nl  Wed Nov  7 15:05:03 2012
From: dirkjan at ochtman.nl (Dirkjan Ochtman)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 15:05:03 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W6MuxM=g65KNz34ZREvO7N_XgTS0E5kCwGRHZtaWJVTXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<CAP1=2W6MuxM=g65KNz34ZREvO7N_XgTS0E5kCwGRHZtaWJVTXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKmKYaD4-kSwmcgYT0t=b2EZFtG5G-bjeZWpGLjJr0xGa3AtUA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 2:54 PM, Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>>  If that fails, banning him would show that we care about the quality of
>> communication and technical prowess is no excuse for abusive behavior.
>
> The problem is how do we do that? Do the owners of various systems take it
> upon themselves or do we take on some concerted effort across the whole
> community? I mean I'm a moderator on python-ideas, but no one has directly
> complained to python-ideas-owner@ yet (although I guess I indirectly
> complained to myself when I started to auto-delete his emails and some
> people have personally vented to me as a friend) and I can't make him never
> appear on the issue tracker again (at least I don't think only Martin can).
> Does the PSF need to get involved somehow if we try to do a community-wide
> thing instead of a per-system thing where it's more at the discretion of the
> maintainers?

If nothing else, it seems like the time has come to get the ball
rolling on this, so we at least have a plan for how to do this kind of
thing?

I would definitely agree that his contributions here (and elsewhere,
BTW) are negative enough that banning is warranted.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Wed Nov  7 15:08:33 2012
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 09:08:33 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
> What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
> towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
> Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
> -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
> the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
> them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
> the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
> abusive behavior.

As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
The problem with banning him in general is that that has its own
consequences (and as Brett pointed out, how exactly do we do that?).
Banning him for specific actions (such as editing the Guidelines)
seems sensible.  We basically booted him off the infrastructure mailing
list (I don't remember if it was a formal ban or not) when he was being
off-topic and annoying there.

> All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
> member is worse than keeping him around?

If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
no-brainer.  However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

--David

From guido at python.org  Wed Nov  7 16:11:59 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 07:11:59 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+eOuJk0ZxXLZobrU3mjqr_iSfHxnVb+t_KLJ99AVNcfA@mail.gmail.com>

I sent Anatoly a note and suggested that we talk on Skype. We'll see what
happens.


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com>wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
> > What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
> > towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
> > Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
> > -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
> > the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
> > them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
> > the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
> > abusive behavior.
>
> As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
> pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
> The problem with banning him in general is that that has its own
> consequences (and as Brett pointed out, how exactly do we do that?).
> Banning him for specific actions (such as editing the Guidelines)
> seems sensible.  We basically booted him off the infrastructure mailing
> list (I don't remember if it was a formal ban or not) when he was being
> off-topic and annoying there.
>
> > All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
> > member is worse than keeping him around?
>
> If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
> no-brainer.  However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
> would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).
>
> --David
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 17:26:54 2012
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 02:26:54 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CADiSq7eunhgrt_jtuuWTVX3DrED_X1Yt0iAkyaaGKse0ZoGq1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 12:08 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
>> All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
>> member is worse than keeping him around?
>
> If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
> no-brainer.  However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
> would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

Right, it isn't banning Anatoly in particular that's likely to be
controversial, it's making it completely clear that "yes, if you
successfully piss off all the people that hold the keys to the
python.org infrastructure, you can and will be banned from
participating in any of the communication forums provided by that
infrastructure, specifically the mailing lists, the issue tracker and
the wiki (and the source code repo, if you previously had commit
privileges)".

The mail archives will show that Brett's not the only one that has
tried to channel Anatoly's energy more productively (and the creation
of python-ideas did keep him from bothering python-dev too much for
quite a long time), but every time we think there are signs of
progress, some other new issue comes up and the pattern is always
basically the same:
- "X sucks"
- "Yes, it's a hard problem, and not very exciting, so volunteers
aren't inclined to work on it"
- "but X sucks, so we should do Y"
- "but Y is hugely inconvenient for everyone, so it will never happen.
Besides, even if it did happen, it won't help fix X"
- "we should totally do Y, you're all idiots for not seeing that"
- ...

