[Python-Dev] "setuptools has divided the Python community"

[Tarek Ziadé]

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis at pitrou.net> wrote:
> Paul Moore <p.f.moore <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> 3. Setuptools, unfortunately, has divided the Python distribution
>> community quite badly.
>
> Wait a little bit, and it's gonna be even worse, now that buildout and pip seem
> to become popular. For example, the TurboGears people are considering switching
> from setuptools to pip...
>
> Tarek is now doing a lot of very useful work on distutils (thanks Tarek!), but
> I'm not sure it'll be enough to stop people from converting to whatever of the
> many build/packaging systems which have been popping up recently. Combined with
> the current trend that everything must be exploded into lots of interdependent
> but separately packaged libraries (the paste/pylons syndrome... try pulling
> something like TurboGears2 and see how many third-party packages it installs), I
> fear this is going to generate a very painful user/developer experience :-(
>

I think we are in a point in Python development where we need to clearly define
how dependencies work. And this has to be defined in Python (in Distutils)
for the sake of standardization.

I think the Language Summit tomorrow is a good place to discuss about
these problems,
and to make sure pip, setuptools and zc.buildout rely on the same
standards and pieces.

PEP 376 is my first attempt to make it happen, and my goal is to see another
pre-PEP coming out of thea language summit, adressing the dependencies problem.

I can't hear that setuptools has divided the Python community. It has provided
solutions to real problems we had in web development. It's unperfect,
and it has to be
fixed and integrated into Python. But it should not be done outside Python imho.

If you had worked with Zope 5 years ago, you would understand what
setuptools and
zc.buildout brought to these communities. And today's experience is a
whole less painful trust me.

But I agree that the sizes of the packages are too small now, and it has gone
to far. Installing a web app like Plone is scary (+100 packages)

But this is the responsability of Zope, TG, etc to distribute their packages in
bigger pieces I guess.

(I can't wait to be at the summit ! :))

Cheers
Tarek