[Python-Dev] Guarantee ordered dict literals in v3.7?

[Brett Cannon]

On Mon, 6 Nov 2017 at 11:08 Paul Sokolovsky <pmiscml at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Mon, 06 Nov 2017 17:58:47 +0000
> Brett Cannon <brett at python.org> wrote:
>
> []
>
> > > Why suddenly once in 25 years there's a need to do something to
> > > dict's, violating computer science background behind them (one of
> > > the reason enough people loved Python comparing to other "practical
> > > hack" languages)?
> >
> > I don't understand what "computer science background" is being
> > violated?
>
> I tried to explain that in the previous mail, can try a different
> angle. So, please open you favorite CS book (better few) and look up
> "abstract data types", then "mapping/associative array" and "list". We
> can use Wikipedia too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative_array.
> So, please look up: "Operations associated with this data type allow".
> And you'll see, that there're no "ordering" related operations are
> defined. Vice versa, looking at "sequence" operations, there will be
> "prev/next", maybe "get n'th" element operations, implying ordering.
>

I don't think you meant for this to come off as insulting, but telling me
how to look up the definition of an associative array or map feels like
you're putting me down. I also have a Ph.D. in computer science so I'm
aware of the academic definitions of these data structures.


>
> Python used to be a perfect application of these principles. Its dict
> was a perfect CS implementation of an abstract associative array, and
> list - of "sequence" abstract type (with additional guarantee of O(1)
> random element access).


> People knew and rejoiced that Python is built on solid science
> principles, or could *learn* them from it.

That no longer will be true,
> with a sound concept being replaced with on-the-spot practical hack,
> choosing properties of a random associative array algorithm
> implementation over properties of a superset of such algorithms (many
> of which are again don't offer any orderness guarantees).
>
>
I don't think it's fair to call the current dict implementation a hack.
It's a sound design that has a certain property that we are discussing the
masking of. As I said previously, I think this discussion comes down to
whether we think there are pragmatic benefits to exposing the ordered
aspects to the general developer versus not.

-Brett


>
>
> I know though what will be replied (based on the replies below): "all
> these are implementation details" - no, orderness vs non-orderness of a
> mapping algorithm is an implementation detail; "users shouldn't know all
> that" - they should, that's the real knowledge, and up until now, they
> could learn that from *Python docs*, "we can't predict future" - we
> don't need, we just need to know the past (25 years in our case), and
> understand why it was done like that, I don't think Guido couldn't code
> it ordered in 1991, it's just not natural for a mapping type to be so,
> and in 2017, it's not more natural than it was in 1991.


>
> MicroPython in particular appeared because Python offered all the
> CS-sound properties and freedom and alternative choices for
> implementation (more so than any other scripting language). It's losing
> it, and not just for MicroPython's surprise.
>
>
> []
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Paul                          mailto:pmiscml at gmail.com
>
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