[Python-ideas] Looking for input to help with the pip situation

Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com
Sun Nov 12 04:55:43 EST 2017

On 12 November 2017 at 16:20, Michel Desmoulin
<desmoulinmichel at gmail.com> wrote:
> Le 10/11/2017 à 09:01, Nick Coghlan a écrit :
>> On 10 November 2017 at 17:05, Michel Desmoulin
>> <desmoulinmichel at gmail.com> wrote:
>> When we choose not to use venv, then it becomes necessary to ensure
>> each of those things individually for each potential system starting
>> state
> The way we do things is not the only way. Take JS: they don't have this
> problem, you npm install the same way everywhere. You don't have
> virtualenv but local node_modules. And you have transpilers to help with
> the langage version differences.

And they have browser manufacturers pouring millions of dollars a year
into their tooling ecosystem into order to influence whose ad networks
get clicked on most often.

Python doesn't have that level of investment, but we do have fine
folks volunteering to work on projects like `pip`, `virtualenv`, PyPI,
and the packaging.python.org documentation project, as well as
backports of standard library modules to earlier Python versions.

When someone attempts to explain to you the practical challenges that
limit both python-dev's and PyPA's ability to reliably control the
starting experience of new Python users, the appropriate response is
to *start listening*, not harangue them for failing to immediately
follow your peremptory orders to make things simpler for you.

"Do it because I said so" is bad management style even in an actual
company - it's even worse in a peer production environment like an
open source community.

> Now I'm not advocating we do it the JS way. I'm just saying that you are
> very keen to defend a statu quo instead of offering ideas to solve the
> problem.

I already opened
https://github.com/pypa/python-packaging-user-guide/issues/396 to
track possible areas of concrete near term improvement (I would have
tagged you on the issue, but I couldn't find a GitHub account under
your name).

> Besides, using venv have the same issues. It's not installed on linux by
> defaut.

That depends greatly on which Linux you install - the choice on
whether to deliberately cripple "python3 -m venv" or not is made by
the maintainers for that distribution, and Python-friendly distros
make sure Python's native tooling works properly by default.

> And on windows you'll have to do py -x.x -m but on mac pythonx -m.

CPython updates take years to reliably roll out to end user systems,
so if you're looking to have an impact in a shorter time frame than
that, the differences in cross-platform invocation are a constraint
you're going to have to learn to live with.


Nick Coghlan   |   ncoghlan at gmail.com   |   Brisbane, Australia

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