PEP scepticism

Bernhard Reiter bernhard at intevation.de
Fri Jun 29 11:04:44 CEST 2001


In article <mailman.993788804.16625.python-list at python.org>,
	"Tim Peters" <tim.one at home.com> writes:
> [Bernhard Reiter]
>> This a general warning against the second system syndrom in Python.
>>
>> Maybe I am a hypocritical sceptic, but I have the impression that
>> some feeping creatureism is introduced into Python.
> 
> These are different issues to me:  while feature bloat is a symptom of
> Second System Syndrome, the latter goes much deeper than *just* the former.

Agreed. It is good to see that you are aware of the problem (as expected).
Take my voice on the stack of people that think we should be even
more conservative about the additions.

>> This might reduce the main advantage of Python to be clear and easy
>> and mostly have one good formulation on how to express what you want
>> to program in a structured way.
> 
> While I expect everyone would agree those are advantages of Python, I doubt
> there's consensus that those 4 advantages are "the main" <wink> advantage.
> Language design is more complex than that.

Rethinking this I still think this are _the main_ advantages
compared to other languages. What do you think the main advantages
are? :)

>> Examples are:
>> 	- augmented Assigments
>> 	- Lists comprehensions
>> 	- Simple Generators
> 
> Two of those were widely debated over the course of a decade, 

I know. I've participated once IIRC.

> They aren't legitimate examples of Second System
> Syndrome, in part because of that:  they aren't examples of the system
> designer taking large leaps of faith on untested and unreviewed ideas.

Agreed. 
However not having augmented assignment made me think about it and
the clarity you gain when writing it more explicitly.

> If you want a SSS *prospect* to worry about, try PEPs 252 through 254


>> On the other the sum of language constructs is growing and harder to
>> understand as a complete system.
> 
> Not even Scheme stayed *braindead* austere forever, you know <wink>.

That's why fresh, small languages are designed sometimes... <wink>

> BTW, I agree with Paul that this has nothing to do with the PEP process.  
See my response to him and Barry. 
Maybe my subject of the original was suboptimal, but there is some connection
and I had to start expression what my concern is somewhere.

	Bernhard
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