python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15

[Paul McGuire]

"Brett Cannon" <bac at OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:mailman.2274.1093330945.5135.python-list at python.org...
> python-dev Summary for 2004-08-01 through 2004-08-15
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from
> August 01, 2004 through August 15, 2004.  It is intended to inform the
> wider Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment
> on anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email
> python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a
> subject line mentioning what you are discussing.

< my emphasis>

> All python-dev members
> are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't
> hesitate to take a stance on something.

<snip>

> OK, tirade time.  If you don't want to listen to me get up on my
> soapbox, then just skip the rest of this...
>
> "In the old days, Guido would Pronounce, and we'd all bite our tongues
> (although not necessarily each his own).  The less time Guido can make
> for Python, the more important becomes graceful capitulation."  Tim said
> this and it makes me wish for the old days.  People had *months* to
> comment on decorators and no one spoke up until something went into the
> language.  Procrastination is not a virtue when it comes to major
> language evolution discussions.  What was worse was when the emails
> started repeating themselves (which was pretty much from the get-go when
> this exploded).  Seemed like people decided to start talking without
> doing some research.  Granted the PEP was outdated and the wiki page was
> not up yet, but this stuff was covered in the Summaries before and you
> could have just Googled for the previous threads.
>
> Personally, if I was Guido, I would have said that the community had
> their chance to speak up and they just didn't take it.  But Guido is a
> nicer guy than that so people are getting a second chance with this.
> Personally this came off a great case of the tyranny of the majority in
> my eyes.  There is a reason why Python is a dictatorship.
>

"Well, then allow me to retort."

Up until PyCon in June, Guido was publicly leaning toward a C1-flavor of
decorator syntax.  Apparently, there was sufficient furor by some audience
members (not to quibble whether or not this group was in fact representative
of all Python users) that Guido dropped back from it.  Sometime in June,
@decorator seemed to drop from the sky - it was not even one of the top 2
that GvR had in his keynote presentation - and by late July, it was suddenly
to be found in the newly released 2.4a2.

I guess my sin of omission was in not following python-dev directly, but
instead relying on the natural checks and balances that have produced the
beautiful Python language thus far.  Despite the periodic reporting of
python-dev summaries (thank you! BTW), and the April and June summaries of
the decorator status, *not one* of these summaries announced the selection
of "@decorator" before it was checked in and released - making it a seeming
fait accompli.  Contrast with the announcement of 'Generator expressions are
in!' in your May summary, well in advance of the 2.4a release.

> At this point people should be hashing out which syntax alternative they
> want to present to Guido on comp.lang.python_.  No more talking on
> python-dev, no more syntax proposals.  The community should set a goal
> date (Sept. 1 seems good) and just choose a bloody alternative.  Then
> when Guido makes his choice people accept it or just go to another
> language.  No one had better voice their disappoint once Guido chooses
> his syntax or I will personally come beat you over with a stick for
> being a whiner.
>

Um, where have you been?  It seemed to me that, instead of continued
wallowing in a chaos of syntax discussions, that we collectively *were*
working on "just choosing a bloody alternative."  I guess we've not been
wholly successful, as there are still *two* popular contenders, but one is
leading the other by more than 2-to-1, and a consensus measure shows an even
greater level of, if not acceptance, at least tolerance.  c.l.py is a tough
herd of cats!  Michael Sparks and Robert Brewer have voted in a measure
beyond simply posting Usenet votes, and have completed the steps for one of
the contenders to be considered by Guido.  The absence of champions for the
other option may end up making the decision by default - too bad, actually.

> OK, that's out of my system.  I feel better now.
>

Well, good for you.  I also subscribe to a "no whining" philosophy, but I
don't think it is unexpected nor unreasonable that the rapid selection,
implementation, and release of "@decorator" took many by (unpleasant)
surprise.  And am I the only one who has trouble reconciling your tirade
with your encouragement to "take a stance" (in the emphasized section at
top)?

We can agree to disagree - I'll plead guilty to being a miserable lurker who
up until recently was happy to rely on the wisdom of strangers - but allow
me to take at least a little umbrage at your tirade.

-- Paul