From brian at python.org  Fri Dec  4 10:55:00 2015
From: brian at python.org (Brian Curtin)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:55:00 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] MSDN Subscription Expired
In-Reply-To: <565B5FD1.6020305@stoneleaf.us>
References: <563E0C2D.7050104@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAD+XWwp-9yo4m2hcjLzP-ZUjNryspYkaMjm6wPnTMH_c96jS6A@mail.gmail.com>
 <565B5FD1.6020305@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAD+XWwqqRHz_kw_TKXN8PDCyn-f5RuZwfH1fb3pJKV7-L2zedQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'll double check - occasionally something gets tripped up with these.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 11/07/2015 06:57 AM, Brian Curtin wrote:
>
>> All I need is the email associated with the account and your
>> Subscriber ID.
>
> I haven't heard anything yet, did I miss something?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

From jcea at jcea.es  Sun Dec  6 20:05:29 2015
From: jcea at jcea.es (Jesus Cea)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 02:05:29 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Committer missing :)
Message-ID: <5664DB59.3090003@jcea.es>

I was trying to push a patch but it seems I am not a committer anymore.
My name vanished of <https://hg.python.org/committers.txt> and the tracker.

I guess I had a DSA key in hg.python.org and those are not valid
anymore, but looks like I am not a documented committer anymore in order
to send a new 2048 bits RSA key.

I don't know if this is a mistake or a decision. Just let me know.

-- 
Jes?s Cea Avi?n                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
jcea at jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
jabber / xmpp:jcea at jabber.org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
"Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
"My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
"El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz

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From benjamin at python.org  Sun Dec  6 20:09:25 2015
From: benjamin at python.org (Benjamin Peterson)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 17:09:25 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Committer missing :)
In-Reply-To: <5664DB59.3090003@jcea.es>
References: <5664DB59.3090003@jcea.es>
Message-ID: <1449450565.2981810.459800353.1E69F35B@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Indeed, if you have no keys around, the (automatically generated)
committers.txt file will not list you.


On Sun, Dec 6, 2015, at 17:05, Jesus Cea wrote:
> I was trying to push a patch but it seems I am not a committer anymore.
> My name vanished of <https://hg.python.org/committers.txt> and the
> tracker.
> 
> I guess I had a DSA key in hg.python.org and those are not valid
> anymore, but looks like I am not a documented committer anymore in order
> to send a new 2048 bits RSA key.
> 
> I don't know if this is a mistake or a decision. Just let me know.
> 
> -- 
> Jes?s Cea Avi?n                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
> jcea at jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
> Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
> jabber / xmpp:jcea at jabber.org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
> "Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
> "My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
> "El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz
> 
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> Email had 1 attachment:
> + signature.asc
>   1k (application/pgp-signature)

From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Sun Dec  6 22:25:51 2015
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 22:25:51 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Committer missing :)
In-Reply-To: <1449450565.2981810.459800353.1E69F35B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <5664DB59.3090003@jcea.es>
 <1449450565.2981810.459800353.1E69F35B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20151207032551.A980FB200A4@webabinitio.net>

On the other hand, docs.python.org/devguide/developers.html still will
(and does).

On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 17:09:25 -0800, Benjamin Peterson <benjamin at python.org> wrote:
> Indeed, if you have no keys around, the (automatically generated)
> committers.txt file will not list you.
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015, at 17:05, Jesus Cea wrote:
> > I was trying to push a patch but it seems I am not a committer anymore.
> > My name vanished of <https://hg.python.org/committers.txt> and the
> > tracker.
> > 
> > I guess I had a DSA key in hg.python.org and those are not valid
> > anymore, but looks like I am not a documented committer anymore in order
> > to send a new 2048 bits RSA key.
> > 
> > I don't know if this is a mistake or a decision. Just let me know.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jes??s Cea Avi??n                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
> > jcea at jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
> > Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
> > jabber / xmpp:jcea at jabber.org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
> > "Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
> > "My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
> > "El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > python-committers mailing list
> > python-committers at python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers
> > Email had 1 attachment:
> > + signature.asc
> >   1k (application/pgp-signature)
> _______________________________________________
> python-committers mailing list
> python-committers at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-committers

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Sun Dec  6 23:30:41 2015
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 20:30:41 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Committer missing :)
In-Reply-To: <20151207032551.A980FB200A4@webabinitio.net>
References: <5664DB59.3090003@jcea.es>
 <1449450565.2981810.459800353.1E69F35B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20151207032551.A980FB200A4@webabinitio.net>
Message-ID: <56650B71.4040207@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/06/2015 07:25 PM, R. David Murray wrote:
 > On Sun, 06 Dec 2015 17:09:25 -0800, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
 >> On Sun, Dec 6, 2015, at 17:05, Jesus Cea wrote:

 >>> I guess I had a DSA key in hg.python.org and those are not valid
 >>> anymore, but looks like I am not a documented committer anymore in
 >>> order to send a new 2048 bits RSA key.