Although substitute alternate explanations at step 2 like "it's a rare
problem" or "it's not a problem for the core team to deal with", or
"it's not a significant problem for anyone else" or "yes, efforts are
in process to deal with that, but its a long slow effort to build
community consensus" etc, etc.

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia

From chris.jerdonek at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 17:38:50 2012
From: chris.jerdonek at gmail.com (Chris Jerdonek)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 08:38:50 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CAOTb1wdVs2FMrXEyqBFDuWJ3CofcALDQBK==TW-bUnhCb6596g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
>> What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
>> towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
>> Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
>> -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
>> the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
>> them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
>> the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
>> abusive behavior.
>
> As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
> pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.

Aside from calling him out on his behavior and trying to change it,
has anyone additionally made it clear to him that "if you continue
this behavior, you will be banned from [insert as appropriate]"?  Or
is an explicit warning not needed?

--Chris

From brian at python.org  Wed Nov  7 17:53:28 2012
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:53:28 -0600
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAOTb1wdVs2FMrXEyqBFDuWJ3CofcALDQBK==TW-bUnhCb6596g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
	<CAOTb1wdVs2FMrXEyqBFDuWJ3CofcALDQBK==TW-bUnhCb6596g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwpZODLhppTSZnQ803ha+WXNDmTJn4XJioFzTfR3a=aJXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 10:38 AM, Chris Jerdonek
<chris.jerdonek at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:08 AM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:26:15 +0100, <lukasz at langa.pl> wrote:
>>> What can we do? Apart from the obligatory joke of nudging him gently
>>> towards Ruby, I think calling his behavior out is a good idea. Cory
>>> Doctorow also thinks that "many trolls are perfectly nice in real life
>>> -- sometimes, just calling them on the phone and confronting them with
>>> the human being at the other end of their attacks is enough to sober
>>> them up" [3]. If that fails, banning him would show that we care about
>>> the quality of communication and technical prowess is no excuse for
>>> abusive behavior.
>>
>> As Brett pointed out, calling him on his behavior seems to meet with
>> pretty much zero success as far as modifying his future behavior goes.
>
> Aside from calling him out on his behavior and trying to change it,
> has anyone additionally made it clear to him that "if you continue
> this behavior, you will be banned from [insert as appropriate]"?  Or
> is an explicit warning not needed?

We could probably give him the explicit warning, and I suspect that
may come out of the skype call that was mentioned, but I think he has
to know by now that he's been toeing the line for probably 2 years. I
used to try to work with him, then switched to trying to talk sense
into him, then switched to defending why we do things, and then ended
up filtering his emails. I've seen others lead down the same path.

If he's actually reading what we're writing, it's never going in a
positive direction with him.

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Wed Nov  7 17:55:25 2012
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 17:55:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>

[...]
>
> All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community member
> is worse than keeping him around?

No.

Regards

Antoine.



From guido at python.org  Wed Nov  7 18:01:50 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:01:50 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:

> [...]
> >
> > All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
> member
> > is worse than keeping him around?
>
> No.
>

It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep
Python knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to be
compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical troll
is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks
social skills (English not being his first language may contribute here).
And yes, he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From chris.jerdonek at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 18:15:49 2012
From: chris.jerdonek at gmail.com (Chris Jerdonek)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 09:15:49 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOTb1wdXxX9pz1g3pH_eqZMZZT6i+fWiqJQfiYMc6MbMnrhoeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:01 AM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>> >
>> > All in all, is anyone of the opinion that losing him as a community
>> > member
>> > is worse than keeping him around?
>>
>> No.
>
>
> It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
> perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
> him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
> knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to be
> compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical troll
> is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks social
> skills (English not being his first language may contribute here). And yes,
> he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.

That's why I think an explicit warning might be good in this case (if
it hasn't already been given).  He obviously(?) cares about Python, so
the threat of banning might be what it takes to get him to give pause
before posting.  The lack of social skills can go both ways (i.e. both
writing and interpreting), in which case he might not have picked up
on any implicit threat of banning.  But I know very little about the
situation, so feel free to disregard my suggestion.

