[Python-ideas] Non-English names in the turtle module.

[Andrew Barnert]

I find it really annoying when people pick one sentence out of a post to argue against at length, out of context. while entirely ignoring the actual substance of the post.

Are you sincerely arguing that no children out there will have Python 3.5, 3.3, or 2.7, or that for all such student upgrading to 3.6 will be easier and face fewer permissions problems than using pip? If not, then how does this answer my point that some people will want this on PyPI even if it's in the 3.6 stdlib?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 4, 2015, at 10:27, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 12:18:52AM -0700, Andrew Barnert wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sep 3, 2015, at 19:45, Steven D'Aprano <steve at pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> 
>>> - Beginners aren't going to know to "pip install whatever". Some of us 
>>> here seem to think that pip is the answer to everything, but if you look 
>>> on the python-list mailing list, you will see plenty of evidence that 
>>> people have trouble using pip.
>> 
>> Of course a sizable chunk of those say "my Python didn't come with 
>> pip" and the after a bit of exploration you find that they're using 
>> Python 2.7.3 or something, so any feature added to Python 3.6 isn't 
>> likely to help them anyway.
> 
> You say "of course", but did you actually look at the python-list 
> archives? If you do, you will see posts like these two within the last 
> 24 hours:
> 
> [quote]
> I am running Python 3.4 on Windows 7 and is facing [Error 13] 
> Permission Denied while installing Python packages...
> [end quote]
> 
> and:
> 
> [quote]
> Well I have certainly noted more than once that pip is contained in 
> Python 3.4. But I am having the most extreme problems with simply typing 
> "pip" into my command prompt and then getting back the normal 
> information on pip!
> [end quote]
> 
> And a random selection of other issues which I just happen to still 
> have visible in my news reader:
> 
> [quote]
> Python 2.7.9 and later (on the python2 series), and Python 3.4 and 
> later include pip by default. But I can not find it in python2.7.10 
> package. What's the matter? How can i install pip on my Embedded device?
> [end quote]
> 
> [quote]
> I've installed a fresh copy of Python 3.5.0b2 and - as recommended - 
> upgraded pip. I don't understand the reason for the permission errors as 
> I am owner and have full control for the temporary directory created.
> [end quote]
> 
> [quote]
> I was fed up with trying to install from pypi to Windows.  Setup.py more 
> often than not wouldn't be able to find the VS compiler. So I thought 
> I'd try the direct route to the excellent Christoph Gohlke site at 
> http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ which is all whl files these 
> days.  However as you can see below despite my best efforts I'm still 
> processing the tar.gz file, so what am I doing wrong?
> [end quote]
> 
> 
> (Some spelling errors and obvious typos corrected.)
> 
> Please don't dismiss out of hand the actual experience of real users 
> with pip. At least one of those quotes above is from a long-time Python 
> regular who knows his way around the command line.
> 
> This is not meant as an anti-pip screed, so please don't read it as 
> such. But it is meant as a reminder that pip is not perfect, and that 
> even experienced Python developers can have trouble installing packages. 
> Children with no experience with the command line or Python can not be 
> expected to install packages from PyPI without assistence, and if they 
> are using school computers, they simply may not be permitted to run "pip 
> install" even if it worked flawlessly.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve
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