[Python-ideas] Debugging: some problems and possible solutions

Anders Hovmöller boxed at killingar.net
Thu Oct 4 11:57:45 EDT 2018

> [I think >> = ChrisA]
>>> However, it doesn't matter.
>> Of course it matters. It's the difference between changing the spec and changing the spec AND some implementation. There is a difference between those two things. You might not care but that's another topic.
> In terms of defining specs, not there isn't a difference between those things.

So in terms of X there is no difference in Y. No kidding. Which is why I said so. Repeatedly. 

>  Changing the language spec is not a thing to do lightly regardless of how many implementations happen to do what you already want.  

Where do you think I'm taking it lightly? I'm taking changing all python implementations seriously. That has non-zero weight to me. Do you and Chris think that changing the implementations of all python implementations and the complexity of that change is totally irrelevant to all discussions? I sure hope not! 

Changing the spec AND all implementations is pretty much by definition a bigger change and should be taken more seriously than only the spec. I don't take changing the spec lightly because I think changing the spec AND all implementation is MORE. 

I can't believe I'm arguing that 1 + 1 > 1 but here we are. 

I would hope you could drop this idea that I'm taking things "lightly" whatever that means. If I were taking it lightly I would have already submitted a PEP. 

> While gather evidence that the chaos your change will cause is minimal is a good thing, it doesn't actually lower the bar for getting a language spec change through.

Why do you repeat that? No one is saying the opposite. I'm saying the facts lowers the bar for IMPLEMENTATION. Because it's literally zero. That is totally orthogonal to the bar for getting a spec change through of course. Which I have already conceded like ten times now. 

How many times do I have to concede this point before you stop saying I need to concede it? Do I need to write it with my own blood on parchment or something?

> Think of it this way: you are proposing to break a promise.  Even if it's only a little thing and you're fairly sure everyone will forgive you, that's still not something you should ever want to get comfortable doing.

Every new thread on this mailing list does this. This is the entire point of this list. And I've conceded this point so you're just beating a dead horse.

/ Anders 

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