 >> Indeed, if you have no keys around, the (automatically generated)
 >> committers.txt file will not list you.

 > On the other hand, docs.python.org/devguide/developers.html still will
 > (and does).

According to

 
https://docs.python.org/devguide/faq.html#how-do-i-generate-an-ssh-2-public-key

the place to send keys is

   hgaccounts at python.org

--
~Ethan~

From larry at hastings.org  Mon Dec  7 00:06:46 2015
From: larry at hastings.org (Larry Hastings)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 21:06:46 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] [RELEASED] Python 3.5.1 and 3.4.4rc1 are now
 available
Message-ID: <566513E6.9050108@hastings.org>


On behalf of the Python development community and the Python 3.4 and 3.5 
release teams, I'm pleased to announce the simultaneous availability of 
Python 3.5.1 and Python 3.4.4rc1.   As point releases, both have many 
incremental improvements over their predecessor releases.


You can find Python 3.5.1 here:

    https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-351/

And you can find Python 3.4.4rc1 here:

    https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-344rc1/


Python 2.7.11 shipped today too, so it's a Python release-day hat trick!


Happy computing,


//arry/
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From jcea at jcea.es  Fri Dec 11 16:50:12 2015
From: jcea at jcea.es (Jesus Cea)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:50:12 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] I am nos selectable in the bugtracker
Message-ID: <566B4514.3070308@jcea.es>

After sending my new SSH key I have recovered "push" abilities in the
mercurial repository, but it looks like I am not present in the bug
tracker "assigned to" field.

Thanks for your time.

-- 
Jes?s Cea Avi?n                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
jcea at jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
jabber / xmpp:jcea at jabber.org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
"Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
"My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
"El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz

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From zachary.ware+pydev at gmail.com  Fri Dec 11 17:01:39 2015
From: zachary.ware+pydev at gmail.com (Zachary Ware)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:01:39 -0600
Subject: [python-committers] I am nos selectable in the bugtracker
In-Reply-To: <566B4514.3070308@jcea.es>
References: <566B4514.3070308@jcea.es>
Message-ID: <CAKJDb-PCcj0gHkLsosWYyJ+QRb8RD8O+FPakRsabB+CrCpj1UQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 3:50 PM, Jesus Cea <jcea at jcea.es> wrote:
> After sending my new SSH key I have recovered "push" abilities in the
> mercurial repository, but it looks like I am not present in the bug
> tracker "assigned to" field.

I see you in 'assigned to', as 'jcea'.  Your own username is always at
the very top of the list.

-- 
Zach

From rdmurray at bitdance.com  Fri Dec 11 17:03:33 2015
From: rdmurray at bitdance.com (R. David Murray)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:03:33 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] I am nos selectable in the bugtracker
In-Reply-To: <566B4514.3070308@jcea.es>
References: <566B4514.3070308@jcea.es>
Message-ID: <20151211220334.A34E22510EB@webabinitio.net>

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:50:12 +0100, Jesus Cea <jcea at jcea.es> wrote:
> After sending my new SSH key I have recovered "push" abilities in the
> mercurial repository, but it looks like I am not present in the bug
> tracker "assigned to" field.

I see jcea there.

--David

From brett at python.org  Sat Dec 12 18:32:35 2015
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:32:35 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if we
 used GitHub?
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Over at core-workflow@ we are discussing details of the GitHub and GitLab
proposals and one of the worries the GitLab supporters have brought up is
that some core developers could flat-out stop contributing if we moved to
GitHub. Now I have major doubts that's true as no one has told me that is
the case yet after all the time that this workflow change has been
discussed, but I would not be doing my due diligence if I didn't check to
make sure I truly didn't need to consider this in my final decision.

So, if you would actually *stop* contributing to Python's development if we
switched to GitHub, please let me know (and this is obviously addressed to
us core developers and not external contributors since they can always
submit old-style patches through the issue tracker). This is not asking
about preference or you would only begrudgingly use GitHub since some
people will begrudgingly do whatever decision I reach, so please don't
reply about begrudging use so I can keep the signal:noise ratio down; only
reply with  "I will quit Python over GitHub" emails.

