[Python-ideas] Rename python-dev?

Wes Turner wes.turner at gmail.com
Fri Jul 10 14:16:02 CEST 2015

On Jul 9, 2015 9:53 PM, "Russell Keith-Magee" <russell at keith-magee.com>
> On Fri, Jul 10, 2015 at 3:11 AM, Ryan Gonzalez <rymg19 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is a crazy idea that popped into my head recently.
>> What if python-dev were to be renamed to something like
python-internals? (Yeah, that's a bad name, but my naming skills suck...)
Basically, something that gets across the idea that it's for development of
Python, not in Python.
>> Python-dev would visibly disappear, but mails sent to python-dev would
be redirected to the new name.
>> BTW, in reality, it's not an uncommon mistake. I know of a few mailing
lists built for development *with* a tool that end in -dev, such as
> You can't solve a social problem with technology, and I have evidence to
back up this specific case.
> Django has a -dev and -users mailing list (following Python's example).
We have exactly the same problem of people posting "how do I" questions to
-dev, and the same recurring theme of posts that claim "if we just rename
the group, the problem will go away".


* not responded to
* redirected (project src, builds,docs, issues links)
* request for more information (to narrow scope; information gain;
"-keywords TypeError")
  * "is there a coredump / stack trace uploader?"
* in scope; ensuing discussion
* answered/solved

> Our mailing lists are on Google Groups, so we have the option of setting
a public name for the group that is different to the mail alias. About a
year ago, we changed the name of the group from "Django Developers" to
"Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)". When you sign up for
the mailing list, you see that title, and confirm that this is the group
you want to sign up for.
> Less than 2 days after the rename took effect, we had our first -dev post
that should have been posted to -users. Since then, the rate of incorrectly
addressed posts hasn't significantly changed from before the name change.

Is there an ASCII block of text with each of the project links that could
be appropriately pasted/helpfully suggested according to e.g. a #keywords
and/or natural language patterns?


("Looks like a mailing list optimization request; here are the relevant
project links")

... The workflow is always "find similar from ( defined set, wider set )
[go fish]", link/crossref/clarify; test; write tests/docs; build (test);
backtrack to traceable issue identifier (#6, urn:x-:org/proj/6) and
follow-up (with a link for traceability).

Is this at all relevant?

* No, there is no justifiable reason to rename the mailing list (because I
label them all .l.py)
* #MailingListTriage

> We have a similar problem with the DSF contact page:
> https://www.djangoproject.com/contact/foundation/
> The top of that page has a series of instructions indicating that the
contact form is for the legal and fundraising arm of the project, and
suggests several places to post inquiries about technical matters. And yet,
we get 2-3 contact requests a week for technical assistance.
> The same is also true of the page to create new tickets on the Django bug
> https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket
> Despite the notices, we still get security reports and requests for help
lodged as tickets.
> The moral of the story: evidence shows that no matter what the name, or
the instructions given, people will get it wrong. Yes, these posts are
annoying - but it's a teachable moment for people you are hoping to
incorporate into your community. The best option (IMHO) is to politely
redirect their question to -users, possibly with a link to a wiki page or
documentation entry that describes the sources of help that are available
for newcomers.
> It's also worth taking the time to work out what funnel has led people to
post to the "wrong place". *Something* has led them to believe that posting
to -dev is the right solution to their problem - how can the website or
other resources be changed to alter that perception? Some deeper analytics
on the path people have taken to get to the -dev signup page might help
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
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