python-dev Summary for 2004-06-01 through 2004-06-15

[Brett Cannon]

python-dev Summary for 2004-06-01 through 2004-06-15
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is a summary of traffic on the `python-dev mailing list`_ from June 
01, 2004 through June 15, 2004.  It is intended to inform the wider 
Python community of on-going developments on the list.  To comment on 
anything mentioned here, just post to `comp.lang.python`_ (or email 
python-list at python.org which is a gateway to the newsgroup) with a 
subject line mentioning what you are discussing. All python-dev members 
are interested in seeing ideas discussed by the community, so don't 
hesitate to take a stance on something.  And if all of this really 
interests you then get involved and join `python-dev`_!

This is the forty-third summary written by Brett Cannon (wonder if that 
summary
count is correct?).

To contact me, please send email to brett at python.org ; I do not have 
the time to keep up on comp.lang.python and thus do not always catch 
follow-ups posted there.

All summaries are archived at http://www.python.org/dev/summary/ .

Please note that this summary is written using reStructuredText_ which 
can be found at http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html .  Any unfamiliar 
punctuation is probably markup for reST_ (otherwise it is probably 
regular expression syntax or a typo =); you can safely ignore it, 
although I suggest learning reST; it's simple and is accepted for `PEP 
markup`_ and gives some perks for the HTML output.  Also, because of the 
wonders of programs that like to reformat text, I cannot guarantee you 
will be able to run the text version of this summary through Docutils_ 
as-is unless it is from the `original text file`_.

.. _PEP Markup: http://www.python.org/peps/pep-0012.html

The in-development version of the documentation for Python can be found at
http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/ and should be used when looking up any
documentation on new code; otherwise use the current documentation as 
found at
http://docs.python.org/ .  PEPs (Python Enhancement Proposals) are 
located at http://www.python.org/peps/ .  To view files in the Python 
CVS online, go to http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/python/ 
.  Reported bugs and suggested patches can be found at the SourceForge_ 
project page.

The `Python Software Foundation`_ is the non-profit organization that 
holds the intellectual property for Python.  It also tries to forward 
the development and use of Python.  But the PSF_ cannot do this without 
donations.  You can make a donation at 
http://python.org/psf/donations.html .  Every penny helps so even a 
small donation (you can donate through PayPal or by check) helps.

.. _python-dev: http://www.python.org/dev/
.. _SourceForge: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=5470
.. _python-dev mailing list: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
.. _comp.lang.python: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=comp.lang.python
.. _Docutils: http://docutils.sf.net/
.. _reST:
.. _reStructuredText: http://docutils.sf.net/rst.html
.. _PSF:
.. _Python Software Foundation: http://python.org/psf/

.. contents::

.. _last summary: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-06-01_2004-06-15.html
.. _original text file: 
http://www.python.org/dev/summary/2004-06-01_2004-06-15.ht



Summary Announcements
=====================
Wow, two summaries written in a single week.  Hell has not frozen over, 
don't worry; work has just not started yet.  =)

Summaries
=========
--------------------------------
New PEP on bytecode verification
--------------------------------
As it stands now, unless you are running a debug build of Python, there 
are no checks that the bytecode being executed by the interpreter is 
valid.  It is not terribly difficult to crash the interpreter with 
blatently invalid bytecode.

In an attempt to resolve this, `PEP 330`_ has been written in hopes of 
coming up with a Python module in the stdlib that can have bytecode 
passed to it and attempt to perform some basic verification on it.

.. _PEP 330: http://python.org/peps/pep-0330.html

Contributing threads:
   - `PEP 330 Python bytecode verification 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045082.html>`__

--------------------
2.4a1 coming up soon
--------------------
Python 2.4a1 should be coming out early July.  If you have some bugs or 
patches you want to see in 2.4 then read Anthony's announcement for 
general guidelines on how to go about this.