You can email me privately if you want, but let me know if you care if I
share this with very select people like Guido. Also realize that anyone who
says they will walk away will be held to their word; if we still choose to
switch to GitHub I will expect you to no longer contribute to Python and
will personally hold you to your word (which also makes private emails a
little moot, but I can understand if you would rather fade away than make a
public political statement). I'm saying this not to be threaten people into
not giving me an answer but because I want to get the point across that
this is a very serious question, so I don't want any wavering on the answer.

Please let me know by Wednesday, Dec 16 if you would walk away. I know it's
not a ton of time but I said I expect silence so I don't want to be sitting
around to find out the results of this question.
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From stefan at bytereef.org  Sun Dec 13 12:55:00 2015
From: stefan at bytereef.org (s.krah)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:55:00 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1519c7b3ab6.e435baa3124677.5675721965312467708@bytereef.org>



Brett Cannon &lt;brett at python.org&gt; wrote:
&gt; You can email me privately if you want, but let me know if you care if I share this with
&gt; very select people like Guido. Also realize that anyone who says they will walk away will
&gt; be held to their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will expect you to no longer
&gt; contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your word (which also makes private
&gt; emails a little moot, but I can understand if you would rather fade away than make a public
&gt; political statement). I'm saying this not to be threaten people into not giving me an answer
&gt; but because I want to get the point across that this is a very serious question, so I don't
&gt; want any wavering on the answer.



This doesn't concern me, since I've already said on core-workflow that I'll stay
regardless of the decision.   Still, this sounds more like an ultimatum than a survey. ;)

Wavering is completely natural on such matters, for example the ctypes maintainer
mentioned in his goodbye message (shortly after the svn -&gt; hg transition) that he
hadn't even looked at mercurial yet.  Which indicates to me that churn in the
workflow can be a contributing factor in decisions like that.


More than that, changing one's opinion is rather natural, too.  As a real world
example, I intensely disliked f-strings when they were discussed initially.  I
prudently stayed out of the discussion altogether, and when I saw Eric's
implementation I was instantly sold.  That's a complete reversal from -1 to +1.


I can't imagine that a statistician would accept any results derived from an
inquiry worded like that.


Stefan Krah



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From brett at python.org  Sun Dec 13 14:28:04 2015
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:28:04 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <1519c7b3ab6.e435baa3124677.5675721965312467708@bytereef.org>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1519c7b3ab6.e435baa3124677.5675721965312467708@bytereef.org>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W6YeqovjRy5aTzZ7d2UdN+NvvU2FnuZt2nosqJ_psvaLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 13 Dec 2015 at 09:55 s.krah <stefan at bytereef.org> wrote:

>
> *Brett Cannon <brett at python.org <brett at python.org>>* wrote:
> > You can email me privately if you want, but let me know if you care if I
> share this with
> > very select people like Guido. Also realize that anyone who says they
> will walk away will
> > be held to their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will
> expect you to no longer
> > contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your word (which
> also makes private
> > emails a little moot, but I can understand if you would rather fade away
> than make a public
> > political statement). I'm saying this not to be threaten people into not
> giving me an answer
> > but because I want to get the point across that this is a very serious
> question, so I don't
> > want any wavering on the answer.
>
> This doesn't concern me, since I've already said on core-workflow that
> I'll stay
> regardless of the decision.   Still, this sounds more like an ultimatum
> than a survey. ;)
>

It's about absolutes and not maybes for me on this question.


>
> Wavering is completely natural on such matters, for example the ctypes
> maintainer
> mentioned in his goodbye message (shortly after the svn -> hg transition)
> that he
> hadn't even looked at mercurial yet.  Which indicates to me that churn in
> the
> workflow can be a contributing factor in decisions like that.
>

Sure, and I have already received an email from someone saying that a
change to git might really hurt their ability to ramp up and contribute at
their admittedly small amount that they currently do (I also pointed out
hg-git exists so it won't be quite a transition as the svn -> hg one).


>
>
> More than that, changing one's opinion is rather natural, too.  As a real
> world
> example, I intensely disliked f-strings when they were discussed
> initially.  I
> prudently stayed out of the discussion altogether, and when I saw Eric's
> implementation I was instantly sold.  That's a complete reversal from -1
> to +1.
>

And that's fine and I'm not saying some people won't come to dislike
whatever decision I make (I actually expect it). But the whole point with
this is to find out if anyone is fundamentally against GitHub at a moral
level. You can say you don't like GitHub's workflow style, their colours,
whatever, and you can possibly get over it. But if you have moral issues
 with GitHub because it's closed source or commercial and refuse to use it
on that basis then the chances of you changing your mind on that is
probably fairly slim.