--Chris

From solipsis at pitrou.net  Wed Nov  7 18:18:41 2012
From: solipsis at pitrou.net (Antoine Pitrou)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:18:41 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2522cf0dbea0a676ece0e9b5693adb4e.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>

> It's pretty clear that he's not a net value to Python development. But
> perhaps his attempts at contributing (no matter how clumsy) have value for
> him? I imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep
> Python knowledge and interest in Minsk. I realize he's making it hard to
> be
> compassionate. But I still think what sets him apart from the typical
> troll
> is that he doesn't do it because he likes disagreement. He just lacks
> social skills (English not being his first language may contribute here).
> And yes, he doesn't seem to be learning from the feedback he gets.

Well, is he even interested in learning? He sticks to his preconceived
notions about
basically everything, including how a community should function.

The only saving grace in his behaviour, IMO, is that he doesn't try to
annoy non-core developers.

Regards

Antoine.



From barry at python.org  Wed Nov  7 18:21:53 2012
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 12:21:53 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAKmKYaD4-kSwmcgYT0t=b2EZFtG5G-bjeZWpGLjJr0xGa3AtUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<CAP1=2W6MuxM=g65KNz34ZREvO7N_XgTS0E5kCwGRHZtaWJVTXA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaD4-kSwmcgYT0t=b2EZFtG5G-bjeZWpGLjJr0xGa3AtUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20121107122153.796bbf60@resist.wooz.org>

On Nov 07, 2012, at 03:05 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote:

>If nothing else, it seems like the time has come to get the ball
>rolling on this, so we at least have a plan for how to do this kind of
>thing?

I don't think the issue has really ever come to such a head before.  Let's get
postmaster@ involved, in case we want a blanket ban on either all @python.org
addresses or mailing lists (not that such thing can't be wormed around for the
really persistent).

-Barry

From dirkjan at ochtman.nl  Wed Nov  7 18:26:51 2012
From: dirkjan at ochtman.nl (Dirkjan Ochtman)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:26:51 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
> knowledge and interest in Minsk.

I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
told me about user groups he went to.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

From dirkjan at ochtman.nl  Wed Nov  7 18:31:50 2012
From: dirkjan at ochtman.nl (Dirkjan Ochtman)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:31:50 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<20121107140834.2266F25006F@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <CAKmKYaDHRwuXY68u=KKTNWLSDi=AUWokJZMHi4fh2tuROwUDfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 3:08 PM, R. David Murray <rdmurray at bitdance.com> wrote:
> If losing him was the only consequence this would be pretty much a
> no-brainer.  However, it is likely the consequences of a general ban
> would be more widespread than that (negative publicity, etc).

Not sure I agree with that. As a participator in open source
communities, I would rather appreciate a community taking action to
protect itself from negative contributors.

This might be a good reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSFDm3UYkeE

As is this:

http://producingoss.com/

For those who aren't aware of these resources already.

Cheers,

Dirkjan

From andrew.svetlov at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 18:33:57 2012
From: andrew.svetlov at gmail.com (Andrew Svetlov)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 19:33:57 +0200
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3CFcXmLy3AR+fhAFfcEWj4XKK=9bsRhnmaNW9LPAevT1vfXw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm with Dirkjan. Personally I know several pythonistas living in Minsk.
Not so many Python Developers as Kiev has, but Minsk is not black
hole, trust me.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan at ochtman.nl> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>> imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
>> knowledge and interest in Minsk.
>
> I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
> underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
> pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
> told me about user groups he went to.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dirkjan
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers



-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov

From eliben at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 19:32:50 2012
From: eliben at gmail.com (Eli Bendersky)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 10:32:50 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAF-Rda8g5-g2rNXmxOTmMj=Su9NA_yhFjcWp90E7G4QwcsU3YA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan at ochtman.nl> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> > imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
> > knowledge and interest in Minsk.
>
> I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
> underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
> pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
> told me about user groups he went to.
>

Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
experienced Python programmer in that country.

