Python Popularity: Questions and Comments

[A. Keyton Weissinger]

<RANT STYLE="PONTIFICATE">
Interesting. I thought I was the only one considering these very same
issues.

A wee bit of background. I am a manager/developer for a group of J2EE coders
working with WebLogic/Oracle. I have espoused Python for some time and have
been recently introducing several scripts here and there to help us get more
done faster. These Python scripts have all been of the "infrastructure"
variety and have not been production-keep-the-lights-on-code.

OK. Here is the question I keep asking myself: If Python is as
cool/easy/powerful/etc as I think it is (and scream from the rooftops at any
opportunity), why do we not see it taking hold in a commercial sense?

Yes, I know. Many of you will tell me all about either (1) that so-and-so
installer (specifically RedHat) is all about Python; and that (2) XYZ
company uses Python you think, but doesn't want to share their commercial
advantage or some such.

And I will say, "Um yes. But you're missing my point."

If it is as "X" as we all say/know/feel-in-our-hearts that it is, why is
there so very little real commercial appeal? Why are there not industrial
strength application servers being based on Python? Why are there not big
public companies trying to sell products that improve upon Python in all its
Python-ness? Why is company X not moving all their dreck VB/COBOL/PL/1/etc
code onto Python instead of investing the huge amount of
money/time/resources into moving it to Java?

Is it perhaps that Python will never be up to that challenge? Does Python
not stack up against Java? Or have we open source dudes and dudettes simply
dropped the ball and have not yelled loudly enough? Unknown.

OK. At this point, I will get probably 3-10 messages public or private
saying that Python does not attempt to answer the same niche. That's crap.
We all say how powerful it is. Heck. We all know how powerful it is. We all
know that if we want to build a little server tester script we pull out
Python just as quickly as we do when we need to think about doing the Next
Big App (TM). The only difference is that only the server tester script gets
written and kept. The Python-based Next Big App gets thrown away or is never
written at all.

Why should I have to settle on using Python only for prototypes? Or scripts?
Or pseudo-code-to-be-converted-into-Java?

Python needs to be made (and proclaimed) "real."

Otherwise, instead of "batteries included" we all need to start saying "it's
an easier scripting language than Perl" because that's all it will ever be.

Java started with applets. Some dismissed it as cute at best. It is now one
of the very few non-M$ players on the commercial block that presents a
modern approach in business system development.

I've not perused Ruby. Frankly I've mentally set it in the same bin as CURL
(yes, I know they are completely different -- the bin has the label,
"Interesting."). But nothing I've seen wows me. Nothing I've seen has shown
me that it will help me get a real live 1000+ concurrent user business
system off the ground. Nothing.

And let's face it folks. That is what the overwhelming majority of the
industry decision makers are going to need to see to get them off VB or Java
or whatever.

As for ActiveState's move to lay off Mark Hammond, I have three things to
say:
1) Shame on ActiveState. Stupid move. I will take my $0 elsewhere, thank you
very much.
2) Shame on us. Why haven't we as the Python community asked Mark to make
his work part of SourceForge, rolled up our sleeves and worked on it? Has no
one ever heard of the "hit by a bus problem?" Yikes.
3) Folks may loathe M$ or not, but without someone like ActiveState pushing
support for Python, Python will get little play in that very large arena of
M$-specific development.

Have you met the "average professional developer" lately? He/She is a Visual
Basic "guru" of 3-5 (whopping) years experience. He calls open source "share
ware" and states emphatically the following: "Why would I mess with THAT
stuff? None of those open source cowboys code to 'Microsoft' standards."

Does that make your blood boil? Mine too. But guess what? That guy will be
there in a few more years. He will have been promoted because he got (an
admittedly crappy) product out the door. And then he will spread VB across
the world.

Oh wait. That's already happened.

Python will either grow into a real live alternative to industrial strength
languages like Java or it will continue to be an esoteric language that I
hesitate before putting on my resume.

Damn it. I don't know about you guys, but that pisses me off. Python is
cool -- WAY cooler/more-useful/powerful/etc than VB.

Let's take it out for a real drive in the open ocean. If it's not ready for
that, let's make it ready for that.

Do I have the know-how to dive into the Python source code and begin to
address the real serious threading-in-real-world-situations, optimizations,
and memory consumption issues? No. But I am willing to learn...

I will always use Python where it makes sense to use. I just wish it made
sense to use it in so many other places... And I think it can....someday.

</RANT>

Keyton

P.S. Please limit your flames to either tell me (1) this will never happen
and here's why or (2) how I can help make it happen....