>
> I can't imagine that a statistician would accept any results derived from
> an
> inquiry worded like that.
>

My inquiry is to see if anyone has such reservations about GitHub that
there is no chance they will ever use it because of fundamentally held
beliefs. The email is strongly worded because I only care about people with
strong feelings. The email was purposefully worded to measure a specific
sentiment.
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From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 15 11:58:42 2015
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:58:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>

Brett Cannon <brett <at> python.org> writes:

> Over at core-workflow we are discussing details of the GitHub and GitLab
> proposals

I don't have any strong feelings against GitHub, and I understand you want
to bring out strong feelings, but

> Also realize that anyone who says they will walk away will be held to
> their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will expect you to
> no longer contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your word

seems a little strong. Even principled people can change their minds about
things, can't they? To me, this does come across like an ultimatum (Stefan's
word) or a threat (your word) - as if you want to somehow punish people who
make the "wrong" decision now, even if they relent later (which might be for
perfectly valid reasons). What's the justification for this bit of it? I
would have thought it would be enough for people to say if they are going to
walk away - if they later on change their minds, eat humble pie (which would
be evident to those who care) and want to come back, why would you want to
exclude contributors who have already passed a certain commitment/competence
bar to become Python committers? One of the reasons touted for adopting
GitHub is to increase the number of contributors and contributions, not to
decrease them, surely.

Perhaps I've just misunderstood the tone in your post. I hope that's so.

Regards,

Vinay Sajip


From brett at python.org  Tue Dec 15 12:11:50 2015
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:11:50 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5zAeKOdMrqnet_rnfDrpWhKLYRgwZ2of4k=8ev1mHrMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 at 08:58 Vinay Sajip <vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Brett Cannon <brett <at> python.org> writes:
>
> > Over at core-workflow we are discussing details of the GitHub and GitLab
> > proposals
>
> I don't have any strong feelings against GitHub, and I understand you want
> to bring out strong feelings, but
>
> > Also realize that anyone who says they will walk away will be held to
> > their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will expect you to
> > no longer contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your word
>
> seems a little strong. Even principled people can change their minds about
> things, can't they?


Of course they can.


> To me, this does come across like an ultimatum (Stefan's
> word) or a threat (your word) - as if you want to somehow punish people who
> make the "wrong" decision now, even if they relent later (which might be
> for
> perfectly valid reasons). What's the justification for this bit of it?



> I
> would have thought it would be enough for people to say if they are going
> to
> walk away - if they later on change their minds, eat humble pie (which
> would
> be evident to those who care) and want to come back, why would you want to
> exclude contributors who have already passed a certain
> commitment/competence
> bar to become Python committers? One of the reasons touted for adopting
> GitHub is to increase the number of contributors and contributions, not to
> decrease them, surely.
>
> Perhaps I've just misunderstood the tone in your post. I hope that's so.
>

It's meant to convey that I want people to seriously think about telling me
that GitHub would cause them to walk away. I'm not interested in knee jerk
reactions here because telling me that GitHub will walk away is a very
serious statement that potentially impacts us all.

And I didn't say "leave and never come back", I simply said "plan to leave
because you said you would". If I announce on January 1 we are going with
GitHub I don't really expect your view to change in two weeks, so be
prepared to stick to your word. Now if after walking away and some months
have passed you have a change of heart then of course you can admit you
have changed your mind and come back. They key point here -- and why I
didn't do an anonymous survey -- is that I need the weight of this to be
properly communicated; if there were a group of core developers who had
ideological issues with GitHub to the point of leaving Python development
then I need to know that to know if that minority is enough to warrant
ignoring GitHub for all of us.

I'm sorry if this came off as a threat that I'm holding over people to
scare them or it comes off as me trying to be a bully to people. I'm simply
trying to make sure I get answers to this question which are truly sincere
and the importance of the answer is properly communicated.
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From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 15 14:40:56 2015
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:56 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/12/2015 03:32 PM, Brett Cannon wrote:

 > Over at core-workflow@ we are discussing details of the GitHub and
 > GitLab proposals and one of the worries the GitLab supporters have
 > brought up is that some core developers could flat-out stop
 > contributing if we moved to GitHub. Now I have major doubts that's
 > true as no one has told me that is the case yet after all the time
 > that this workflow change has been discussed, but I would not be
 > doing my due diligence if I didn't check to make sure I truly didn't
 > need to consider this in my final decision.
 >
 > So, if you would actually *stop* contributing to Python's development
 > if we switched to GitHub, please let me know.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/15/julie-ann-horvath-describes-sexism-and-intimidation-behind-her-github-exit/

http://www.theverge.com/2014/3/19/5526574/github-sexism-scandal-julie-ann-horvath

http://www.dailydot.com/technology/julie-ann-horvath-quits-github-sexism-harassment/

http://readwrite.com/2014/04/24/github-women-reputation-julie-ann-horvath

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/github-founder-resigns-after-investigation/?_r=0

