[Python-Dev] Checking in Argument Clinic early?

[Brett Cannon]

On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Eli Bendersky <eliben at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, Larry Hastings <larry at hastings.org>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I really want to get Argument Clinic in to Python 3.4.  Currently the
>> following is true:
>>
>>    - It has an implementation I've been working on for more than a year.
>>    - I assert that it's a reasonable approach and the APIs are ready for
>>    public consumption.
>>    - The syntax for the DSL is the one proposed by Guido at PyCon US
>>    2013.
>>     - So far It has little in the way of documentation apart from the
>>    PEP.
>>    - The PEP is out of date and not ready for pronouncement.
>>    - IIUC Guido said he's not delegating this PEP.
>>
>>
> I'm neutral here but just wanted to say that it amazes me that we
> simultaneously (1) run a centi-thread about some semantic trifles in
> exception handling, peppered with bikeshedding and emotions and (2) you
> plan to "just go ahead and commit" a large, significant feature for which:
>
> 1. The PEP is out of date and has not even been pronounced
>

Guido has essentially pronounced for a while, Larry just didn't bother to
update the PEP based on agreements made in person.


> 2. The code only got "cursory review"
>

Well, I stared at the code over a day and a half with Larry sitting next to
me, going over almost all of it line-by-line. So it's cursory by me
ignoring PEP 8 style violations, but it wasn't just a quick scroll-through.


> 3. The code is not even in a state suitable for convenient review, as
> Antoine noted
>

Beyond the tests and Argument Clinic script, only the output is not
self-contained, so reviewing it against a checkout is more about how stuff
shifts in the .c files which has already been blessed by Guido, not the
main code that does the work.


>
> And all of that just because the 3.4 deadling is looming. This makes me
> somewhat sad about our process :-/
>

You also need to remember this is initially a tool for *us* and not the
outside world, so brittleness found after release really isn't an issue as
long as Python continues to compile. Since we are the users we are the ones
using and iterating on it before final release, and so the sooner the
better. This isn't a rush where we will have something possible half-baked
until it sees public use; it's going to iterate quickly the day it's landed
and we all can work towards getting it done for ourselves before 3.4 final
is out.

-Brett


>
> And the comparison to Tulip is completely irrelevant. Every single thing
> in Tulip is being heatedly discussed among multiple developers on the Tulip
> list for many months now, and all code gets reviewed.
>
> Eli
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>    -
>>
>>
>> There's now a discussion afoot about merging "tulip" in, in time for
>> 3.4a4, which I think is going to happen.  And as Release Manager for 3.4
>> I'm happy to see this happen.
>>
>> I'd like to propose much the same thing for Argument Clinic: check it in
>> now, before 3.4a4, and let it bake in trunk a little before feature freeze
>> at beta 1 while I run around and finish the documentation.
>>
>>
>> You can review the existing code here:
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/larry/python-clinic/
>>
>> (Yes, in this fork clinic.py is at the root--but then I never intended to
>> merge this fork.)
>>
>> Checking in Clinic would mean:
>>
>>    - Adding the tool (one file, "clinic.py") and its test suite into
>>    Tools/clinic/
>>    - Adding its documentation somewhere in the Doc/ directory
>>     - Merging six or eight places where I've converted random functions
>>    to use Clinic
>>
>> Brett Cannon gave the code a cursory review at PyCon CA over about six
>> hours, and iirc he said it was basically reasonable.  He wanted more
>> coverage in the tests, and more in-depth review of course, but he had only
>> minor feedback, all of which I've incorporated.
>>
>> (In case you're wondering: last time I tried, coverage from just the unit
>> test suite was about 85%, but if you also ran all my sample usage of it in
>> the CPython code it rose to like 92%.)
>>
>>
>> So, quick poll: do you approve of me checking Argument Clinic in to
>> Python 3.4 trunk in its current state before 3.4a4?
>>
>>
>> */arry*
>>
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>
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