pygame and python 2.5

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Sun, 11 Feb 2007 01:08:21 -0800, mensanator at aol.com wrote:

>> An update is in the works for those
>> using more recent releases,
> 
> That's good news, although the responsible thing
> to do was not relaease version 2.5 until such issues
> are resolved.

I realize you're a Windows user, and a Windows user with an AOL email
address at that, so it may come as a shock to learn that the computer
industry doesn't start and finish on Windows. I don't see why the needs of
Windows users like yourself should come ahead of the needs of users on Mac
OS, Linux, Solaris, etc.



>> but that won't help users who don't have
>> access to Visual Studio.
> 
> That can be solved by throwing money at the problem.
> But money doesn't help when the solution is on the
> far side of the moon.

You're mixing metaphors and I don't understand what you mean.


>> >> Yes, it's
>> >> occasionally very frustrating to the rest of us, but that's life.
>>
>> > As the Kurds are well aware.
>>
>> I really don't think you help your argument by trying to draw parallels
>> between the problems of compiler non-availability and those of a
>> population subject to random genocide.
> 
> You missed the point of the analogy.
> 
> The US government suggested to the oppressed tribes
> in Iraq that they should rise up and overthrow
> Saddam Hussein at the end of the first Gulf War.
> And what did the US government do when they rose up?
> Nothing. They were left to twist in the wind.

Both the southern Iraqis (mostly so-called "marsh Arabs" and Shiites) and
the northern Kurds rose up against Saddam Hussein. After the Kurdish
rebellion failed, the US and UK belatedly provided them with aid, lots of
aid, and kept the northern no-fly zone going until it was no longer
relevant (2003, the second invasion of Iraq).

It was the southern Iraqis who were left to be slaughtered. Although
technically there was a no-fly zone in the south, it wasn't enforced
when it really counted -- while the rebellion was in full force, the
Iraqi government asked the US for permission to fly into the south.
Permission was given, and the Iraq air force used combat aircraft against
the rebels. Unlike the Kurds, they got no aid, neither money nor military
support.

The end result was that the southern Iraqs were hung out to dry, while the
Kurds ended up a virtually independent state-within-a-state, with their
own "government", their own army, and US and British aircraft protecting
them.


>> Try to keep things in perspective, please.
> 
> See if you can see the similarity.
> 
> I buy into Python. I spend a lot of effort
> developing a math library based on GMPY to use
> in my research. I discover a bug in GMPY and
> actually go to a lot of effort and solve it.

Good on you, and I'm not being sarcastic. But do try to keep a bit of
perspective. Whatever your problem, you're not being bombed or shot.
Frankly, the fact that you not only came up with the analogy, but continue
to defend it, suggests an over-active sense of your own entitlement. 


> But _I_ can't even use it because I've been
> left to twist in the wind by the fact that
> Python 2.5 for Windows was built with an
> obsolete compiler that's not even available.
> Luckily, unlike the Kurds, my situation had
> a happy ending, someone else compiled the fixed
> GMPY source and made a 2.5 Windows version
> available. But can anyone say what will happen
> the next time?

Get yourself a compiler, then you won't be relying on the kindness of
strangers.

If that's not practical, for whatever reason, then remember: you're
relying on the kindness of strangers. They don't owe you a thing. If
anything, you owe them.


[snip]
>> Your efforts would probably be far better spent trying to build a
>> back-end for mingw or some similar system into Python's development
>> system, to allow Python for Windows to be built on a regular rather than
>> a one-off basis using a completely open source tool chain.
> 
> No, as I said elsewhere, I'm not a software developer,
> I'm an amateur math researcher. My efforts are best spent
> as an actual end user 

If you won't scratch your own itch, don't be surprised if nobody else
cares enough to scratch it for you.


> to find and report bugs that the
> developers never see. Remember, a programmer, because he
> wrote it, only _thinks_ he knows how the program works.
> Whereas I, the user, _know_ how it works.

Oh wow. That's the most audacious, self-involved and sheer arrogant claim
I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot of nonsense sprouted by arrogant
know-nothings with delusions of grandeur. For the sake of your
credibility, I hope you can support that claim.


[snip]
>> It's much harder than sniping on a newsgroup,
> 
> That figures. You try and contribute and you get
> accused of being a troll.

"I have a problem. I demand that somebody fix it for me!" is hardly
contributing.

If you don't have the technical skills to fix it yourself, have you
considered putting hand in pocket and paying a software developer to do
it? It might even come out cheaper than buying a commercial compiler, and
it would help others. That should appeal to somebody as altruistic as you.


> > but you earn rather more kudos.
> 
> Guess what kudos I got for solving the GMPY divm()
> problem? None. How much effort would it have been
> to mention my contribution in the source code
> comments (as was the case for other contributers)?
> Not that I'm bitter, after all, I'm altruistic.

Naturally.


> By the way, on the sci.math newsgroup I promote
> Python every chance I get.

That's mighty big of you.


> One fellow thanked me
> profusely for recommending Python & GMPY and asked
> for some help with a program he was having problems
> with. We worked it out fine but his problem made me
> suspect there may be more bugs in GMPY. What's my
> motivation for tracking them down?

Because you want the bugs fixed so you can get on with whatever coding you
want to do.

Because you're altruistic.

Because you want people to know how clever you are.

Are those enough reasons?



-- 
Steven.