I love Python (as I'm sure all core developers do), and I am not over 
burdened with a sense of my own importance though I do think my 
contributions have made Python better (PEP 409, PEP 435, PEP 461). 
However, I cannot and will not be associated with a project that 
supports GitHub until such time as GitHub becomes a decent place for 
women to work.

Those links are a year and half old, so if there is current evidence to 
the contrary I'm interested in seeing it.

If there is not, then it behooves us to act according to our own words 
claiming support for women and not use GitHUb, perhaps even blogging 
about our decision and its reasons to apply some pressure to them to 
affect a change.

I sincerely hope I am not alone in these feelings.

--
~Ethan~

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 15 15:07:02 2015
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:07:02 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <567072E6.9020700@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/15/2015 11:40 AM, Ethan Furman wrote:

 > I cannot and will not be associated with a project that
 > supports GitHub [...]

Lest anyone accuse me of hypocrisy because I have a GitHub account, it 
is required for a class I am taking, and will be deleted (or at least go 
unused) once that class is finished.

My repos are on BitBucket.

--
~Ethan~

From senthil at uthcode.com  Tue Dec 15 15:41:23 2015
From: senthil at uthcode.com (Senthil Kumaran)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:41:23 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Ethan,

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan at stoneleaf.us> wrote:

> Those links are a year and half old, so if there is current evidence to
> the contrary I'm interested in seeing it.
>

These are the follow-up articles which state that Github Inc has taken some
actions to correct the "mistakes" they might have done.

https://github.com/blog/1826-follow-up-to-the-investigation-results
https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-conduct


> If there is not, then it behooves us to act according to our own words
> claiming support for women and not use GitHUb, perhaps even blogging about
> our decision and its reasons to apply some pressure to them to affect a
> change.
>
> I sincerely hope I am not alone in these feelings.
>

As you noted, they are more than a year old and re-churning this may not be
in our best interest IMHO. It is like ignoring any action the company might
have done to correct mistakes (the above blog links).

I am +1 on moving development to Github because of technical reasons. If we
have doubts on the culture of the company, it may be a good idea to talk
directly to their public relations department or an informal chat with
women who currently work at Github and get a firsthand view of the place
and not be biased with reports in media, especially the old ones.

Thanks,
Senthil
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From nas-python at arctrix.com  Tue Dec 15 15:49:23 2015
From: nas-python at arctrix.com (Neil Schemenauer)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:49:23 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20151215204923.GA3787@python.ca>

On 2015-12-15, Vinay Sajip wrote:
> Brett Cannon <brett <at> python.org> writes:
> > Also realize that anyone who says they will walk away will be held to
> > their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will expect you to
> > no longer contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your word
> 
> seems a little strong. Even principled people can change their minds about
> things, can't they? To me, this does come across like an ultimatum (Stefan's
> word) or a threat (your word)

I agree this is too strong.  If people don't want to use GitHub,
they can clone from a different repos, maybe PSF can even provide
one.  Patches can be sent using the 'git am' command.  I don't see
why not using GitHub means you can't contribute to Python.  We would
be rejecting valuable contributions for no good reason.

You could say something like "you will not get commit access through
GitHub".  I.e. you will have to get someone else to commit or pull
your changes.

Regards,

  Neil

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 15 16:00:04 2015
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:00:04 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56707F54.1090806@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/15/2015 12:41 PM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:

 > These are the follow-up articles which state that Github Inc has
 > taken some actions to correct the "mistakes" they might have done.
 >
 > https://github.com/blog/1826-follow-up-to-the-investigation-results
 > https://github.com/blog/2039-adopting-the-open-code-of-conduct

Thank you.  It would seem they are at least trying, which is heartening.

I withdraw my objections.

--
~Ethan~

From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 15 15:59:38 2015
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:59:38 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151215155938.13d89639@limelight.wooz.org>

On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:

>If we have doubts on the culture of the company, it may be a good idea to
>talk directly to their public relations department or an informal chat with
>women who currently work at Github and get a firsthand view of the place and
>not be biased with reports in media, especially the old ones.

Jono Bacon, a former colleague of mine and former Ubuntu Community Manager is
now Director of Community at GitHub.  I'd be happy to reach out to him with
any of our concerns in this regard.