Eli
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From andrew.svetlov at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 21:39:36 2012
From: andrew.svetlov at gmail.com (Andrew Svetlov)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 22:39:36 +0200
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAF-Rda8g5-g2rNXmxOTmMj=Su9NA_yhFjcWp90E7G4QwcsU3YA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF-Rda8g5-g2rNXmxOTmMj=Su9NA_yhFjcWp90E7G4QwcsU3YA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3CFcXmGOgWbWuxpPhBNXFYPhoq76aadWjtHyZwxbKygE0X2A@mail.gmail.com>

I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
well enough to be witness for my words.

I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
productive ones.

I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
him the current state.



On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky <eliben at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan at ochtman.nl> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
>> > imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
>> > knowledge and interest in Minsk.
>>
>> I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
>> underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
>> pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
>> told me about user groups he went to.
>
>
> Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
> That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
> experienced Python programmer in that country.
>
> Eli
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>



-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov

From andrew.svetlov at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 22:10:17 2012
From: andrew.svetlov at gmail.com (Andrew Svetlov)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 23:10:17 +0200
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAP7+vJK4Np4R8a+TNDd3B7nVVZeE6h0yirnaOOmjgp2DcFksaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF-Rda8g5-g2rNXmxOTmMj=Su9NA_yhFjcWp90E7G4QwcsU3YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3CFcXmGOgWbWuxpPhBNXFYPhoq76aadWjtHyZwxbKygE0X2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAP7+vJK4Np4R8a+TNDd3B7nVVZeE6h0yirnaOOmjgp2DcFksaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3CFcXPmU50OFKzQh-dm8K=g4nCyWwsbtXP2XHv17VLrq2DqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Let's wait a bit.

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org> wrote:
> From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov <andrew.svetlov at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
>> CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
>> well enough to be witness for my words.
>>
>> I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
>> productive ones.
>>
>> I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
>> him the current state.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky <eliben at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan at ochtman.nl>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
>> >> > knowledge and interest in Minsk.
>> >>
>> >> I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
>> >> underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
>> >> pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
>> >> told me about user groups he went to.
>> >
>> >
>> > Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
>> > That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
>> > experienced Python programmer in that country.
>> >
>> > Eli
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > python-committers mailing list
>> > python-committers at python.org
>> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew Svetlov
>> _______________________________________________
>> python-committers mailing list
>> python-committers at python.org
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>
>
>
>
> --
> --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)



-- 
Thanks,
Andrew Svetlov

From guido at python.org  Wed Nov  7 22:04:13 2012
From: guido at python.org (Guido van Rossum)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 13:04:13 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAL3CFcXmGOgWbWuxpPhBNXFYPhoq76aadWjtHyZwxbKygE0X2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<75b44c1a96f6a4f04db5c2e6afc43d11.squirrel@webmail.nerim.net>
	<CAP7+vJ+L6CYrYzyU0Gj75Ujogv1YQtkqsX5F593Lh6i42FHjwg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKmKYaB70=UkWD3-P47dCEZ2PHTZeyDZKDD8KkswmSOHW1oK5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAF-Rda8g5-g2rNXmxOTmMj=Su9NA_yhFjcWp90E7G4QwcsU3YA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL3CFcXmGOgWbWuxpPhBNXFYPhoq76aadWjtHyZwxbKygE0X2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP7+vJK4Np4R8a+TNDd3B7nVVZeE6h0yirnaOOmjgp2DcFksaQ@mail.gmail.com>

>From his response to me he seems to be unaware that there is a problem...


On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 12:39 PM, Andrew Svetlov <andrew.svetlov at gmail.com>wrote:

