[Python-Dev] [Python-3000] Proposed Python 3.0 schedule
rhamph at gmail.com
Tue Oct 7 22:45:11 CEST 2008
On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:51 AM, James Y Knight <foom at fuhm.net> wrote:
> On Oct 7, 2008, at 3:47 AM, Martin v. Löwis wrote:
>>> - Having os.getcwdb isn't much use when you can't even run python in
>>> the first place when the current directory has "bad" bytes in it.
>> That's not true: it *is* of much use. Python will live in /usr/bin,
>> which has a nicely-decodable path.
>>> Currently Python outputs:
>>> Could not find platform independent libraries <prefix>
>>> Could not find platform dependent libraries <exec_prefix>
>>> Consider setting $PYTHONHOME to <prefix>[:<exec_prefix>]
>>> Fatal Python error: Py_Initialize: can't initialize sys standard streams
>>> ImportError: No module named encodings.utf_8
>> I can't reproduce that. This happens (for me) when Python lives in
>> a directory that has an undecodable path - not when the current
>> directory is undecodable.
> Sorry about that: this test was indeed in error: I ran "../python" from an
> undecodeable current directory, rather than "/full/path/to/python", or
> putting python on the PATH and running it as "python". The first does not
> work, but the other more common ways to start it do.
>>> I'm sure there's even more APIs dealing with pathnames, command line
>>> arguments, or environment variables that ought to be able to handle both
>>> bytes and strings, that currently don't.
>> Please, no.
> I completely and totally agree with your distate, it's rather gross to allow
> bytes-or-str for every API that touches anything like
> filenames/argv/environ. That's why I was pushing for the reversible
> conversion to str...But if bytes-or-str is the solution that's been chosen
> for this issue, it ought to either be fully committed to and implemented, or
> at least fully recognized and documented as a half-baked solution.
> Of course, if an reversible encoding into string solution is used instead,
> none of these things would need special treatment: they would all work
> FWIW: Qt works fine with undecodeable filenames, and it too uses unicode
> strings everywhere in its API. I looked into what it does, and found that it
> uses your (Martin)'s original idea for solving this: it stores undecodeable
> bytes as characters from 0x10fe00 to 0x10feff (which is valid private-use
> codespace). While that might not be ideally correct, since you lose those
> 256 PUA characters, even that is IMO better than pushing out bytes to every
> API, or worse, giving up and just having python unable to access files, as
> it is now.
> See lines 3074: QString::toUtf8() and 3408: QString::fromUtf8()) of
So what does Qt do when given a file name already using those PUA?
Looks like they get passed through untouched when decoded, but will
get translated into invalid names upon encoding. So you still have
file names you can't open, and you're incompatible with what other
The only thing going for Qt is that they seem specifically interested
in latin-1, rather than arbitrary bad names. The latin-1 strings that
would correspond to the UTF-8 PUA used would include at least one
control character, as well as other unusual bits, so it's pretty
unlikely to encounter a real latin-1 file name like that.
Adam Olsen, aka Rhamphoryncus
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