Cheers,
-Barry

From ethan at stoneleaf.us  Tue Dec 15 16:06:25 2015
From: ethan at stoneleaf.us (Ethan Furman)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:06:25 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <20151215155938.13d89639@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151215155938.13d89639@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <567080D1.6030504@stoneleaf.us>

On 12/15/2015 12:59 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Senthil Kumaran wrote:
>
>> If we have doubts on the culture of the company, it may be a good idea to
>> talk directly to their public relations department or an informal chat with
>> women who currently work at Github and get a firsthand view of the place and
>> not be biased with reports in media, especially the old ones.
>
> Jono Bacon, a former colleague of mine and former Ubuntu Community Manager is
> now Director of Community at GitHub.  I'd be happy to reach out to him with
> any of our concerns in this regard.

I don't know what other concerns there might be, but I think it would be 
good to collect them and ask Jono about them.  If past issues have 
changed for the better then the more who know the better; likewise, if 
there are still issues we should be cognizant of them.

--
~Ethan~


From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 15 16:09:10 2015
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:09:10 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <567080D1.6030504@stoneleaf.us>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56706CC8.1070101@stoneleaf.us>
 <CAPOVWOTk2pev_zhVWhq37MRLQMLm5PgD-MrtLS8ToQLS-xYLsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20151215155938.13d89639@limelight.wooz.org>
 <567080D1.6030504@stoneleaf.us>
Message-ID: <20151215160910.4d737e48@limelight.wooz.org>

On Dec 15, 2015, at 01:06 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:

>I don't know what other concerns there might be, but I think it would be good
>to collect them and ask Jono about them.  If past issues have changed for the
>better then the more who know the better; likewise, if there are still issues
>we should be cognizant of them.

If anybody has specific questions they'd like Jono to answer, send them to me
off-list in the next few days.  I'll compile them and forward them on to
Jono.  I'll repeat the offer on the workflow mailing list.

Cheers,
-Barry

From brett at python.org  Tue Dec 15 16:11:26 2015
From: brett at python.org (Brett Cannon)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:11:26 +0000
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <20151215204923.GA3787@python.ca>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org> <20151215204923.GA3787@python.ca>
Message-ID: <CAP1=2W5VyXNVL7wT922=4SiVcY55LM+3OxMqfkh8N7kVtggOpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 15 Dec 2015 at 12:49 Neil Schemenauer <nas-python at arctrix.com>
wrote:

> On 2015-12-15, Vinay Sajip wrote:
> > Brett Cannon <brett <at> python.org> writes:
> > > Also realize that anyone who says they will walk away will be held to
> > > their word; if we still choose to switch to GitHub I will expect you to
> > > no longer contribute to Python and will personally hold you to your
> word
> >
> > seems a little strong. Even principled people can change their minds
> about
> > things, can't they? To me, this does come across like an ultimatum
> (Stefan's
> > word) or a threat (your word)
>
> I agree this is too strong.  If people don't want to use GitHub,
> they can clone from a different repos, maybe PSF can even provide
> one.  Patches can be sent using the 'git am' command.  I don't see
> why not using GitHub means you can't contribute to Python.  We would
> be rejecting valuable contributions for no good reason.


> You could say something like "you will not get commit access through
> GitHub".  I.e. you will have to get someone else to commit or pull
> your changes.
>

That's exactly what I meant; I'm not going to push to ban someone from
uploading a patch to bugs.python.org. This is entirely about commit/push
privileges and who would relinquish them if we switched to GitHub (and
simply expecting them to follow through on their relinquishment if they
said they would).
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From jcea at jcea.es  Tue Dec 15 16:51:07 2015
From: jcea at jcea.es (Jesus Cea)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:51:07 +0100
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <CAP1=2W5zAeKOdMrqnet_rnfDrpWhKLYRgwZ2of4k=8ev1mHrMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
 <CAP1=2W5zAeKOdMrqnet_rnfDrpWhKLYRgwZ2of4k=8ev1mHrMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56708B4B.7080506@jcea.es>

On 15/12/15 18:11, Brett Cannon wrote:

> I'm sorry if this came off as a threat that I'm holding over people to
> scare them or it comes off as me trying to be a bully to people. I'm
> simply trying to make sure I get answers to this question which are
> truly sincere and the importance of the answer is properly communicated.

I don't like github. Centralization is a threat and I try to do as much
as I can to counterbalance it. That Python developers helps github to
get bigger even is something to be sad about.

