proposed language change to int/int==float (was: PEP0238 lament)
Guido van Rossum
guido at python.org
Wed Jul 25 06:54:45 CEST 2001
"Chris Gonnerman" <chris.gonnerman at newcenturycomputers.net> writes:
> Some of us have tried. Besides my alternative, I have seen two
> others which allow case-by-case preservation of the old semantics
> where they may have been intended.
> I have seen very few comments on them though (except from Stephen Horne).
It's not easy to find the light among the heat.
> 1. Best-effort handling of division is desirable.
> 2. An explicit operator for truncating division is desirable
> (as in, explicit is better than implicit).
> 3. Code breakage is bad, and difficult-to-detect code breakage
> is worse.
> 4. Difficulty in writing backwards-compatible code is bad
> (thus, code to implement partitioning of a dataset would
> naturally use the // operator in 2.2+ but would not be able
> to in pre-2.2, so the div() function would have to be
> religiously used, hurting readability).
> Assertion 1 and 2 conflict with 3 and 4; #4 in particular bothers
Hm, #4 is relatively new in this discussion (for me, anyway). I will
have to adapt to this new requirement, which I find reasonable
(although I wish it didn't exist -- but I understand the motivation).
> Many have said that #3 is irrelevant as we have from 2.2 to 2.4 to
> fix it, but I have upgraded several systems directly from 1.5.2 to
> 2.1 without substantial problems; going direct to 2.4 from 2.1 would
> not be so painless.
You will have at least from 2.2 to 2.6 though (at least two years),
and in reality more because I propose to add a command line option to
revert to old division semantics for several releases after 2.6.
> SOME way is needed to specify, in module scope, which set of
> mathematics rules should be enforced. Whatever method is used
> should (IMHO) be uniform from 2.2 to 2.4; my method, as given, is
> the only one where the code reads the same from 2.2 on:
> from __numerics__ import original # or standard, etc...
Not bad. But I am still uncomfortable with making the old semantics a
*permanent* wart of the language. I'd much rather deal with a future
statement for 5 years than with a __past__ statement forever.
An alternative that would not need this would be to require
from __future__ import division
in order to use the new semantics, and use the proposed command line
option (say, "python -D old") to default to the old behavior as long
as you have to support unconverted code.
> Just thinking about the implementation gives me headaches, but Guido
> and Co. have readily implemented fancy things like the
> from __future__ import phasers, warp_drive # or whatever
> and so my proposal (or a mutation thereof) should be no biggie.
Indeed, this wouldn't be hard -- although maybe a friendlier syntax,
like "directive blah, blah, blah" might make sense *if* we decide to
do this. (Which I still don't think is the best solution, but I do
see your point.)
> As I said, you can't honestly say we ALL haven't been trying. It's
> not that I object directly to the change, it's the overall
> plan/effect/semantics etc. that I don't like.
Would it be more palatable to you if the new semantics didn't become
the default (or the law) until Python 3.0 was introduced?
That's how Perl dealt with a much larger incompatible language change:
Perl4 was left alone (I believe there are still plenty installations
that require it) and Perl5 was the future.
--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
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