Python syntax in Lisp and Scheme

[Doug Tolton]

Kenny Tilton wrote:
> 
> 
> Andrew Dalke wrote:
> 
>> Kenny Tilton:
>>
>>> I wouldn't take the Greenspun crack too seriously. That's about
>>> applications recreating Lisp, not languages copying Lisp features.
>>
>>
>>
>> Are you stating that all references of Greenspun's 10th rule,
>> when applied to Python, are meant in jest? 
> 
> 
> Can't speak for others, but it certainly would be a mistake to apply it 
> to another HLL.
> 
> 
>> Python isn't doing that.  It's lives in a perfectly good niche wherein
>> Lisp is not the most appropriate language.
> 
> 
> OK, another Pythonista just told me GVR had greater ambitions. Just 
> tellin ya what I hear.
> 
> 
> 
>>> You presume that only Lisp gurus can learn Lisp because of the syntax.
>>
>>
>>
>> Not at all.  What I said is that Lisp gurus are self-selected to be
>> the ones who don't find the syntax to be a problem.  You incorrectly
>> assumed the converse to be true.
> 
> 
> No, I got that, but I just wrote it kinda convoluted. And that 
> self-selection thing is just silly, until people over here:
> 
>    http://alu.cliki.net/Kenny's%20RtLS%20Top-Ten
> 
> ...come back in a month and update their responses to say "Drat! That 
> language is every bit as great as I thought it was, but that syntax is 
> driving me nuts. I'm outtahere!"
> 
> Won't happen, btw. Hell, Tolton loved Lisp even before he picked up some 
> editing tips.
> 
> You know, I just remembered a relevant experience I had, only with a 
> very early release of Dylan during the search I conducted which led to 
> Common Lisp, aka The Promised Land.
> 
> I actually made a bug report to the Dylan team: "hey, when I hit tab the 
> cursor jumps way the hell out here, just inside the IF. I mean, that's 
> pretty fucking cool if you meant that to happen, but what's going on?"
> 
> :)
> 
> 
>>
>>
>>> But methinks a number of folks using Emacs Elisp and Autocad's embedded
>>> Lisp are non-professionals.
>>
>>
>>
>> Methinks there are a great many more people using the VBA
>> interface to AutoCAD than its Lisp interface.  In fact, my friends
>> (ex-Autodesk) told me that's the case.
> 
> 
> Sheesh, who hasn't been exposed to basic? From my generation, that is. 
> :) But no matter, the point is anyone can handled parens if they try for 
> more than an hour.
> 
> 
>> What does it mean to be "a Lisp"?  Is Python considered "a Lisp"
>> for some definitions of Lisp?
> 
> 
> lessee:
> 
> symbols? no
> sexprs? no
> code as data as code? no
> 
> sorry, charlie.
> 
> 
>>> You (Alex?) also worry about groups of programmers and whether what is
>>> good for the gurus will be good for the lesser lights.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you ever hear me call anyone who is not an expert programmer
>> a "lesser light" then I give you -- or anyone else here -- permission
>> to smack me cross-side the head.
> 
> 
> Boy, you sure can read a lot into a casually chosen cliche. But can we 
> clear up once and for all whether these genius scientists are or are not 
> as good a programmer as you? I thought I heard Python being recommended 
> as better for non-professional programmers.
> 
> Mind you, to my horror my carefully trained goalie turned out not to 
> scale at all into game play (my fault) so i am back to square one with 
> two days to go, so maybe I am not following all this as well as I should.
> 
> 

I will admit getting those editing key strokes was pretty dang nice.

Although I have been doing my coding in Emacs all along. :)

-- 
Doug Tolton
(format t "~a@~a~a.~a" "dtolton" "ya" "hoo" "com")