I love Mercurial. I think that GIT is inconsistent and dangerous, and
the only reason for its success is networking effect and services like
github. I must say that I was proud of Python committers when the
decision to migrate to Mercurial was done.

I have quite strong opinions about all this.

That said, I value Python a lot and my status as a core developer, even
if my contributions are sparse. I want to help to improve the language
and I enjoy to be part of the process.

Migrating to github, if it happens, WILL NOT stop my contributions at
all, but for me is a lost battle against centralization, independence,
and what Internet should be. Helping to grow a private business where WE
would be the product, with a future plan/roadmap we don't have a word
about and just to use a closed source product. Interestingly, git was
created as a reaction to bitkeeper closed product...
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29#History>.

I realize that my weight as a very low activity committer is minimal and
I don't have an alternative proposal. Just voicing my disappointment.

PS: Given a migration to a closed service, I would rather prefer to
migrate to bitbucket, even using GIT (puf!), just to help to keep alive
a healthy competition to GitHUB.

-- 
Jes?s Cea Avi?n                         _/_/      _/_/_/        _/_/_/
jcea at jcea.es - http://www.jcea.es/     _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
Twitter: @jcea                        _/_/    _/_/          _/_/_/_/_/
jabber / xmpp:jcea at jabber.org  _/_/  _/_/    _/_/          _/_/  _/_/
"Things are not so easy"      _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/    _/_/  _/_/
"My name is Dump, Core Dump"   _/_/_/        _/_/_/      _/_/  _/_/
"El amor es poner tu felicidad en la felicidad de otro" - Leibniz

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From barry at python.org  Tue Dec 15 17:00:53 2015
From: barry at python.org (Barry Warsaw)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:00:53 -0500
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <56708B4B.7080506@jcea.es>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
 <CAP1=2W5zAeKOdMrqnet_rnfDrpWhKLYRgwZ2of4k=8ev1mHrMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56708B4B.7080506@jcea.es>
Message-ID: <20151215170053.192c88e6@limelight.wooz.org>

On Dec 15, 2015, at 10:51 PM, Jesus Cea wrote:

>I realize that my weight as a very low activity committer is minimal and
>I don't have an alternative proposal.

An alternative which meets many of your criteria is the GitLab proposal in PEP
507.

Cheers,
-Barry
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From ncoghlan at gmail.com  Tue Dec 15 22:13:09 2015
From: ncoghlan at gmail.com (Nick Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:13:09 +1000
Subject: [python-committers] Would anyone STOP contributing to Python if
 we used GitHub?
In-Reply-To: <20151215170053.192c88e6@limelight.wooz.org>
References: <CAP1=2W5zN+m8OXG8EKWOiW-2dgnjwyCi7bsyxQQU4L_6F+9XfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <loom.20151215T174851-679@post.gmane.org>
 <CAP1=2W5zAeKOdMrqnet_rnfDrpWhKLYRgwZ2of4k=8ev1mHrMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <56708B4B.7080506@jcea.es>
 <20151215170053.192c88e6@limelight.wooz.org>
Message-ID: <CADiSq7dEPnFcpHY6E6VOAT9Th5qiGF+5UEiBe1iYPrCkymk93w@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 December 2015 at 08:00, Barry Warsaw <barry at python.org> wrote:
> On Dec 15, 2015, at 10:51 PM, Jesus Cea wrote:
>
>>I realize that my weight as a very low activity committer is minimal and
>>I don't have an alternative proposal.
>
> An alternative which meets many of your criteria is the GitLab proposal in PEP
> 507.

(TL;DR of below: my own main concern has shifted to ensuring that,
even if we choose GitHub now, we can still add GitLab, Kallithea or
Phrabricator in parallel later, without disrupting the folks that
genuinely prefer GitHub based workflows)

For me personally, regardless of what happens in the near term, I
still want to see us eventually offer a free-software-needs-free-tools
friendly contribution path running on a project like GitLab CE,
Kallithea or Phabricator.

However, I'm also satisfied that, regardless of what we do on the free
software side of things, we want to offer a GitHub based contribution
path for folks familiar with that workflow (I now see this as similar
to the fact we actively work to support both Windows and Mac OS X as
user and contributor platforms, even though they're proprietary
operating systems).

Having accepted that my own long term goal is to minimise barriers to
contribution both for folks accustomed to using popular proprietary
platforms *and* for folks that aim to use exclusively free software,
I've come around to the view that a compromise "open enough" solution
that leaves *nobody* especially happy with the outcome likely isn't a
good approach, and hence it's better to pursue a "parallel
contribution path" model where we create two *interoperable*
workflows, rather than a single *compromise* workflow.

