Is Python Dead?

Charlie Dyson charlie at charliedyson.net
Fri Jul 6 22:09:33 CEST 2001


alan runyan - runyaga at thisbox.com wrote on Monday 02 July 2001 07:01:

>> What exactly is "good database support?"  I haven't had a problem.
> 
> I think this is mostly due to the lack of centralization of python
> software
> (ala CPAN).  I believe there are stable python modules to access pretty
> much
> any database: oracle, odbc, sybase, bsdb (sleepycat),  solid, postgresql,
> etc...  I thought python's database support was weak, but when i needed it
> it always came through.
> 
>> I'm not a Zope user myself, but from what I've read about both PHP
>> and Zope, it appears they are pretty much even in capability (hopefully
>> an expert on the subject will comment here).
> 
> I'm far from an expert, but.. I do have an opinion.  From what I've seen
> in
> PHPland, ZOPE compares pretty much feature-for-feature and then some!. 
> ZOPE
> is a larger more comprehensive framework than any PHP 'framework'  that
> exists (including eGrail or phpGroupware).  Remember: PHP is a web
> programming language.  Python is a general purpose language.  ZOPE is a
> python framework.  IMHO, Zope has suffered popularity because it refuses
> to
> embed python (code) into the presentation layer (unlike PHP).  Also ZOPE
> is
> 100% object-oriented.  PHP isnt OO and reusibility is garnished from lots
> of
> #includes (where as ZOPE has access to Pythons lib and ZOPE accessories
> #and
> there is hooks into using Perl from ZOPE also.. so you get Perl's DB
> support
> as well).  PHP is faster, but it doesnt stack up in reusability, speed of
> development, or flexibility (Python as you mentioned, we all consider to
> be
> the best language on the net ;) in language design.  also, the ZODB is
> being wheened off of ZOPE dependency and is starting to show signs of
> Standalone
> distribution.  this is a __HUGE__ win for Python -- a trivially easy to
> use object database.
> 
>> > Python needs better leadership in areas of its growth.  Python is truly
>> the
>> > best language in use today, except it still isn't very useful for the
>> > largest solution sector, database access, and information presentation
>> (web,
>> > or otherwise).
> 
> uhm. I completely disagree.
> 
> information presentation I believe is fully covered by Python, nothing
> (that I know of) comes close to the bredth of GUI support in Python: QT,
> GDK, wxPython, TkInter, ?FOX?, and there are others! oh including Swing
> via
> Jython.  On the web scene there is healthy competition: WebWare (which is
> modelled after Java's Servlet design), ZOPE (which is a highly evolved
> framework that comes with a transactional object database), Quixote and
> quite a few others.  HTMLGen.  I believe mod_snake (?) is being kept up.
> There is a hook into the Ars Digita system via Python.  I believe you can
> present information using python in a myriad of ways -- its your choice ;)
> 
> ~runyaga
> 
> 
> 

I have never used Zope, but I have opinions on everything, so here goes. I 
have used PHP, an liked it. I think that PHP is *very* strong when dealing 
with database-interaction, whilst Zope is better targeted at maintaining 
large content websites. I personally would *really* like to see some way of 
using both. If I ever develop a large database driven website, here's how I 
would do it (yes, lots of people could do this better than me):

Have PHP to deal with the actual database part of the website

Have everything else - Homepage, help, about us, anything else the site 
does powered by Zope, because of it's excellent content-managing systems 
(which I do not understand...)

Anyway, I hear that there is some sort of Zope-like thing for PHP. I love 
PHP and Python, and so it's difficult to choose which to use. Let's face 
it, if anyone ever creates a one-size-fits-all web programming/site 
maintaining/database interfacing/dinner making programming language/content 
system, it'll either be so spread out, huge and bloated that it will be 
impossible to use, or only very badly do everything it does. It's better to 
have sharp, closely defined tools that can do one or two things well, and 
other things less well. That is why we have so many programming languages.

Hope I haven't bored you all,

Charlie Dyson - charlie at charliedyson.net

(I've only just started contributing to this group)




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