[Python-ideas] .pyu nicode syntax symbols (was Re: Empty set, Empty dict)

[Guido van Rossum]

Sorry Terry, I was short (and ended up being cryptic) because I was on a
mobile device. I meant "this is a bad idea and should be rejected", and in
addition I also meant to discourage a 3rd party implementation of the idea.
I also wanted to object against your claim that this idea has only been
left unimplemented because of disinterest or inaction by the core dev team;
to the contrary, the general sentiment is pretty clear that it's a bad
idea. There are other ideas that are not suitable for adding to the
language but where we would encourage folks to help themselves by writing a
module or extension and posting it on PyPy, or even ideas where it would
eventually be a good idea to include such a package into the stdlib. But
this is not one of them.


On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 12:11 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy at udel.edu> wrote:

> On 6/22/2014 8:30 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Hm. What's wrong with rejecting bad ideas?
>>
>
> [I am not sure whether you are asking seriously or rhetorically, but I
> think this question is worth a serious response.]
>
> Aside from the fact that different people have different ideas of what is
> an absolutely bad idea, nothing. I personally reject almost all new syntax
> ideas because I think most of them are local small-audience optimizations
> that would overall make Python worse.
>
> However, the purpose of python-ideas is "Discussions of speculative Python
> language ideas". 'Discussion' means not routinely trying to stop
> discussion. Indeed, some good can come from discussion of ideas I (or you)
> think are bad.
>
> Rejection has multiple forms, not mutually exclusive:
>
> Inaction: by default, an idea is effectively rejected until a patch is
> committed.
>
> Education: explaining how one can already accomplish the desired task.
>
> Deflection: suggest implementing the idea somewhere other than in core
> Python.
>
> Explanation: explain why something is bad.
>
> Downvote or BDFL rejection: (self-explanatory)
>
>  On Jun 22, 2014 1:19 PM, "Terry Reedy"
>> <tjreedy at udel.edu
>> <mailto:tjreedy at udel.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>     Problem: For years, various people have suggested that they would
>>     like to use syntactically significant unicode symbols in Python
>>     code. A prime example is using U+2205, EMPTY SET, ∅, instead of
>>     'set()'.
>>
>
> Specifically, I believe people have asked that Python parsers accept and
> translate unicode symbols *in .py files*. This would have the immediate
> effect of making some .py files invisibly and unnecessarily incompatible
> with all existing Python interpreters, even if the translated code would
> run just fine. I, too, do not want the meaning of '.py' fragmented further
> than it already is.
>
>
>      On the other hand, the conservative, overwhelmed core
>>     development group is not much interested and would rather do other
>>     things.
>>
>
> In other words, the idea of changing Python itself has been and will be
> rejected by inaction for at least the next few years, and until
> circumstances change after that.  (Hence, no need for *me* to 'reject' it.)
>
>
>      Solution: Act instead of ask.
>>
>
> 'Stop asking' is not only rejection of the idea of changing Python, but
> also of continuing the discussion that has gone on for years. People who do
> not want to give up the idea should do something else. In the course of
> suggesting an implementation, I also suggested some aspects of an
> implementation that I consider important.
>
>
>      One or more of the people who really want this could get themselves
>>     together and produce a working system. (If multiple people, ask for
>>     a new sig and mailing list).
>>
>
> Discuss it elsewhere because python-ideas is not 3rd-party-package-dev.
>
>      1. Ask core development to reserve '.pyu' for python with unicode
>>     symbols. (If refused, chose something else.)
>>
>
> In other words,
> 1. do not use .py for unisym_python.
> 2. while .pyu seems like an obvious alternative (to me), recognize
> python-devs moral rights to .pyx, regardless of legalities.
>
>      2. Write pyu.py. It should first translate x.pyu to the equivalent
>>     x.py. ...  run x.py.
>>
>
> To be clear, I meant write x.py to disk, where it would be available for
> humans to read. This is specifically aimed at the issue of 'fragmenting the
> community'.
>
> >     [snip implementation idea]
>
>      A mathematician that used most of those symbols, for a math
>>     audience, could still use the ascii tranlation for other audiences.
>>
>
> Again, I would want the standard .py file available.
>
> In my first post to clp/python list over 17 years ago, I dubbed Python
> 'executable pseudocode' and opined that it should be used to communicate
> algorithms in preference to non-executable notation. I would rather a
> mathematician use symbols embedded in Python, with a link to a .py file,
> than the same symbols in a non-executable *and non-testable* notation.
>
>
> --
> Terry Jan Reedy
>
>
>
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>



-- 
--Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido)
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