> I've sent email to Anatoly in Russian describing current situation.
> CC'ed Eli Bendersky and ?ukasz Langa as humans who understand Russian
> well enough to be witness for my words.
>
> I've call Anatoly to stop disruptive activities and concentrate on
> productive ones.
>
> I hope I has been benevolent enough as well as strong enough to send
> him the current state.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Eli Bendersky <eliben at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Dirkjan Ochtman <dirkjan at ochtman.nl>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Guido van Rossum <guido at python.org>
> wrote:
> >> > imagine it must be pretty lonely being the only geek with deep Python
> >> > knowledge and interest in Minsk.
> >>
> >> I don't want to distract from your point, but I'm not sure the
> >> underlying assumption is warranted here. I happen to have met a few
> >> pretty good Python programmers from the Baltic states, one of whom
> >> told me about user groups he went to.
> >
> >
> > Dirkjan, Belarus is not a Baltic state ;-)
> > That said, I agree with Andrew that Anatoly is probably not the only
> > experienced Python programmer in that country.
> >
> > Eli
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > python-committers mailing list
> > python-committers at python.org
> > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Andrew Svetlov
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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From martin at v.loewis.de  Wed Nov  7 23:09:11 2012
From: martin at v.loewis.de (martin at v.loewis.de)
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:09:11 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <509A6990.5040706@egenix.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<509A4EB1.2070506@v.loewis.de>
	<08E61C8D-F36E-4AB0-8BE0-E3C57746D030@langa.pl>
	<509A6990.5040706@egenix.com>
Message-ID: <20121107230911.Horde.nKgIDtjz9kRQmtwHz8S0FbA@webmail.df.eu>


Zitat von "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal at egenix.com>:

> Cory's point is a good one and, at least in my experience, often works
> wonders.
>
> Call him on the phone or invite him to a conference. He's based
> in Minsk, Belarus, AFAIK.

Guido tried to arrange a peace treaty between him and me at some pycon,
and I really tried for a few days. Eventually, I gave up. Unlike Brett,
I actually shouted.

He cites his lack of mastery of English as his main problem, but I do
think there is much more.

So I think that path has already been investigated sufficiently.

Regards,
Martin



From victor.stinner at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 00:49:36 2012
From: victor.stinner at gmail.com (Victor Stinner)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 00:49:36 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
Message-ID: <CAMpsgwY1eXT1jpDV6+m7aeY8DtutjLVS-qh5cekesYf2XKpbiQ@mail.gmail.com>

> How do you perceive his contributions in general?

He is really annoying. He is flooding python-ideas and python-dev lists
with emails without trying to understand answers. He didn't understand that
the Python community is not working for him.

IMO he has a negative effect on the Python community. When he asks a
question, he doesn't try to understand how Python is designed and let
people think that the Python design just sucks (which is wrong, Python
design is great! Python is the best language!).

I'm skipping most Anatoly's messages for all these reasons.

Victor
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From mrjbq7 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 01:21:22 2012
From: mrjbq7 at gmail.com (John Benediktsson)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 16:21:22 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAMpsgwY1eXT1jpDV6+m7aeY8DtutjLVS-qh5cekesYf2XKpbiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<CAMpsgwY1eXT1jpDV6+m7aeY8DtutjLVS-qh5cekesYf2XKpbiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKkuUiZjcLk+qae+t1FARCiW14HC2bT=e6pNd6PhAf8eUnjdSg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> IMO he has a negative effect on the Python community. When he asks a
> question, he doesn't try to understand how Python is designed and let
> people think that the Python design just sucks (which is wrong, Python
> design is great! Python is the best language!).
>

Out of curiousity, I googled Anatoly and python-ideas and this thread[1]
seems a useful example.  His suggestions seem intended to help, he provided
some code examples, and made only a handful of posts in support of his idea
(receiving a few negative responses).  At times his English was rough, but
without going into the merits of his ideas - would an approach where you
encourage him to publish his ideas on PyPI or Github give him an outlet for
his energy?

It seems to me his philosophy clashes with that of python-dev, perhaps his
batteries are a different size than those included in Python, but I'd like
to see this community be inclusive rather than exclusive, even at the
expense of a few added mail filters by the core team.

My-two-cents'ly,

John.