> -----Original Message-----
> From: python-list-admin at python.org
> [mailto:python-list-admin at python.org]On Behalf Of Ron Stephens
> Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:59 PM
> To: python-list at python.org
> Subject: Python Popularity: Questions and Comments
>
>
> OK, so its between the holidays and the newsgroup is quiet, so maybe I
> dare waste a little bandwidth with that most useless (but fun)
> commodity: gossip.
>
> How is Python doing popularity wise? After such a meteoric growth
> thought the nineties, and a spectacular climax in 2000 and early 2001,
> is Python leveling out, going dot.bust, or still not yet at the knee of
> the software world's most spectacular growth curve?
>
> I'd be interested in some comments and observations and opinions from
> others. Meanwhile, here  are a few of my own:
>
> Python, while fabulously successful, is at an interesting point in its
> growth curve. It will be difficult to maintain the extremely high rate
> of growth exhibited so far; new contenders are possible problems; and
> the recessionary economy could also negatively impact Python's growth.
>
> 1. Ruby is an especially interesting competitor to Python. I have been
> monitoring the Ruby newsgroup, and it shows incredible growth and
> vitality. Furthermore, Ruby is aimed right at the heart of Python's
> niche.
>
> If we view Microsoft's Visual Studio, especially Visual Studio.net's C#
> and VB, as the official 800 lb. gorilla of software development; and if
> we view Java as the 400 lb. gorilla pretender to the throne; and if we
> view Borland's Delphi and Kylix as no more than a smart leader of a
> chimp; then everything else is the pack of open source chimps.
>
> The open source world is still led by PERL, but PERL is truly more of a
> text processing, web CGI, scripting specialist; not so much of a direct
> threat to Python. PHP is a server side scripting specialist. Even
> JavaScript is strong in its narrow niche of client side web scripting.
> Lisp and Scheme dominate thier academic world. But Python aims to be
> much more than these; Python aims to be a powerful general purpose
> programming language, in addition to being a very easy to learn and easy
> to use scripting language. And who can say that Python does not succeed
> very well in all of the above?
>
> But Ruby is also a more general purpose, object oriented, relatively
> easy to read, language. Ruby folks include those who like its more
> Perl-like syntax, but Ruby's core converts believe that its pure,
> absolute object oriented nature exceeds those of Python and make it more
> worthy to long term success. They seem to see Ruby as a more modern,
> up-to-date version of Python. They see Python as a compromise between
> object oriented and procedural programming.
>
> Be that as it may, I suspect that much of Ruby's momentum is simply due
> to its newness; all things new are seen as sexy in this world of ours.
> But nonetheless, Ruby has the following going for it.
>
> a. Usage on the Ruby newsgroup is growing much faster than on
> comp.lang.python in the last year that I have been observing it. A year
> ago, Python got typically three times as many posts per day as Ruby.
> Now, its more like a 4:3 ratio, with Python getting say, 4000 per month,
> and Ruby 3000. At this rate, Ruby could pass Python is  afew months, by
> this measure! (Rest assured, Ptyhonis fdoing much better if mesured by
> Sourceforge projects, about 1300 to 80). By the way, Just van Rossum's
> http://starship.python.net/~just/comp.lang.python/ graph of Python
> newsgroup coverage seems to show a slight decline from over 6000 per
> month in late-middle 2001 to the current 3500 or so I see on here. Mr.
> van Rossum said he may not be able to update these any more due to some
> Yahoo change; anyway, am I interpreting these numbers and trends
> accurately? Will the Python newsgroup usage turn upwards again? Does it
> matter?
>
> b. Ruby is getting alot of favorable press, and new books are coming out
> now. First, Pickaxe , now, Matz' own Ruby in a Nutshell and several
> others soon to be or already here.
>
> c. Ruby actually seems to be a nice language to me. Its object oriented
> features seem well thought out and yet its still easy to comprehend. I
> will never leave Python behind, but will others? I see quite a few
> former Pythonistas posting glowing reviews on comp.lang.ruby, but not as
> many as I see former Perl aficionados.
>
> d. Ruby has some smart and aggressive coders doing libraries,
> extensions, Java version etc. etc. etc., tehy are agressive and
> motivated; tehy think they will see world domination ;-)))
>
> Ruby also has some problems I see:
>
> a. Its windows version seems to have lots of problems. Specifically,
> threading doesn't work well at all on Windows, but that's not the only
> problem. Ruby on Windows is slow and somewhat buggy; seems to need a
> re-write and Matz is engaged in an extensive re-write. Who knows how
> successful?
>
> b. Ruby has no where near the libraries Python has, since Ruby is so
> much newer. But itime never stands still....
>
> What so you all think of Ruby, and its impact on Python?
>
> 2. The economy is hurting Python's open source development model. It was
> bad enough when the core Python coders were jerked around by Be Open;
> now I am very sad to hear of Mark Hammond's not being with ActiveState
> anymore? Without Mark Hommond's win32 work, Python would be a mere shell
> of its current self. A person who has given so much to the Python
> community as Mr. Hammond, deserves much better. How can an open source
> community like Python help reward its hard working heroes like Mr.
> Hammond? Will Guido and his team be next to suffer yet again? If
> ActiveState can't support Python development, much less a true
> Python.Net, who can? Will Zope survive financially? We should care. Why
> doesn't someone form a company to market a first class Zope based ISP
> service? The Zope folks saids they need such a thing to help promote
> Zope. If it could not be profitable, is Python and all open source
> development a mere flash in the pan? Without Mark Hammond, Python
> windows based development would fall into the sloughs of despond just
> like Ruby?
>
> I hope not.
>
> 3. Third, Python faces the laws of large numbers. It is exceedingly hard
> to continue a growth spurt past a certain point. Maybe were at that
> point, maybe not. But ask yourself this; Two years from now, will you
> see more Python success stories, more growth, or a leveling out? Five
> years from Now?
>
> Ten years from now, will Python still be Relevant? Oh, I know that
> Python will still be being used, and the community will still exist, but
> will it really be a thing that seems to Matter, like it does now.
>
> I like to Look on the brighter side of life, but I also like to win a
> few Spanish Civil Wars.
>
> What do you guys think????
>
> Ron Stephens
> http://www.awaretek.com/plf.html Python City
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
>