[Python-Dev] 2012 Language Summit Report (updated, included here)
brian at python.org
Thu Mar 15 04:46:49 CET 2012
After a few comments and corrections, including one to post the report
directly here...what follows below is the text of what was updated on
the previously linked blog post.
Much of the changes were to add more detail from a few people. One
correction lies in the importlib discussion, in that I previously
mentioned the effect on explicit relative imports. This was incorrect:
it should have said *implicit* relative imports.
2012 Language Summit Report
This year's Language Summit took place on Wednesday March 7 in Santa Clara,
CA before the start of `PyCon 2012`_. As with previous years, in attendance
were members of the various Python VMs, packagers from various Linux
distributions, and members of several community projects.
The Namespace PEPs
The summit began with a discussion on PEPs `382`_ and `402`_, with
Barry Warsaw leading much of the discussion. After some discussion, the
decision was ultimately deferred with what appeared to be a want for parts of
As of Monday at the PyCon sprints, both PEPs have been rejected (see the
Rejection Notice at the top of each PEP). Martin von Loewis `posted to the
import-sig list`_ that a resolution has been found and Eric Smith will draft
a new PEP on the ideas agreed upon there. Effectively, PEP 382 has been
outright rejected, while portions of PEP 402 will be accepted.
Brett Cannon announced that there is a completed and available branch of
CPython using importlib at
See the ``bootstrap_importlib`` named branch.
Discussion began by outlining the only real existing issue, which lies in
``stat``'ing of directories. There's a minor backwards incompatibility issue
with time granularity. However, everyone agreed that it's so unlikely to
be of issue that it's not a showstopper and the work can move forward.
Additionally, there was an optimization made around the ``stat`` calls, which
was arrived at independently by each of Brett, Antoine Pitrou, and P.J. Eby.
The topic of performance came up and Brett explained that the current
pure-Python implementation is around 5% slower. Thomas Wouters exclaimed that
5% slower is actually really good, especially given some recent benchmark
work he was doing showing that changing compilers sometimes shows a 5%
difference in startup time. There was a shared feeling that 5% slower was not
something to hold up integration of the code, which pushed discussion
Brett went on to explain what the bootstrapping actually looks like, even
asserting that the implementation finds what could be the first *real* use of
frozen modules! Guido's first response was, "you mean to tell me that after
20 years we finally found a use for freezing code?"
``importlib._bootstrap`` is a frozen module containing the
necessary builtins to operate, along with some re-implementations of a small
number of functions. Some of the libraries included in the frozen module are
``warnings``, ``_os`` (select code from ``posix``), and ``marshal``.
Another compatibility issue was brought up, but again, was decided to be an
issue unworthy of halting the progress on this issue. There's a negative
level count which is not supported in ``importlib``, used in implicit
relative imports, and it was agreed that it's acceptable to continue not
The future will likely result in a strip down of ``import.c``, as well as
the exposure of numerous hooks as well as exposure of much of the
As for merging with the ``default`` branch, it was pretty universally agreed
upon that this should happen for 3.3 and it should happen soon in order to
get mileage on the implementation throughout the alpha and beta cycles.
Since this will be happening shortly, Brett is going to follow-up to
python-dev with some cleanup details and look for reviews.
Release Schedule PEPs
Discussion on PEPs `407`_ and `413`_ followed the ``importlib`` talk. Like
the namespace PEP discussion, several ideas were tossed around but the group
didn't arrive at any conclusion on acceptability of the PEPs.
Immediately, the idea of splitting out the standard library to be on its own
was resurrected, which could lend itself to both PEPs. Some questions
remain, namely in where would the test suite live. Additionally, there may
need to be some distinction between the tests which cover standard libraries
versus the tests which cover language features.
The topic of versioning came up, with three distinctions needing to be made.
We would seem to need a version of the language spec, a version of the
implementation, and a version of the standard library.
Many commenters mentioned that these PEPs make things too complicated.
Additionally, there was a question about whether there are enough users who
care about either of these changes being made. Several of us stated that *we*
could use the quicker releases, but with so many users being stuck on old
versions for one reason or another, there was a wonder of who would take
Thomas Wouters mentioned a good point about the difficulty in lining up the
so-called Python "LTS" releases with other Python consumers who do similar
LTS-style releases. Ubuntu and their LTS schedule was a prime example, as
well as the organizations who plan releases atop something like Ubuntu. Many
of the Linux distribution packagers in attendance seemed to agree.
One thing that seemed to have broad agreement was that shortening the
standard library turnaround time would be a good thing in terms of new
contributors. Few people are interested in writing new features that might
not be released for over a year -- it's just not fun. Even with bug fixes,
sometimes the duration can be seen as too long, to the point where users may
end up just fixing our problems from within their own code if possible.
Guido went on to make a comment about how we hope to avoid the mindset some
have of "my package isn't accepted until it's in the standard library". The
focus continues to be on projects being hosted on PyPI, being successful out
in the wild, then vetted for acceptance in the standard library after maturity
of the project and its APIs.
