Py 2.5 on Language Shootout

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

On 20 Jan 2007 11:34:46 -0800, Isaac Gouy <igouy at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Ramon Diaz-Uriarte wrote:
> > On 1/20/07, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
> > > pgarrone at acay.com.au wrote:
> > >  >>> Looking over the benchmarks, one gains the impression that Python is a
> > >  >>> slow language.
> > >  >> What does that even mean - a slow language?
> > >  >>
> > >  >
> > >  > The alioth benchmarks provide a set of numbers by which
> > >  > languages may be compared.
> > >
> > > Wrong. The benchmarks provide a set of numbers by which
> > > _implementations_ of languages can be compared. After all, it is
> > > possible that someone implements a magic-pixie-dust-interpreter that
> > > executes Python programs several orders of magnitude fastes than
> > > CPython. Or you could say that C is slow because if you use CINT, a C
> > > interpreter ( http://root.cern.ch/root/Cint.html ) to execute it, it is
> > > slow.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but this is hair-splitting. Except for Jython, IronPython, and
> > Stackless, I think when we say "Python is slow/fast" we think CPython
> > (otherwise, we qualify the implementation). For that matter it is
> > often said "the GIL ..."; oh, but wait, Stackless ...
>
> When we say "Python is slow/fast" what does "slow/fast" mean?
>

Oh, well, I have no idea. I guess you'd have to define what "speed"
and, if that is a single number, then we can just rank languages. We'd
probably never agree on how to obtain a single number. But I think
most of us, when looking at the shootout, can see that there are some
languages that, for most of the programs, are consistently faster than
the rest, and others that are consistently slower. But really, I think
the shootout page has large, detailed and <b></b> statements about the
perils and pitfalls of measuring these things. (And I do not go to the
shootout to hear the oracle tell me which language I should use in my
next project).



>
> >
> > With other languages (e.g., Common Lisp) the separation between the
> > language and the implementation is key because, to begin with, there
> > is something external from, and independent of, any particular
> > implementation. That is not the case with Python.
> >
> > And the example of CINT is hair-splitting to the nth power.To begin
> > with, I do not think CINT implements the full standard C. But even if
> > it were, when people think of C they rarely think of CINT.
>
> And that's why the existence of CINT is such a stark reminder of the
> separation between the language and the implementation. When people
> think of C what do they think of - gcc? tiny-c? intel c? microsoft c?
> some mythical C implementation?
>
>

Really, this ain't my war. Sure, there are two things: the language
and the implementation. But, for practical purposes, when most people
today say Python they mean CPython, whereas if the say Scheme, they
certainly need to say _which_ Scheme (I think only PLT is in the
official shootout page; there are others in the beta tests). If people
want to mean Jython or Stackless, they just say that. As for C, I
think people will need to qualify what exactly they mean.

I think all these issues do not really lead to confusion for most of
us; certainly not if you go to the shootout page. But as I said, this
ain't my war. I was simply pointing out that correcting one poster for
talking about languages when referring to python was hair splitting.

And I think we are all running in circles, because I guess we all
agree. This is turning into what in Spain (a country of catholic
tradition) we call a discussion about "the sex of the angels" (el sexo
de los angeles), i.e., whether angels are male or female or something
else. Since sexing angels is not my area of expertise, I'll just shut
up (I actually don't really know why I even said anything about this
issue; please, forgive my chatiness).

Best,

R.


> >
> > I think readers understood the previous poster.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > R.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Carl Friedrich Bolz
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
> > Statistical Computing Team
> > Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
> > Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
> > http://ligarto.org/rdiaz
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Statistical Computing Team
Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
http://ligarto.org/rdiaz