[Python-Dev] Challenge about print >> None

Jeremy Hylton jeremy@beopen.com
Thu, 14 Sep 2000 11:48:50 -0400 (EDT)

>>>>> "VM" == Vladimir Marangozov <Vladimir.Marangozov@inrialpes.fr> writes:

  VM> Remove the feature, discuss it, try providing arguments so that
  VM> we can agree (or disagree), write the PEP including a summary of
  VM> the discussion, then decide and add the feature.

The last step in the PEP process is for Guido to accept or reject a
PEP.  Since he is one of the primary advocates of the print >>None
behavior, I don't see why we should do what you suggest.  Presumably
Guido will continue to want the feature.

  VM> In this particular case, I find Guido's attitude regarding the
  VM> "rules of the game" (that you have fixed, btw, PEPs included)
  VM> quite unpleasant.

What is Guido's attitude?  What are the "rules of the game"?

  VM> I speak for myself. Guido has invited me here so that I could
  VM> share my opinions and experience easily and that's what I'm
  VM> doing in my spare cycles (no, your agenda is not mine so I won't
  VM> look at the bug list).  If you think I'm doing more harm than
  VM> good, no problem. I'd be happy to decline his invitation and
  VM> quit.

You're a valued member of this community.  We welcome your opinions
and experience.  It appears that in this case, Guido's opinions and
experience lead to a different conclusion that yours.  I am not
thrilled with the print >> None behavior myself, but I do not see the
value of pursuing the issue at length.

  VM> I'll be even more explit:

  VM> There are organizational bugs in the functioning of this
  VM> micro-society that would need to be fixed first, IMHO. Other
  VM> signs about this have been expressed in the past too. Nobody
  VM> commented. Silence can't rule forever. Note that I'm not writing
  VM> arguments for my own pleasure or to scratch my nose. My time is
  VM> precious enough, just like yours.

If I did not comment on early signs of organizational bugs, it was
probably because I did not see them.  We did a lot of hand-wringing
several months ago about the severage backlog in reviewing patches and
bugs.  We're making good progress on both the backlogs.  We also
formalized the design process for major language features.  Our
execution of that process hasn't been flawless, witness the features
in 2.0b1 that are still waiting for their PEPs to be written, but the
PEP process was instituted late in the 2.0 release process.