[Python-Dev] PEP 453 (pip bootstrapping) ready for pronouncement?

Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com
Mon Sep 30 15:07:36 CEST 2013

On 30 Sep 2013 21:52, Martin v. Löwis <martin at v.loewis.de> wrote:
> Hash: SHA1
> Am 30.09.13 13:18, schrieb Donald Stufft:
> > Well the point we tried to get across in the PEP is that a normal
> > feature you can typically just install a backport from PyPI to gain
> > it early. This isin't so much driven by "well it'd be nice for the
> > stdlib to have X", but "well this is a real and valid pain point
> > that causes pain for a lot of users".
> I see it exactly vice versa. A normal new language feature, you *cannot*
> get early from PyPI, e.g. if it's a syntax extension (e.g. the with
> statement).

It's standard library improvements (like SSL hostname matching) that are
relevant to this comparison, rather than the kinds of changes that were
barred by the language moratorium.

> OTOH, *this* particular feature you can easily get from
> PyPI - just download and run the PIP installer.
> > The 2.7 backport was driven by just how painful this particular
> > pain point can be. I've personally had feedback that in tutorials
> > at like PyCon or meet ups that easily 1/3 of the time can be spent
> > in getting users setup with Python, setuptools, and pip.
> I'm sure there is something that can be done about it. What operating
> system are people using who have difficulties to set this all up?
> I see that pip doesn't have a Windows installer on PyPI. That looks
> like the real culprit to me. I'd be willing to work with you to
> provide one (that ideally bundles all dependencies).

We'll take you up on that offer. Windows is the main problem, since other
platforms offer wget/curl out of the box so bootstrapping is easy by

> > Obviously you're the delegate for this PEP and it's your final
> > decision and either way If the PEP is accepted I'll do the
> > implementation for 3.4.
> The backporting is the main stumbling block. Otherwise, I'm in favor
> of the PEP.

My plan now is to split the PEP in two, so the 3.4 changes can be accepted
as non-controversial, including the offer of core dev assistance in
creating and maintaining a Windows installer for pip to better support
earlier versions. The backporting PEP will be deferred, for reconsideration
some time in the future after the initial PEP has been implemented.


> Regards,
> Martin
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> =r+wP
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