[Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

[Michel Desmoulin]

Le 06/11/2017 à 23:48, Chris Barker a écrit :
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michel Desmoulin
> <desmoulinmichel at gmail.com <mailto:desmoulinmichel at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I know and you still:
> 
>     - have to use py -m on windows, python3 linux, python in virtualenv...
> 
> 
> can't you use python3 -m pip install .....
> 
> everywhere?

No: on windows you don't have python3, you have py -x.x. On linux you
can't pip install, you need --users, admin rights or a virtualenv.

> 
> That's what I tell my beginner students to do, and I've never had a
> problem. (nce they got Python installed right in the first place) For that:
> 
> The python.og installers for Windows and Mac pretty much 
> "just work"

Nope. E.G: in windows, if you don't check "add python executable to
system path" people won't be able to type "python" in the shell. It's
unchecked by default.

> 
> Linux is a different story, but Linux users are more comfortable with eh
> whole idea of command lines and packages, etc -- so my Linux users have
> never been the hangup.

Not anymore. There is a wave of beginners arriving in an industry using
linux but being unfamiliar with the system. The problem is not that it's
hard. The problem is that it's work to discover it. The first Python
experience should be simple and straight forward.

Another problem is that it's not portable knowledge from an OS to another.

> 
> If/when I'm teaching data analysis for scientific computing, I go
> straight to conda, but for basic python, and most web Development,
> pyton.org <http://pyton.org> python and pip work great.

You can't teach conda first. It's not portable knowledge and would not
let students benefit from the mass of online tutorials that use pip and
virtualenv.

> 
> A also DO NOT introduce virtualenv right off the bat -- it is another
> complication that is critical to real development, but not important for
> learning python.
> 
> I have done it it the past -- it did not go well....
> 
> What's too bad now is that so many docs say "pip install the_package",
> and users with multiple python installs can get burnt. (though most don't)
> 

My point exactly.

> -CHB
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
> Oceanographer
> 
> Emergency Response Division
> NOAA/NOS/OR&R            (206) 526-6959   voice
> 7600 Sand Point Way NE   (206) 526-6329   fax
> Seattle, WA  98115       (206) 526-6317   main reception
> 
> Chris.Barker at noaa.gov <mailto:Chris.Barker at noaa.gov>