It was suggested that perhaps speeding up bug fix releases could be a good
move, but we would need to check with release managers to ensure they're on
board and willing to expend the effort to produce more frequent releases.
As with the new feature releases, we need to be sure there's an audience
to take the new bug fixes.
There was also some discussion about what have previously been called "sumo"
releases. Given that some similar releases are already made by third-party
vendors, the idea didn't seem to gain much traction.
Funding from the Python Software Foundation
PSF Chairman Steve Holden joined the group after lunch to mention that the
foundation has resources available to assist development efforts, especially
given the sponsorship success of this year's conference. While the foundation
can't and won't dictate what should be coded up, they're open to proposals
about the types of work to be funded.
Steve and Jesse Noller were adamant about the support not only being for all
Python implementations, but also for third-party projects. What's needed to
begin funding for a project is a concrete proposal on what will be
accomplished. They stressed that the money is ready and waiting -- proposals
are the way to unlock it.
Some ideas for how to use the funding came from Steve but also from around the
room. One idea which started off the discussion was the idea of funding
one-month sabbaticals. Then comes the issue of who might be available. Some
suggested that freelance consultants in the development community might be the
ones we should try to engage. Those with full-time employment may find it
harder to acquire such a sabbatical, but the possibility is open to anyone.
Another thought was potential funding of someone to do spurts of full-time
effort on the bug tracker, ideally someone already involved in the triage
effort. This type of funding would hope to put an end to the times when it
takes three days to fix a bug and three years for the patch to be accepted.
Some thought this might be a nice idea in the short term, but it could be
tough work and burn out the individual(s) involved. If anyone is up for it,
they're encouraged to propose the idea to the foundation.
Along similar lines of tracker maintenance, Glyph Lefkowitz of the Twisted
project had an idea to fund code reviews over code-writing efforts.
Some thought this might be a good way to push forward the ``regex``/``re``
situation, given that the ``regex`` is very large and most felt that the only
thing holding it back from some form of inclusion is an in-depth review. The
``cdecimal`` module was mentioned as another project that could use some
The code review funding is also an idea to push forward some third-party
project's ports to Python 3, specifically including Twisted, which the group
felt was an effort which should receive some of this funding.
Along the way it was remarked that the `core-mentors`_ group has been a
success in involving new contributors. Kudos to those involved with that list.
In about two minutes, discussion on PEP `405`_ came and went. Carl Meyer
mentioned that a reference implementation is available and is working pretty
well. A look from the OSX maintainers would be beneficial, and both Ned Deily
and Ronald Oussoren were in attendance. It seemed like one of the only things
left in terms of the PEP was to find someone to make a declaration on it,
and Thomas Wouters put his name out there if Nick Coghlan wasn't going to do
it (update: Nick will be the PEP czar).
PEP 397 Inclusion
Without much of a Windows representation at the summit, discussion was fairly
quick, but it was pretty much agreed that PEP `397`_ was something we should
accept. Brian Curtin spoke in favor of the PEP, as well as mentioning ongoing
work on the Windows installer to optionally add the executable's directory
to the Path.
After discussion outside of the summit, it was additionally agreed upon that
the launcher should be installed via the 3.3 Windows installer, while it can
also live as a standalone installer for those not taking 3.3. Additionally,
there needs to be some work done on the PEP to remove much of the low-level
detail that is coupled too tightly with the implementation, e.g., explaining
of the location of the ``py.ini`` file.
After generous hardware donations, the http://speed.python.org site has gone
live and is currently running PyPy benchmarks. We need to make a decision
on what benchmarks can be used as well as what benchmarks *should* be used
when it comes to creating a Python 3 suite. As we get implementations on
Python 3 we'll want to scale back 2.7 testing and push forward with 3.x.
The project suffers not from a technological problem but from a personnel
problem, which was thought to be another area that funding could be used for.
However, even if money is on the table, we still need to find someone with
the time, the know-how, and the drive to complete the task. Ideally the
starting task would be to get PyPy and CPython implementations running and
comparing. After that, there are a number of infrastructure tasks in line.
PEP 411 Inclusion
PEP `411`_ proposes the inclusion of provisional packages into the standard
library. The recently discussed ``regex`` and ``ipaddr`` modules were used as
examples of libraries to include under this PEP. As for how this inclusion
should be implemented and denoted to users was the major discussion point.
It was first suggested that documentation notes don't work -- we can't rely
only on documentation to be the single notification point, especially for
this type of code inclusion. Other thoughts were some type of flag on the
library to specify its experimental status. Another thought was to emit a
warning on import of a provisional library, but it's another thing that we'd
likely want to silence by default in order to not affect user code in the
hopes that developers are running their test suite with warnings enabled.
However, as with other times we've gone down this path, we run the risk of
developers just disabling warnings all together if they become annoying.
As has been suggested on python-dev, importing a provisional library from a
special package, e.g., ``from __experimental__ import foo``, was pretty
strongly discouraged. If the library gains a consistent API, it penalizes
users once it moves from provisional status to being officially accepted.
