[Python-ideas] Default arguments in Python - the return

[Tennessee Leeuwenburg]

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 12:59 AM, Georg Brandl <g.brandl at gmx.net> wrote:

> Tennessee Leeuwenburg schrieb:
>
> > I don't have a casual attitude towards breaking code, just an open mind
> > towards discussions on their merits. I don't really appreciate the
> > negative tones, and I'm sure that if anyone else is in the firing line,
> > they wouldn't appreciate either, even if it to some extent it's all a
> > bit of a storm in a teacup. Unless someone who is happy to cop a bit of
> > flak stands up and says that's not on, then maintaining a "thick skin"
> > -- i.e. putting up with people putting you down, be it through a clear
> > and direct put-down, or through a more subtle implication -- becomes the
> > norm. It becomes acceptable, perhaps indeed even well-regarded, to take
> > a certain viewpoint then suggest that anyone who doesn't share it is
> > doing something wrong.
>
> The problem is that people whose proposal immediately meets negative
> reactions usually feel put down no matter what exactly you say to them.
> If there was a polite way of saying "This will not change, please don't
> waste more of our time with this discussion." that still gets the point
> across, I would be very grateful.


I understand that. I think there is a good way to do it. First of all, I
would recognise that this is the python-ideas list, not the python-dev list,
and that this is *exactly* the place to discuss ideas on their merits, and
potentially put aside pragmatics to engage in a discussion of design
philosophy.

For bad ideas, I would suggest:
   "Thanks for your contribution. However, this has been discussed quite a
lot before, and the groundswell of opinion is most likely that this is not
going to be a good addition to Python. However, if you'd like to discuss the
idea further, please consider posting it to comp.lang.py."

For good/okay ideas that just won't get up, I would suggest:
  "Thanks for your contribution. I see your point, but I don't think it's
likely to get enough traction amongst the developer community for someone
else to implement it. However, if you'd like more feedback on your ideas so
that you can develop a PEP or patch, please feel free to have a go. However,
please don't be disappointed if it doesn't get a lot of support unless you
are happy to provide some more justification for your position.".

I don't really think anyone on a mailing list really needs to waste any more
time than they want to -- just ignore the thread.

I would definitely avoid things like:
  "You clearly have no idea what you are talking about"
  "If you only knew what I knew, you'd know differently"

It's probably not possible to avoid people with an idea feeling deflated if
their ideas are not popular, but on an ideas list such as this, I think that
having conversations should be encouraged. Certainly that's what got under
my skin. If I was chatting in person, or with friends, or in a meeting, the
appropriate thing to do would be to say "Hey, that's a bit rough!" and then
probably the attitude would be wound back, or the person would respond with
"Oh, that's not what I meant, I just meant this..." and the misunderstanding
would be quickly resolved.

Unfortunately, email just *sucks* for telling the difference between someone
with a chip on their shoulder, or someone who is just being helpful and made
a bad choice of words.

Cheers,
-T
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