[Python-ideas] Default arguments in Python - the return

[Tennessee Leeuwenburg]

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <stephen at xemacs.org>wrote:

> Pascal Chambon writes:
>
>  > So could't we smoothen edges, in order to keep the discusion as it's
>  > supposed to be - a harmless sharing of pros and cons arguments, which
>  > endangers no one's life -
>
> In discussions about Python development, misuse of the term "Pythonic"
> to support one's personal preference is not harmless.  It leads to
> confusion of newbies, and ambiguity in a term that is already rather
> precise, and becoming more so with every PEP (though it is hard to
> express in a few words as a definition).  The result is that the BDFL
> may use that term at his pleasure, but the rest of us risk being
> brought up short by somebody who knows better.
>
>  > instead of having it randomly turned into a  confrontation of egos,
>
> This was not a random event.  It was triggered by, *and responded only
> to*, the misuse of the word "Pythonic".



I guess it's never occurred to me, and I wouldn't have thought it would be
immediately clear to everyone, that Pythonic simply means "Whatever BDFL
thinks". I've always thought it meant "elegant and in keeping with the
design philosophy of Python", and up for discussion and interpretation by
everyone. I never thought that it would be used as a means of *preventing*
discussion about what was or was not 'Pythonic'. *Obviously*, BDFL's
opinions on the language are authoritative, but that doesn't make them
beyond discussion.

This is the Python Ideas list, not the dev-list, and I was discussing my own
interpretation, not trying to force anyone on anything. To recall a quote I
heard once, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts".
I would have thought that expressing ones' opinion about what is or is not
Pythonic is a wonderful thing to encourage. It's like encouraging people to
discuss what elegant code looks like, or the merits of a piece of writing.

I thought was very clear that I was talking about my interpretation of what
was Pythonic, and clear that I was in no way talking about trying to claim
authority. I feel a bit like I've been targetted by the thought police,
truth be told, although that overstates matters. I didn't think I was in any
way saying "My way is absolutely more Pythonic, you should all think like
me", but much more along the lines of, "Hey, I think my solution captures
something elegant and Pythonic, surely that's worth talking about even if
there are some practical considerations involved".  I just thought I'd be
clear in saying "seems to me to be more Pythonic" rather than "is more
Pythonic".

Where are people going to talk freely about their interpretation of what is
and isn't Pythonic, if not the ideas list? I'm also subscribed to the
python-dev list, and I've never attempted to force an opinion there. Isn't
*this* list the right place to have conversations about these concepts? I
don't think people should be pulled short for talking about Pythonicity,
just for trying to impose their world-view. That's what rubs wrongly --
being told you're not even supposed to *talk* about something, or not be
entitled to an opinion on something. I would have thought that getting
involved in discussing the Zen of Python is something that should be a part
of everyone's learning and growth, rather than something which is delivered
like a dogma. That's not to say there isn't a right answer on many issues,
but it has to be acceptable to discuss the issues and to hold personal
opinions.

Cheers,
-T
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