Aliasing just exacerbates the problem.
The PEP boils down to being about process, and we need to be sure that
libraries being included use the ability to change APIs very carefully. We
also need to make people, especially the library author, aware of the need to
be responsive to feedback and open to change as the code reaches a wider
Looking back, Jesse Noller suggested ``multiprocessing`` would have been a
good candidate for something like this PEP is suggesting. Around this time,
it was suggested that Michael Foord's `mock`_ could gain some provisional
inclusion within ``unittest``, perhaps as ``unittest.mock``. Instead, given
``mock``'s stable API and wide use among us, along with the need for a
mocking library within our own test suite, it was agreed to just accept it
directly into the standard library without any provisional status.
While on the topic of ``regex``'s role within the PEP came an idea from
Thomas Wouters that ``regex`` be introduced into the standard library,
bypassing any provisional status. From there, the previously known ``re``
module could be moved to the ``sre`` name, and there didn't appear to be any
dissenting opinion there.
It should also be noted to users of provisional libraries that the library
maintainers would need to exercise extreme care and be very conservative in
changing of the APIs. The last thing we want to do is introduce a good library
but as a moving target to its users.
Keyword Arguments on all builtin functions
As recently came up on the tracker, it was suggested that wider use of keyword
arguments in our APIs would likely be a good thing. Gregory P. Smith suggested
that we leave single-argument APIs alone, which was agreed upon. However,
the overall change got some push back as "change for change's sake".
In order to support this, the ``PyArg_ParseTuple`` function would need to do
more work, and it's already known to be somewhat slow. Alternatively,
``PyArg_Parse`` is much faster, and the tuple version could take a thing or
two from it regardless of any wide scale change to builtins.
There does exist some potential break in compatibility when replacing a
builtin function with a Python one, where positional-only arguments suddenly
get a potentially conflicting name.
It was widely agreed upon that we should avoid any blanket rules and keep
changes to places where it makes sense rather than make wholesale changes. We
also need to be mindful of documentation and doc strings being kept to match
the actual keyword argument names as well as keep them in sync.
OrderedDict was suggested as the container for keyword arguments, but Guido
and Gregory were unsure of use-cases for that. Whether or not we use a
traditional or ordered dictionary, it was suggested that we could possibly
use a decorator to handle some of this. We could even go as far as exposing
something like ``PyArg_ParseTuple`` as a Python-level function.
PEP `362`_, a proposal for a function signature object, would help here and
with decorators in general. It seems that all that's left with that PEP is
another look and someone to declare on it.
Porting to Python 3
We moved on to talk about Python 3 porting, starting with the current
strategies and how they're working out. Single-codebase porting is working
better than expected for most of us, although ``except`` handling is a bit
messy when supporting versions like 2.4. Having a lot of options, from 3to2
to 2to3, then the single codebase through parallel trees, is a really good
thing. However, it's hard for us to choose a strategy for projects,
so we don't, which is why most documentation tries to lay numerous strategies
It was suggested that documentation could stand to gain more examples of
real-world porting examples, ideally pointing to changesets of these projects.
The thought of our porting documentation gaining a cookbook-style approach
seemed to get some agreement as a good idea.
Release candidates are available to all branches receiving security fixes,
and in the meantime, David Malcolm found and reported a security issue in
the upstream ``expat`` project. However, since the upstream fix includes
many other fixes at the same time, we should pick up only the security fix
at this time and leave the bug fixes for the next bug fix release of the
New ``dict`` Implementation
Since the implementation makes sense and the tests pass, it was quickly agreed
upon that Mark Shannon's PEP `412`_ should be accepted. As with other changes
agreed upon in this summit, we'd like for the change to be pushed soon in
order to get mileage on it throughout the alpha and beta cycles. With this
acceptance comes commit access for Mark so that he can maintain the code.
It was also remarked that the only user-visible difference that this
implementation brings is a difference in sort ordering, but the recent
hash randomization work makes this a moot point.
New ``pickle`` Protocol
PEP `3154`_, mentioned by Lukasz Langa, specifies a new pickle protocol
-- version 4. Lukasz mentioned exception pickling in ``multiprocessing`` as
being an issue, and Antoine solved it with this PEP. While qualified names
provide some help, it was agreed upon that this PEP needs more attention.
If you have any questions or comments, please post to `python-dev`_.
*Thanks to Eric Snow and Senthil Kumaran for contributing to this post.*
.. _PyCon 2012: https://us.pycon.org/2012/
.. _362: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0362/
.. _382: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0382/
.. _397: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0397/
.. _402: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0402/
.. _405: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0405/
.. _407: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0407/
.. _411: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0411/
.. _412: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0412/
.. _413: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0413/
.. _3154: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3154/
.. _posted to the import-sig list:
.. _core-mentors: http://pythonmentors.com/
.. _mock: http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/mock/
.. _python-dev: http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
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