[Python-Dev] Python "2migr8"

[Guido van Rossum]

On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 4/14/2014 11:32 AM, Steve Dower wrote:
>
[...]
>
 The main trigger was a conversation I had with two employees of a
>> very large bank that has about 3000 Python users (not developers -
>> mostly financial analysts) and 16 million lines of code running on
>> 2.7.
>>
>
> Sounds like a billion-dollar company. Are they a PSF sponsor, and a
> top-tier one at that? If the company is profitable, it could afford to fund
> a half- to full-time developer.


A few people have made similar suggestions to me at the conference, but I
personally believe that there is a better way.

I don't think we ought to make companies feel bad about not donating to the
PSF. The PSF is doing fine, but IMO it shouldn't be in the business of
employing core developers. Being an employer is fraught with difficulties,
and there are serious risks both for the PSF (due to the rigidity of
employment laws, for example) and for the employee (e.g. benefits, worry
about continuity, oversight and direction).

IMO a much better approach would be to convince companies to free up some
of their current employees or new hires to invest e.g. 50% of their time
into core Python development. Such "liaison" folks can become a valuable
resource both for the other Python users in the company and for the core
Python developers (by telling us about pain points in their company). In
the ideal situation such people will help search for solutions that benefit
their employers while also conforming to (and sometimes influencing! :-)
the general direction of Python core development. The (roughly) 50/50
division ensures that such employees are rooted in the practices of their
company and feel the pain of other Python users directly. It also makes
sure that they won't be considered as having too much of a "special status"
by their colleagues and managers, can share freely in the companies
benefits and incentives, and so on.

(I should say that this is my own situation at Dropbox and previously at
Google, and I personally wouldn't want it any other way. I know not
everybody wants to be a "regular employee", and some folks think of
themselves as "free spirits" who don't want to be "working for the man".
There's plenty of space for such folks in the Python core dev community,
but I think that the kind of company that Steve Dower is speaking of would
not be helped as much by hiring such a "consultant".)


> > They are keen to migrate to 3.x but cannot afford to stop work
>
>> entirely while their code is updated.
>>
>
> Sounds like they are looking ahead several years and anxious to avoid the
> 'comforable with XP' trap.


Ohhh, nice analogy!


>  In describing the approach they'd like to take, they made me realise
>> that there is definitely a place for a Python that is different but
>> mostly compatible with 2.7, in a way that 2.7.x could not be. For the
>> sake of having a name, I'll refer to this as "Python 2migr8"
>> (pronounced "to migrate" :) ).
>>
>
> This should be a separate project from pydev, even if under the PSF
> umbrella.
>
>
>  The two important components of Python 2migr8 would be the ability to
>> disable 2.7-only features, and to do so on a module-by-module basis.
>>
>
> A reasonable request of pydev would be for python-coded stdlib modules to
> be updated as much as possible, if that has not already been done. No
> 'apply', no 'except SomeException, e'.


I'm not sure what you're proposing here, but I don't think it would be wise
to go on a code modernizing spree of the 2.7 stdlib. Contrary to what some
believe, the stdlib often isn't a great example, because it lives under the
pressure of quite unusual constraints.


>
>
>  However unfair
>> and incorrect it may be, there is a perception in some businesses
>> that open-source projects do not want contributions from them.
>>
>
> For PSF/CPython, this is so untrue that it looks to me like an excuse to
> take without giving back. This might be 'unfair and incorrect', but it is
> my perception.
>
>  I invited more than one business to have someone join python -dev and
>>
>> get involved during PyCon, and I heard that others did the same - it
>> may not be at the level of employing a core developer full time, but
>> it's the starting point that some companies will need to be able to
>>
>> become comfortable with employing a core dev.
>>
>
> Let's hope some act on your invitation.


I really hope to have a direct conversation with some companies in this
situation, but unfortunately they didn't approach me at PyCon -- they only
approached Steve (perhaps because he works for a brand they recognize and
trust :-).

-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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