Splitting the two workflows that way means the folks that "just want
something that works" can benefit from the use of a commercial
freemium service, while folks that genuinely prefer to use free and
open source tools are also generally willing to be a bit more
forgiving of any deficiencies relative to better funded alternatives.

That means my core requirements for the near term solution have
changed markedly from those I documented in my withdrawn workflow
PEPs: I now merely want to ensure we don't lock ourselves *out* of
adding a parallel free-software-needs-free-tools contribution path
later. The GitHub-with-a-merge-bot refinement currently being
discussed on the core-workflow list clearly meets that criterion
(since a merge bot can be updated to accept submissions from multiple
sources), and the GitLab EE proposal in PEP 507 arguably does as well
(the features we want from GitLab EE that aren't in GitLab CE are
relatively minimal, and hence readily implemented on top of CE as an
external script if desired).

Cheers,
Nick.

P.S. As an analogy I've been working on, consider how folks typically
approach creating a welcoming environment for vegetarians & vegans at
a community event. Do they:

1) serve exclusively vegetarian & vegan dishes?; or
2) provide enjoyable vegetarian & vegan dishes, clearly marked as
such, while also providing non-vegetarian options?

The latter approach is by far the most common one, as the former risks
vocal complaints about the lack of meat dishes from non-vegetarians at
the event if your event isn't specifically about vegetarianism and
veganism. The equivalent we see in open source workflow design is
folks resenting being "forced" to use open source and free software
solutions that they consider inferior (or at least unfamiliar) in
order to participate, rather than being given a free choice between
them and their more familiar proprietary competitors.

By the same taken, nobody would consider a community event that
refused to cater to special dietary needs to be a particularly
welcoming event, which is why I consider it important to offer a
free-software-needs-free-tools friendly approach to contribution.

-- 
Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia

From vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk  Sat Dec 19 03:34:55 2015
From: vinay_sajip at yahoo.co.uk (Vinay Sajip)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 08:34:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [python-committers] JetBrains licenses for IDEs
Message-ID: <loom.20151219T092342-956@post.gmane.org>

Several committers have used JetBrains' PyCharm IDE in the past, and I am the 
person who initially requested a license for Python committers. The last 
license we had expired a while ago, and a couple of people asked me about 
renewals.  So I applied to JetBrains for a renewed license.

They have now very kindly responded with licenses for Python committers - not 
just for PyCharm but for a number of their other development tools as well - 
including IntelliJ IDEA, AppCode, CLion, PyCharm and others. The terms of the 
license (which is valid for a year, but should be renewable) restricts usage 
to development of non-commercial, open source software.

JetBrains' new licensing model means that (IIUC) each user needs to have a 
JetBrains account. Once you have set one up, let me know if you're interested 
in using the tools and I'll email you a link you can visit to get your 
license. Please note that we have a limited pool of licenses, and each click 
of the link will, I understand, take one license from the pool. Please don't 
share this link with anyone else, and if another committer asks you about it, 
please refer them to me (so that I can keep track of who has what).

Regards,

Vinay Sajip



From larry at hastings.org  Mon Dec 21 01:36:46 2015
From: larry at hastings.org (Larry Hastings)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:36:46 -0800
Subject: [python-committers] [RELEASED] Python 3.4.4 is now available
Message-ID: <56779DFE.9040709@hastings.org>


On behalf of the Python development community and the Python 3.4 release 
team, I'm pleased to announce the availability of Python 3.4.4.  Python 
3.4.4 is the last version of Python 3.4.4 with binary installers, and 
the end of "bugfix" support.  After this release, Python 3.4.4 moves 
into "security fixes only" mode, and future releases will be 
source-code-only.

You can see what's changed in Python 3.4.4 (as compared to previous 
versions of 3.4) here:

     https://docs.python.org/3.4/whatsnew/changelog.html#python-3-4-4

And you can download Python 3.4.4 here:

     https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-344/

Windows and Mac users: please read the important platform-specific 
"Notes on this release" section near the end of that page.


One final note.  3.4.4 final marks the end of an era: it contains the 
last Windows installers that will be built by Martin von Loewis.  Martin 
has been the Windows release "Platform Expert" since the Python 2.4 
release cycle started more than twelve years ago--in other words, for 
more than half of Python's entire existence!  On behalf of the Python 
community, and particularly on behalf of the Python release managers, 
I'd like to thank Martin for his years of service to the community, and 
for the care and professionalism he brought to his role.  It was a 
pleasure working with him, and we wish him the very best in his future 
projects.


We hope you enjoy Python 3.4.4!

Happy holidays,


//arry/
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