up with PyGUI!

Alex Martelli aleaxit at yahoo.com
Thu Sep 16 09:11:48 CEST 2004

Jorge Godoy <godoy at ieee.org> wrote:

> aleaxit at yahoo.com (Alex Martelli) writes:
> > If you buy BlackAdder, it comes with PyQT and Qt licenses and is cheaper
> > than the Qt license for C++ development.  A great bargain even if you
> > never use the IDE itself (unless you also want to do C++ dev't).
> I saw that...  It is the most interesting offer on the product that I've
> seen.  The difference is a good one.  US$ 399.99...  PyQT alone costs
> 250.00 pounds sterling.  I don't know if I have to have a license of Qt
> too or if it is included with PyQT, I'd have to read more carefully to
> find it out or ask them that.

If you want to develop in C++ as well, you need a Qt license.  What you
get with BlackAdder comes with a license to redistribute only apps you
write in Python, not those you write in C++.

> Another calculation one should do is the ROI of such an investment.  So

That's the key one, of course.

> far, as I said in my previous message, the demand for it has not
> convinced me to buy it.  Yet.  And yes, I point it out as an option in
> some projects.

But if the customer buys it, rather than you, the ROI is going to be
lower.  They get a license to redistrib apps they won't ever write, and
you're back to the same issue on the next proj for another customer.  If
you buy the license, you can then redistrib to any or all of the many
customers you write apps for.

> If PyGUI will have native widgets for Windows as it does for Mac, I hope
> it becomes standard.  Its API seemed cleaner than wxPython's (and with
> one less emulation layer than wax, as pointed out on this thread...).

Yes.  It all depends on somebody wanting to scratch that particular
itch, as usual for opensource projects.

> I remember iBooks starting at something like US$ 2100.00...  That's more
> than half of the Dell :-)

iBooks start at about HALF what you remember.

> > I'm at the other end of the spectrum, with an iBook 12" ultraportable
> > which cost me, 9 months ago, roughly 1000, about 1/2 as much as the
> > closest comparable machine in the Windows world (an IBM Thinkpad X40).
> I wish we had those prices here...

I wish we had those prices here, too.  We don't, so I buy in the US: any
AppleStore there is happy to sell me an iBook, and Apple's warranty on
portable products is worldwide.  (And I far _prefer_  the US-layout
keyboard I get that way to an Italian-layout one -- US and Spanish are
the only layouts you can buy in the US).

Why Apple chooses to price stuff cheap in richer countries, US foremost,
and dearer the poorer the country, I dunno.

> > In this case, adding the $$$ for Visual Studio to the mix, vs the free
> > XCode I have here, would make the price comparison just ridiculous.
> Indeed.  But then, if you bought the other computer without Windows and
> added a free operating system -- you said you use Linux... --, with its
> development tools, then things would start being more comparable.

Indeed, Linux is what I run on desktops, and I go back with it to 0.92.
But on laptops all of my attempts haven't yet produced one that can deal
with 'sleep' properly, while on the iBook _it just works_, no hassles.

> > I wouldn't know where to find a good ultraportable 12" in the PC world
> > for this kind of prices -- and if I did, Linux wouldn't perfectly
> > support its "sleep" facilities, a key issue in ultraportable laptops.
> I've read somewhere about enhancements to this function in the most
> recent kernel.  I can't say anything about it, though, since I don't own
> a notebook.

I'll check it out eventually, since I do have a couple of old
intel-based notebooks.  But I've heard about such enhancements about
every release on the last few years so I'm not holding my breath.

> My machines here are 100% free and in the country where 60+% of the
> software is illegal, I'm very proud of saying that there's nothing
> without a proper license here :-)

That's very important -- piracy is pretty widespread in Southern Europe,
too, and from my POV what it does is first and foremost present unfair
competition to free software.

> Maybe I'm just talking about BlackAdder's/Qt's price because of this
> culture here or because I'm used to use free (as in free speech and in
> free beer ;-)) software...  But I really think that if it was cheaper it

Hmmm, but it seems that the main issue you have with Qt is that it's
free only if you DO use it on and for free software -- that's what the
GPL is all about.  If a free-software culture it's OK; in a
software=for=money culture it's OK; it seems to grate only on developers
who want not to pay for the software they use but still charge for the
software they sell.

> would be more used.  I have bought several software for my PDAs, some
> for my old mobile too...  
> If I had to pay something like 5 dollars for each copy of the software
> or something more expensive for a customized software (e.g. US$ 50.00,
> if I sell the product for less than US$ 10,000.00 and more than US$
> 1,000.00, US$ 500.00 if US$ 10,000.00 < my software price < US$
> 100,000.00, etc.) it would be more interesting from a commercial point
> of view and would also be easier to include such a cost at the product
> price.

Personally, I'm extremely happy that the culture of commercial software
is moving away from such complicated pricing schemes that were the norm
some years ago.  The attempt to reflect "what is this sw actually worth
to YOU" doesn't work, anyway.  I can have a 1000-$ program where, say,
Qt's functionality is actually 80% of what I'm doing -- a program that's
mostly-GUI... -- and I can have a 10000-$ one where the GUI matters very
marginally, say the program is mostly about clever heuristic engines
scavenging through DBs and networks and all I want is a little sysadm
GUI console on the side for a customer's sysadm to keep an eye on

> Of course, I'm looking at my side, they found that their business model
> is different and I must either accept it or not use it.  For now, not
> using it -- even liking more the appearance of the widgets -- has been
> my choice.

It's definitely your choice.  I do hope you get some opportunity to do
GPL development and try it out, because I think it's really good.

> I guess I deviated a lot from the original intention of the post, and
> I'm sorry for that.  It wasn't my intention.  I just wanted to see the
> toolkit on the OSs it supports :-)

If you're looking for a native appearance on Windows, as I understand
things, you won't get it with PyGUI until somebody makes a back-end...


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