[Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu
Fri Sep 27 22:09:01 CEST 2013

On 9/27/2013 3:10 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:
> On Sep 27, 2013, at 2:50 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:
>> I add: for 2.7/3.3, there is consequently no need for _ensurepip to be in /Lib after installation, even if temporarily added*. If it is not there, there is no change the the stdlib, and hence no violation of the 'no new features' policy. The optional installation of pip is not a change to Python itself.
> This sounds like a really bad idea to me.

Why would you think that an idea aimed at ending an argument blocking 
your proposal is bad. This seems like a really bad response to me.

> You're going to end up with a different stdlib not only by minor release, but by if they installed through an installer or not.

The current proposal is to add a new module to the stdlib in a bugfix 
release, which looks like a violation of current policy. We agree that 
that end result of pip installed would be good. We are arguing over 
whether adding '_' to the name makes it not a violation or whether the 
good outweighs the bad of a violation. I claim that the arguement is not 
necessary and can be ended by not making the addition or by hiding it.

I presume your objection refers to the fact that one can clone the 
repository and compile Python on Windows, albeit with some difficulty. 
My three responses:

1. I do not consider the the result to be 'installed Python', at least 
not as I have used the project file.

2. The ratio of people building Python on Windows to those downloading 
and running an installer is so close to 0 that it can be ignored. People 
who build Python on Windows are not typical Python beginners.

3. If you do not agree with 1 and 2 and object to _ensurepip being in 
/Lib in such limited circumstances, then either put it in /Tools/scripts 
or do not use it at all. I already said that the 2.7/3.3 Windows 
installer maker (Martin) should decide whether to even use it.

4. The argument for including _ensurepip somewhere in the repository it 
that people who *do* build python.exe could then use it to install pip 
the first time. /Tools/scripts would be sufficient for this.

5. The result of not having /Lib/_ensurepip in installed Python would, 
in any case, be a lessor violation of the policy.

Terry Jan Reedy

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