[Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib
Terry Reedy
tjreedy at udel.edu
Thu Mar 21 02:17:08 CET 2013
On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
> It seems to me that we are seeing increasing use of IDLE for beginner
> training. I've seen several recent Python books that use IDLE as their
> programming environment, and which include IDLE screen captures in the
> text.
Well, one can hardly use Command Prompt captures, unless one were to
flip black and white within the window (but not its frame).
> I've always felt that IDLE should be targeted to an eight year old
> beginner, and should work uniformly across the major platforms. That
> now includes the Raspberry Pi!!
I think it should also work uniformly across Python versions. That is
the gist of PEP434.
> I believe it's very important that Python come with an IDE as part of
> the "batteries" - it's very awkward for a beginner to write code in
> something like Notepad and then run and debug it in a Windows command shell.
I cut and pasted when I began ;-).
> IDLE has a single keystroke round trip - it's an IDE, not just an editor
> like Sublime Text or Notepad. In the 21st century, people expect some
> sort of IDE. Or, they should!
I have never understood those who suggest that an editor, even a super
editor, can replace IDLE's one key F5-run, with one click return to the
spot of the foul on syntax errors.
> OTOH, development is likely to be more vigorous if it's separate.
Perhaps, perhaps not, or perhaps it would become 'too' vigorous if too
many developers pushed multiple 'kitchen sinks'.
> I'd also like to make a plea to keep IDLE's interface clean and basic.
> There are lots of complex IDEs available for those who want them. It's
> natural for developers to add features, that's what they do :-), but you
> don't hand a novice a Ferrari (or emacs) and expect good results. IMHO
> some of the feature patches on the tracker should be rejected on that
> basis.
Have you commented on those issues? I so far have mostly concentrated on
fixing current features. I agree that major new features should be
considered carefully and perhaps discussed on a revived idle-sig list. I
have never used some of the existing features, like breakpoints, that
seem pretty advanced. I first opened a debugger window only recently, in
order to comment on a issue about a possible bug. We should document how
to use that before adding anything else comparable.
> It's sometimes said that IDLE is "ugly" or "broken". These terms are
> subjective!
When IDLE-closing bugs are all fixed, I would like to see how much
difference themed widgets would make to appearance. Then we could debate
whether IDLE should look 'native' on each platform or have a common
'Python' theme -- or have both and let users choose.
> If it's truly broken, then we should fix it. If it's
> "broken" because a feature is missing, maybe that's an intentional part
> of Guido's design of a simple Python IDE.
Without a vision and design document, it is sometimes hard for someone
like me to know which is which.
--
Terry Jan Reedy
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