[Python-ideas] Packaging systems (was Non-English names in the turtle module)

Rustom Mody rustompmody at gmail.com
Sat Sep 5 09:09:08 CEST 2015

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 10:57:42 PM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 04, 2015 at 12:18:52AM -0700, Andrew Barnert wrote: 
> > On Sep 3, 2015, at 19:45, Steven D'Aprano <st... at pearwood.info 
> <javascript:>> wrote: 
> > > 
> > > - Beginners aren't going to know to "pip install whatever". Some of us 
> > > here seem to think that pip is the answer to everything, but if you 
> look 
> > > on the python-list mailing list, you will see plenty of evidence that 
> > > people have trouble using pip. 
> > 
> > Of course a sizable chunk of those say "my Python didn't come with 
> > pip" and the after a bit of exploration you find that they're using 
> > Python 2.7.3 or something, so any feature added to Python 3.6 isn't 
> > likely to help them anyway. 
> You say "of course", but did you actually look at the python-list 
> archives? If you do, you will see posts like these two within the last 
> 24 hours: 
> [quote] 
> I am running Python 3.4 on Windows 7 and is facing [Error 13] 
> Permission Denied while installing Python packages... 
> [end quote] 
> and: 
> [quote] 
> Well I have certainly noted more than once that pip is contained in 
> Python 3.4. But I am having the most extreme problems with simply typing 
> "pip" into my command prompt and then getting back the normal 
> information on pip! 
> [end quote] 
> And a random selection of other issues which I just happen to still 
> have visible in my news reader: 
> [quote] 
> Python 2.7.9 and later (on the python2 series), and Python 3.4 and 
> later include pip by default. But I can not find it in python2.7.10 
> package. What's the matter? How can i install pip on my Embedded device? 
> [end quote] 
> [quote] 
> I've installed a fresh copy of Python 3.5.0b2 and - as recommended - 
> upgraded pip. I don't understand the reason for the permission errors as 
> I am owner and have full control for the temporary directory created. 
> [end quote] 
> [quote] 
> I was fed up with trying to install from pypi to Windows.  Setup.py more 
> often than not wouldn't be able to find the VS compiler. So I thought 
> I'd try the direct route to the excellent Christoph Gohlke site at 
> http://www.lfd.uci.edu/~gohlke/pythonlibs/ which is all whl files these 
> days.  However as you can see below despite my best efforts I'm still 
> processing the tar.gz file, so what am I doing wrong? 
> [end quote] 
> (Some spelling errors and obvious typos corrected.) 
> Please don't dismiss out of hand the actual experience of real users 
> with pip. At least one of those quotes above is from a long-time Python 
> regular who knows his way around the command line. 
> This is not meant as an anti-pip screed, so please don't read it as 
> such. But it is meant as a reminder that pip is not perfect, and that 
> even experienced Python developers can have trouble installing packages. 
> Children with no experience with the command line or Python can not be 
> expected to install packages from PyPI without assistence, and if they 
> are using school computers, they simply may not be permitted to run "pip 
> install" even if it worked flawlessly. 
Packaging systems suffer from a Law: 

The quality of the packaging-system is inversely proportional to the 
quality of the language being packaged

[Corollary to the invariable NIH syndrome that programmers suffer from]


Haskell' hackage : Terrible
Python's pip: Bad
Ruby's gems: Ok
Perl's CPAN : Good
Debian's apt (mishmash of perl, shell and other unspeakbles) : Superb
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