Jeremy Hylton pointed out that since the AST branch did not make it in 
before this announcement it would not be included in 2.4 (thus 
guaranteeing a sprint topic for PyCON 2005).  Generator expressions 
*are* in this alpha with late bindings.  If late bindings work out for 
you, or if you have an explicit use case in working code for early 
bindings, please speak up.

Contributing threads:
   - `pre-announce: Python 2.4a1 is about a month away 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-May/045028.html>`__

--------------------------------------------------
The shaky courtship of 2.4 and function decorators
--------------------------------------------------
With 2.4a1 ominously approaching on the horizon, Guido asked what people 
thought of holding off on including function decorators for 2.5.  Some 
people said to put it in and if that meant using Guido's then so be it. 
  Others said to wait and let Guido have more time since he wanted to 
consider Java 1.5's syntax.

Guido said he would ask at EuroPython_ for more opinions.

.. _EuroPython: http://www.europython.org/

Contributing threads:
   - `functions decorators in 2.4? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045124.html>`__
   - `Dropping decorator syntax for 2.4? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045125.html>`__

-----------------------------------------------------------
Why Stackless is not about to be incorporated into the core
-----------------------------------------------------------
Someone asked why Stackless_ is still not part of the Python core. 
After a bunch of talking, Guido spelled out a couple of reasons.  One 
was a lack of a clear spec; if it is not obvious how it will behave it 
can't go in.  Another was whether it could reasonably work on Jython; 
Python the language needs to be portable enough to be coded in C or 
Java.  A third point was not wanting to rely on platform hacks in order 
for something to work; Stackless doesn't use the C stack and that can 
complicate things (and Guido put longjmp() from ISO C in this category 
so don't ever think of using it in a patch).

In other words Stackless is not going to be integrated into the core at 
this time.

.. _Stackless: http://www.stackless.com/

Contributing threads:
   - `Stackless Python 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045074.html>`__
   - `Re: Stackless Python 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045098.html>`__

------------------------------------------------------
Remember, some stdlib modules are maintained elsewhere
------------------------------------------------------
Greg Ward reminded python-dev that optparse is maintained as Optik_ and 
as a separate project.  Some other modules are also maintained like 
this, so it is something to keep an eye out for if you are writing 
patches or reporting a bug.

.. _Optik: http://optik.sf.net/

Contributing threads:
   - `Reminder: optparse.py is auto-generated 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045176.html>`__

--------------
Python Bug Day
--------------
The First Python Bug Day took place on June 5th, led by AM Kuchling. 
The end results are listed at 
http://www.python.org/moin/PythonBugDayStatus and look very good.

Since SF troubles cropped up during the day (both frustration with 
people not being able to add files to bugs and patches created by other 
people and SF CVS going down), discussion of getting off of SF came up 
(this was also mentioned in several other minor threads).  The desire to 
host off-site were brought up, but the issue of having enough volunteers 
to handle the load of managing a CVS or Subbversion repository was 
brought up.  Also moving over to Roundup or GForge on a server under our 
control was also brought up.  Nothing looks like it is going to happen 
any time soon, though (at least not until 2.4 is out the door).

The next Bug Day has been tentatively scheduled for July 10.

Contributing threads:
   - `Python bug day? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045090.html>`__
   - `Bug day outcome 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045235.html>`__

----------------------------------------------------------
What it takes to have something to support weak references
----------------------------------------------------------
(should have been in last summary)
Why don't strings and such support weak references?  Turns out that 
variable-sized objects (i.e., tp_itemsize specified) cannot support them 
without direct support hard-coded in the struct.  Since it would require 
more space and extra code for deallocation (and thus incur a performance 
penalty) for such common types as strings and tuples, it was decided 
that for such an infrequently used ability (at least in this case) it 
would not be worth the cost of adding support.

