[Python-Dev] Re: Re: Stackless Python

Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu
Wed Jun 2 11:30:38 EDT 2004

"Christian Tismer" <tismer at stackless.com> wrote in message
news:40BD00C0.6010606 at stackless.com...
> Terry Reedy wrote:
> > One criterion for adding a new module is a constituency of users.  One
> > thing that would help the Stackless in Python cause is more evidence
> > it is useful in practice as well as in theory and expectation.  Even
> > the only thing I can find on the site is
> > "
> > Stackless has impressive applications, like:
> >   a.. Eve, an online massive multiplayer game by CCP Games
> >   b.. ? by Iron Port
> > "
> > Eve was listed two years ago and ? does not say much.  I went to the
> > site, downloaded several videos, and from what was presented, was
> > negatively, so it is not obviously to me an advertisement for
Stackless. So
> > other examples, less costly to try out, might be more persuasive.
> Why did you do that?

Do what?  Accept the invitation to follow the posted link to the new
Stackless site to learn more about Stackless today?  Click on the Wiki link
and read?  Click on the included link to the one and only listed example

Among other things, I looked to see if there were currently a free trial
period for Eve, as there sometines is for online games.  If I were to try
it, and it ran smoothly for some time without lags and crashes (which I
have experience of), then that would suggest that the tools (including
Stackless) and use thereof were adequate to the task.  If not, that
something (though not necessarily Stackless) would be shown lacking.

> Would you download and try Zope, in order to judge about Python?

Given that you seem to be trying to ridicule sensible behavior, it is
ironic that you should pick that particular example.  In fact, several
years ago, Zope (perhaps by its earlier name) was touted as Python's
'killer application'.  At least a few people said something like 'To see
Python in action, go visit the Python/Zope powered Zope site.'  Which I
(and others) did.  And it appears that others went further and downloaded
Zope to try on their own systems.  A year or two ago, the Zope site listed
Plone as an example of Zope in action.  I followed the link to its site and
signed up for one of the free demo accounts.

> Would you say C is a bad language, because you (perhaps) don't like
> Perl?

The issue is performance, not liking.  In any case, the proof of C was
Unix, 30 years ago.  I switched from Fortran to C in 80/81, long before
Perl existed.  However, if Perl were the only available example application
for C, then yes, trying it out would one sensible way to evaluate C.

> Last time I disliked a movie, I really thought celluloid is a bad idea.

If there were a celluloid movie development site that listed exacly one
celluloid movie and either its price to watch were too much for me and the
free stills unimpressive,  or its *technical* performance crummy, then I
would consider its technical virtue unproven.  But that is not the case.

> These examples

To me, there is only one example.  I don't count '?'.  But perhaps you know
something you can't post.

> are shown to prove that Stackless has industrial strength, nothing else.

Your biased-by-parenthood assertion is not proof to most people.  The mere
existence of Eve is not proof.  A positive evaluation of its technical
performance would be evidence.  To paraphrase my original second sentence:
if you want me to see that Stackless has industrial strength, show me more

Terry J. Reedy

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