Flushing stdout with raw_input - BUG

Michael Hudson mwh at python.net
Wed Mar 6 16:58:21 CET 2002


Jonathan Gardner <jgardn at alumni.washington.edu> writes:

> Michael Hudson scribbled with his keyboard:
> > Jonathan Gardner <jgardn at alumni.washington.edu> writes:
> > 
> >> I will write
> >> another bug report about the unresponsiveness to bug reports as well, as
> >> there are a lot of bugs that aren't even addressed at sourceforge.
> > 
> > Oh, that will help, sure.
> 
> It is a bug. There needs to be a fix for it. Do you need more volunteers? 
> How do we get involved? Where do we sign up? What needs to be done? Maybe 
> there needs to be more coordination and less coding at the top.

Here I was just trying to point out the irony of a bug report saying
"there are too many bug reports".

> I did a semi-thorough investigation on the matter, and there really isn't 
> much information on how I make the move from being a python user to a 
> developer. Apparently it's by invitation only. Do I just keep submitting 
> bugs and patches and opinions and eventually someone will notice me

More or less, yes.

> or do I have a place where I can stand up and say, "HEY! I WANT TO
> HELP! WHAT DO I DO?"

I think you'll find shouting only annoys people.

> > Please note that Python is a volunteer effort.  You have no right to
> > expect bug reports to be attended to.
> > 
> 
> I can expect what I want. I have no right to see my expectations fulfilled, 
> unless I do the fulfilling.

Yeah, whatever.

> I understand that it is a volunteer effort. I am constantly appreciative of 
> the effort you and others are putting into it. 
> (http://sf.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=154889)
> 
> However, we can't go around saying Python is substandard because it is a 
> volunteer effort. We should be saying we are held to a higher standard 
> because we are a volunteer effort. Unlike Java or C#, we actually have to 
> perform, because we don't have a huge advertising fund and pushy 
> salespeople.
> 
> >
> > However, they are.  I know *I* scan through open bugs fairly
> > regularly.  Martin von Loewis does the same.  I can only fix the bugs
> > I have time to fix, and so fix the bugs that seem to me to be worth
> > fixing.  I've spent multiple hours in just the past few days with my
> > head stuck deep in the Python internals, and TBH posts like this do
> > not make me think it was worth it.
> > 
> 
> The way I was tutored was that getting a bug report was a *good* thing. 

A good bug report is a good thing.  I don't know if you realised it,
but your reports seemed to me to have a somewhat aggrieved, almost
aggressive, tone.  That is no help in a bug report.

> Anybody who thinks there are no bugs or few bugs should be shot. A
> programmer should appreciate a well-written bug report 

As Tim Peters once said, this editor doesn't go backwards :)

> because it helps improve the code and lets him spend more time
> coding and less time testing.
> 
> I tried to be strikingly clear, because this has been brought up
> before and it seemed to have been regarded as unimportant. I wanted
> to emphasize that at least in my opinion it is important, and
> shouldn't be shoveled off to the side.

Fair enough.  I think you may have gone unecessarily far in this
direction.

> And TBH, are you doing this for yourself or for us? If you are doing
> it for us lusers who are unappreciative and consistently complaining
> and calling features bugs, then I am surprised you are still around.

I'm doing it to make Python a better product.

> > If you are interacting with a subprocess that is expecting to talk to
> > a user, you should probably be using pseudo-tty's.
> >
> 
> That is a very good answer that I didn't think of. I did a search on Google 
> and came up with the expect module for python located at 
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/expectpy/ 
> 
> Still, not quite what I was looking for, but since C seems to do exactly 
> what Python is doing, then maybe I need to help them at pyexpect and forget 
> about making Python behave differently from C. That way, there won't be 
> that nasty gotcha when they go and run a C program. I think I'll stop 
> complaining about raw_input and start working with the expectpy group.

If you'd been a little more dispassionate in your first post
(e.g. "I'm having this problem ... is it a bug that python does it
this way? ... is there a better way?") you might have got this answer
without me spending way too long thinking about the philosophies of
open source delevopment.  Or maybe you'd have got that anyway -- I
seem to be unusually cranky today :)

pseudo-terminals aren't the easiest things in the world to use.  Just
caring about linux probably makes life easier.  If you have problems,
I'm sure help can be found here...

Cheers,
M.

-- 
  ZAPHOD:  You know what I'm thinking?
    FORD:  No.
  ZAPHOD:  Neither do I.  Frightening isn't it?
                   -- The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy, Episode 11



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