Contributing threads:
   - `Why aren't more things weak referencable 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-May/045006.html>`__

-------------------------
Heterogeneous comparisons
-------------------------
The list was reminded that in the future at some point, comparisons 
between heterogeneous types will raise TypeError except for '==' and 
'!='.  This brought up the discussion of comparing floats to longs. 
Guido said he is going to make sure that they can still be compared 
without issue (part of the reason true division was introduced).  People 
talked about the best way to go about it, but it was mostly just talk 
since this is not about to go into the core.

Contributing threads:
   - `Comparing heterogeneous types 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045111.html>`__

-----------------------
Finalizing Decimal type
-----------------------
Facundo Batista posted an email summing up the last nagging features for 
the Decimal type and `PEP 327`_.  He said he would post an updated PEP 
(which he has done) and get input from Tim Peters.  Looks like this is 
almost in!

.. _PEP 327: http://python.org/peps/pep-0327.html

Contributing threads:
   - `Decimal issues - Conclusion 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045209.html>`__

---------------
Free Icon books
---------------
Tim Peters posted links to links to PDFs of three significant books on 
Icon_ (see the email for the links).

Why would Python programmers care about the Icon programming language? 
Well, Python got the idea of generators from Icon.  Plus it never hurts 
to know more languages, if anything just for new ideas for Python or to 
be able to emphatically state Python is better.  =)

Also, the book, 'The Icon Programming Language', is essentially the 
*only* book describing how a scripting language that is non-trivial is 
implemented.

.. _Icon: http://www.cs.arizona.edu/icon/

Contributing threads:
   - `Free Icon books 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045231.html>`__

----------------------------------------
Documenting undocumented C API functions
----------------------------------------
Thomas Heller updated Doc/tools/undoc_symbols.py (which finds out what C 
API code is undocumented) and ran it.  The list of undocumented C code 
is listed at 
http://starship.python.net/crew/theller/moin.cgi/Documenting_25CorePythonApiFunctions 
.  If you would like to help with documenting, helping with documenting 
what is listed at the wiki would be great.

Contributing threads:
   - `undocumented api functions 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045308.html>`__

---------------------------------------------
Tool for side-by-side diffs outputted in HTML
---------------------------------------------
http://www.python.org/sf/914575 has a patch that adds the necessary code 
and a tool script for side-by-side diffs using difflib that output in a 
nice HTML format.  While the code has not been accepted yet, I 
personally know how useful this functionality can be so I thought I 
would just let people know about the code.

And if you find this code helpful, then doing a code review and adding a 
comment on the patch would be helpful in getting the code accepted, 
especially after the author gets his next patch uploaded.

Contributing threads:
   - `Side by Side Differencing Patch 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045304.html>`__
   - `HTML side by side diff patch 914575 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045361.html>`__

-----------------------------------
Removing CLRFs in PCbuild directory
-----------------------------------
Martin v. Lowis fixed the vcproj files in the PCbuild directory to have 
the proper line endings.  Problem is that you must run ``cvs update -A`` 
on your PCbuild directory to add the -kb tag on the files since it is a 
sticky tag.

Contributing threads:
   - `Changing PCBuild/*.vcproj to text mode 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045401.html>`__

--------------------------------------------------------
Bounding free list creation for ints and such ain't easy
--------------------------------------------------------
Bounding the size of the memory used by ints and other built-ins that 
have a custom allocator was brought up.  The suggestion of moving them 
to pymalloc was suggested, but it was pointed out it would make it 
slower and waste more space on some platforms.  And the ideas on how to 
deal with this all seemed difficult.  No code was committed in the end.

Contributing threads:
   - `Object free lists 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045403.html>`__

-------------------------------------
How to search the python-dev archives
-------------------------------------
One idea is to use gmane.org to do your searches since they index the 
mailing list.  The one that I (and apparently Tim Peters) use is to do a 
Google search with ``site:mail.python.org python-dev`` at the beginning. 
  I actually search the python-dev archives using the same technique; 
``site:www.python.org "python-dev Summary"``.

Contributing threads:
   - `python-dev archive searching ? 
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2004-June/045325.html>`__