[1] http://code.activestate.com/lists/python-ideas/15529/
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From brian at python.org  Thu Nov  8 01:52:17 2012
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 18:52:17 -0600
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAKkuUiZjcLk+qae+t1FARCiW14HC2bT=e6pNd6PhAf8eUnjdSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<CAMpsgwY1eXT1jpDV6+m7aeY8DtutjLVS-qh5cekesYf2XKpbiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKkuUiZjcLk+qae+t1FARCiW14HC2bT=e6pNd6PhAf8eUnjdSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwriDO=HESOQPGgZUBM=SH1qVQvz2OjQxrRWaEsEhAPHug@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 7, 2012 at 6:21 PM, John Benediktsson <mrjbq7 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> IMO he has a negative effect on the Python community. When he asks a
>> question, he doesn't try to understand how Python is designed and let people
>> think that the Python design just sucks (which is wrong, Python design is
>> great! Python is the best language!).
>
>
> Out of curiousity, I googled Anatoly and python-ideas and this thread[1]
> seems a useful example.  His suggestions seem intended to help, he provided
> some code examples, and made only a handful of posts in support of his idea
> (receiving a few negative responses).  At times his English was rough, but
> without going into the merits of his ideas - would an approach where you
> encourage him to publish his ideas on PyPI or Github give him an outlet for
> his energy?

He's actually fairly active in Python-related open source as far as
I've seen. I've come across his name as a contributor to several
projects, so I don't think we need to offer him any outlets.

> It seems to me his philosophy clashes with that of python-dev, perhaps his
> batteries are a different size than those included in Python, but I'd like
> to see this community be inclusive rather than exclusive, even at the
> expense of a few added mail filters by the core team.

It would be great to include him or leave him included, but I have the
feeling that we're beyond this. I don't buy it that the problem is his
English knowledge or that he doesn't know that there was a problem.
Sure, he trips up on some English language skills, but those of us who
have talked back to him have done so in what are pretty clear negative
tones. He has reacted to said negativity with snark, so he gets it.

His philosophy, back when I still read his emails, was that he is
correct and to think otherwise is foolish (see his repeated attempts
to get us to restructure the entire development process for him). We
can ban him, we can keep him - whatever. My email filters will remain.

From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 03:29:32 2012
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 12:29:32 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Anatoly Techtonik's contribution
In-Reply-To: <CAKkuUiZjcLk+qae+t1FARCiW14HC2bT=e6pNd6PhAf8eUnjdSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <F99F24B4-5F76-4338-907D-FFDDBB94222E@langa.pl>
	<CAMpsgwY1eXT1jpDV6+m7aeY8DtutjLVS-qh5cekesYf2XKpbiQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAKkuUiZjcLk+qae+t1FARCiW14HC2bT=e6pNd6PhAf8eUnjdSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADiSq7cSUg3kd5irVkhQv44E5m-P5mfBdngjUSCy-NTR4-xk6w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 10:21 AM, John Benediktsson <mrjbq7 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Out of curiousity, I googled Anatoly and python-ideas and this thread[1]
> seems a useful example.  His suggestions seem intended to help, he provided
> some code examples, and made only a handful of posts in support of his idea
> (receiving a few negative responses).

The problem isn't that he's always wrong, the problem is that the
signal to noise ratio is awful and attempting to filter the good ideas
from the bad wastes a whole lot of time for a whole lot of people. For
more typical illustrations of our past interactions with him, look up
his attempts to get us to migrate from mailing lists to Google Wave
(what a great idea that would have been), his comments on MoinMoin as
a wiki technology, his comments on the Roundup installation, and his
comments on the PyPI packaging ecosystem.

The entire problem is summed up in the first two paragraphs of this
post: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2012-June/015304.html
(my quoted comment and Anatoly's reply). His proudly declared attitude
of "I can't be assed doing any research into what's already happening
in this area or why things are the way they are, and I won't listen
when anyone tries to inform me of those things, so I'm going to make
everyone waste their time reading my uninformed BS opinions" does not
a net-positive community member make. Yes, that was one of the threads
that finally made me pull the trigger on routing his emails to
/dev/null

It stands in stark contrast to the approach of someone like Daniel
Holth, who saw some similar problems with PyPI, researched the current
state of the art within the community, and then went ahead and created
something (the wheel archive format) that's going to go a long way
towards addressing many of them.

There comes a time when even an inclusive community has to ask itself
"Is trying to include *this particular* person alienating current or
potential community members that refuse to spend their time in an
environment that tolerates these kinds of antics?".

Regards,
Nick.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia